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John David Benson | Forum Activity | Posted: Thu, Nov 11 2010 4:28 PM

I am a Bible student.  I am writing two papers this semester which require an ability to search for certain binyan in the OT.  Could someone tell me the cheapest way I might accomplish this?

Thank-you for your time

 

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Rich DeRuiter | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 11 2010 4:49 PM

John David Benson:

I am a Bible student.  I am writing two papers this semester which require an ability to search for certain binyan in the OT.  Could someone tell me the cheapest way I might accomplish this?

Thank-you for your time

I had to look up the word "binyan" since I hadn't seen nor heard it before. What you want to do is search for instances of Hebrew roots (consonant roots, without vowel pointing).

This would be a challenge, I think, since Logos has the ability to search lemma (dictionary form), but not roots. What you would need, then is a list of the lemma based on the root so that you could search all of them.

The ability to do this kind of search is a request I have been making from Logos for a long time. I hope this can be done, but apart from the above suggestion, I don't know of a way to do this directly in Logos. Perhaps someone with more knowledge about how to do this, one of our Hebrew wizzes, will chime in and correct my ignorance, and solve your problem.

 Help links: WIKI;  Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)

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Donnie Hale | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 11 2010 5:16 PM

Richard DeRuiter:

This would be a challenge, I think, since Logos has the ability to search lemma (dictionary form), but not roots. What you would need, then is a list of the lemma based on the root so that you could search all of them.

I have a question related to your comment about lemma vs. root. The Logos glossary entry for "lemma" implies that it's nearly synonymous with "root". Could you elaborate a bit on how they're not synonymous? I want to understand the limitations I face when I do a lemma search, based on your comments. Also, when I do a lemma search, will it find words based on that lemma of any form (nouns, verbs, etc. - assuming I don't do a morphological search)?

Thanks (and apologies if this is too off-topic for this thread),

Donnie

 

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Rich DeRuiter | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 11 2010 5:26 PM

Donnie Hale:
I have a question related to your comment about lemma vs. root . . .

The lemma is the dictionary form. The root is a linguistic term that refers to something a bit more basic than that. An example is agape (n) and agapao (v). In Logos you can only search for one at a time. It's possible to do something different by searching for "agap*" but (depending on the word) that can give unintended results. Further, it would miss compounds formed with prepositions. [Please note that you'd need to search these in Greek, not by simply typing in an English transliteration.]

No this is not an off-topic thread, since it's about using Logos to do what we want to do. This is very on-topic.

 Help links: WIKI;  Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)

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Donnie Hale | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 11 2010 5:52 PM

Following up on your example, if I found the word "agape", it would have a different lemma than that for "agapao" (since almost by definition, their dictionary forms have to be different as different parts of speech). And if I used those lemmas in a search, I wouldn't find uses of the other in the results. Is that correct?

Can I overcome that, at least to a degree, by using an OR in the search? So if I have a good list of related lemmas, I can find all of those at once?

Thanks again,

Donnie

 

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Rich DeRuiter | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 11 2010 6:43 PM

Donnie Hale:

Following up on your example, if I found the word "agape", it would have a different lemma than that for "agapao" (since almost by definition, their dictionary forms have to be different as different parts of speech). And if I used those lemmas in a search, I wouldn't find uses of the other in the results. Is that correct?

Can I overcome that, at least to a degree, by using an OR in the search? So if I have a good list of related lemmas, I can find all of those at once?

Thanks again,

Donnie

Yes that is correct and your solution should work.

I wish that Logos gave us an option to search for root words, but I know that this would require some time-intensive programing and/or database building to do it. It's an option I'd be glad to pay for.

 Help links: WIKI;  Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)

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Donnie Hale | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 11 2010 7:16 PM

Richard DeRuiter:

I wish that Logos gave us an option to search for root words, but I know that this would require some time-intensive programing and/or database building to do it. It's an option I'd be glad to pay for.

Another question: Can you at least find the root word in Logos, given a lemma? Is that basically going to BDAG or TDNT or some resource like that? I guess what I want to make sure I understand is how I know I'm looking at a root word in some resource that contains them (versus a lemma - those are pretty obvious in reverse interlinears).

Thanks so much,

Donnie

 

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tom | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 12 2010 5:12 AM

Richard DeRuiter:
I wish that Logos gave us an option to search for root words, but I know that this would require some time-intensive programing and/or database building to do it. It's an option I'd be glad to pay for.
Yes

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Rich DeRuiter | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 12 2010 7:16 AM

Donnie Hale:
Another question: Can you at least find the root word in Logos, given a lemma? Is that basically going to BDAG or TDNT or some resource like that? I guess what I want to make sure I understand is how I know I'm looking at a root word in some resource that contains them (versus a lemma - those are pretty obvious in reverse interlinears).

TDNT usually attempts to provide a primitive root word and etymology, but it is often quite speculative and unreliable in that. On the other hand, TDNT does tend to group words together, providing at least a partial list of words derived from the same root, and that is quite helpful. BDAG doesn't do this.

There are a few resources that do this, though I'm not sure how many, if any are in Logos. I have a little paperback by Metzger that does some of this, but I can't even remember the name of that right now.

 Help links: WIKI;  Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)

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fgh | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 12 2010 12:03 PM

For anyone who doesn't know, here is where you can vote for this: http://logos.uservoice.com/forums/42823-logos-bible-software-4/suggestions/682641-stem-cognate-search?ref=title

"The Christian way of life isn't so much an assignment to be performed, as a gift to be received."  Wilfrid Stinissen

Mac Pro OS 10.9.

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Rich DeRuiter | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 12 2010 12:15 PM

fgh:

For the way I work with Logos, I'd put all ten of my votes here, if I could.

 Help links: WIKI;  Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)

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Wayne M. Pask | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 12 2010 2:36 PM

Richard,

Would the Bruce Metzger resource you're thinking of be: Lexical Aids for Students of New Testament Greek?  I have what is called the "New" edition published in 1983. It was given to me by my home pastor when I went to seminary.  I checked Logos and it doesn't seem to be available in logos format. Part two of the book (a paperback of 100 pages) is titled "Words classified according to their Root"

Yours in Christ,

Wayne

Rev. Wayne M. Pask, Emeritus

Richmond,VA

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Rich DeRuiter | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 12 2010 3:39 PM

Wayne M. Pask:

Richard,

Would the Bruce Metzger resource you're thinking of be: Lexical Aids for Students of New Testament Greek?  I have what is called the "New" edition published in 1983. It was given to me by my home pastor when I went to seminary.  I checked Logos and it doesn't seem to be available in logos format. Part two of the book (a paperback of 100 pages) is titled "Words classified according to their Root"

Yours in Christ,

Wayne

That's the one I was thinking about. I don't know if it's a complete list of roots and their differing lemmas, but it's a good start.

 Help links: WIKI;  Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)

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