How do I search for a pattern across verses?

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Posts 196
John Eggen | Forum Activity | Posted: Thu, Nov 18 2010 5:03 AM

I am trying to search for a pattern that would occur in the NT across verses.  Specifically I am looking for all instances where Paul writes with the pattern THOUGH {attribute of Christ} NOT {What Christ chooses to do} BUT {Christ's witness to how we are to live.}  One example of this would be in Philippians 2:6-7.  Is there a way to use Logos to identify other segments of scripture where Paul has written with this same kind of logical statement and doing so using various forms of the words (e.g. both although and though.)  Thanks!

    6      who, though he was in the form of God, 

    did not regard equality with God 

    as something to be exploited, 

    7      but emptied himself, 

    taking the form of a slave, 

    being born in human likeness. 

    And being found in human form, 

    8      he humbled himself 

    and became obedient to the point of death— 

    even death on a cross. 

 

The Holy Bible : New Revised Standard Version. 1989 (Php 2:6–8). Nashville: Thomas Nelson Publishers.

Posts 5337
Kevin Becker | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 18 2010 5:41 AM

Unfortunately you cannot search for patterns across multiple verses with a Bible or Morph search. You can, however, use a Basic Search to do so. Here's an example that would produce Phil 2:6-8. Note that the search is limited to Bible Text

The limitation of this approach is that you cannot limit the search to particular portions of the Bible, you have to search the whole thing. Remember when using proximity search terms you need to use lists (X,Y,Z) instead of X OR Y OR Z.

One might be able to adapt this approach to use LN numbers, but the though/although in the Phil case is a use of a concessive participle, which isn't noted by the LN semantic domains. If these were all conjunctions, it'd work fairly easily.

Posts 196
John Eggen | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 18 2010 6:58 AM

Thank you Kevin.  That seems to work very nicely.  I loose the ability of specifying certain books of the Bible, but I don't mind sorting through the results.

The "BEFORE 25 WORDS" clause... does that mean that I am searching for those words within 25 words of one another, is that correct?  Would you have a recommended resource to learn more about these types of operators?

Thanks again for your help.

Posts 5337
Kevin Becker | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 18 2010 7:07 AM

Yes you are right, the BEFORE 25 WORDS means that term must be within 25 words of the other one. I chose 25 as an approximation, you can widen or shorted the proximity depending on how the results are panning out.

Check out these to wiki pages for learning more about searching.

http://wiki.logos.com/Search_HELP

http://wiki.logos.com/Detailed_Search_Help

Posts 32
Don Jenkins | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 18 2010 7:04 PM

 Thanks John for asking this particular question. Coincidentely, Phil. is the book I've been teaching from, and 2:5-8 is what this week is about. I had the same basic desire to look for matching scriptures patterns. I was hoping my hours of syntax learning would somehow pay off. I made a lot of progress, but I'm still in way over my head there. I knew what I wanted, but I had no idea how to phrase the question. Your question and Kevin's answer comes pretty close to what I'm thinking. (I think????)Sad

I look forward to trying Kevin's answer after posting this. Thanks again to both you and Kevin.

 

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 18 2010 8:54 PM

Kevin Becker:

Unfortunately you cannot search for patterns across multiple verses with a Bible or Morph search. You can, however, use a Basic Search to do so. Here's an example that would produce Phil 2:6-8. Note that the search is limited to Bible Text

The limitation of this approach is that you cannot limit the search to particular portions of the Bible, you have to search the whole thing. Remember when using proximity search terms you need to use lists (X,Y,Z) instead of X OR Y OR Z.

One might be able to adapt this approach to use LN numbers, but the though/although in the Phil case is a use of a concessive participle, which isn't noted by the LN semantic domains. If these were all conjunctions, it'd work fairly easily.

Unfortunately, this relies upon the decision of the translator to determine a pattern.  In the case of Phil 2.6-7 we have a situation where in the Greek we do not have a subordination conj such as "though."  Instead what we have is ὁ̓ς ἐν μορφῇ θεοῦ ὑπάρχων which is a relative clause that the translator(s) have chosen to render as a subordinating conj.  This is not to say that the translator(s) have done a poor job of translation, but rather that there are other patterns in the Greek which might match such a pattern or that similarly patterned passages in translation might not be similar in the original.  If you really wish to do a proper job of searching for similar patterns, it must be done in the original language. 

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 5337
Kevin Becker | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 19 2010 4:51 AM

George Somsel:
Unfortunately, this relies upon the decision of the translator to determine a pattern.  In the case of Phil 2.6-7 we have a situation where in the Greek we do not have a subordination conj such as "though."  Instead what we have is ὁ̓ς ἐν μορφῇ θεοῦ ὑπάρχων which is a relative clause that the translator(s) have chosen to render as a subordinating conj.  This is not to say that the translator(s) have done a poor job of translation, but rather that there are other patterns in the Greek which might match such a pattern or that similarly patterned passages in translation might not be similar in the original.  If you really wish to do a proper job of searching for similar patterns, it must be done in the original language. 

You are correct and I agree. I didn't express the limitations of this search in my post. An English search will only catch a portion of a pattern and only when the translators are consistent.I didn't have time yesterday to crack open the syntax search to do look for similar passages that way.

However, the original question was about logical progression which could apply across multiple Greek syntactical patterns. An English search might be helpful to determine the parameters of a later Original Languages search i.e. this search could be a helpful shortcut to discover if this logical pattern uses a certain Greek structure or if multiple ones and then lead to a Morph or Syntax search.

Posts 27039
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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 19 2010 5:08 AM

Kevin Becker:
I didn't have time yesterday to crack open the syntax search to do look for similar passages that way.

I had a quick look at Lexham SGNT but found that the patterns from the text search were not always encompassed within the same Clause eg. the start of a text "clause" was the end of a syntax Clause. So you are still at the mercy of the translatorsSmile

Dave
===

Windows 10 & Android 8

Posts 5337
Kevin Becker | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 19 2010 1:09 PM

Dave Hooton:
I had a quick look at Lexham SGNT but found that the patterns from the text search were not always encompassed within the same Clause eg. the start of a text "clause" was the end of a syntax Clause. So you are still at the mercy of the translatorsSmile

I was able to return the construction in question with an OpenText syntax search. However, it didn't return much else of help and I ran out of time for further refinements.

Here it is.

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Forum MVP
Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 19 2010 2:16 PM

Kevin Becker:
Here it is.

How do you get the Wrap construct?

Dave
===

Windows 10 & Android 8

Posts 5337
Kevin Becker | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 19 2010 2:29 PM

Dave Hooton:

Kevin Becker:
Here it is.

How do you get the Wrap construct?

Insert a group first or insert a clause, click the plus arrow on the left side of the component and select Group. For some reason these Groups are labeled Wrap.

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 19 2010 2:56 PM

Kevin Becker:
Insert a group first or insert a clause, click the plus arrow on the left side of the component and select Group. For some reason these Groups are labeled Wrap.

Thanks, Kevin. The last day has been full of surprise undocumented features!

Dave
===

Windows 10 & Android 8

Posts 5337
Kevin Becker | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 19 2010 6:27 PM

Dave Hooton:
Thanks, Kevin. The last day has been full of

You're welcome. I just discovered it when working on this problem Smile.

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