Theological Question

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Dr. Charles A. Wootten | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 19 2010 6:14 AM

Graham Owen:
One of the challenges we Pentecostals face is that, in my opinion, good scholarship is a recent phenomenon, Like many new movements in our early years we rejected the traditions and approach of the established Church and as a result many failed to understand the benefits of education. 

Yes. Not only did we tear down the building but we tossed out the foundation, too, in our efforts "to return to our roots." One of the "Mr. Mxyzptlk" things we can't get rid of is the idea that "the Holy Spirit will bring all things to our remembrance," still preached today, yet not realizing that if we don't put anything in there is nothing for Him to use. So when a Synan or a Rodman Williams or a Logos software company comes along their efforts are lost in the noise of disparaging formal biblical education that is shouted from pulpits. If that is surprising to those of you reading this, then you don't get out much.

I've "pastors" who show up in my classes who barely know where the books of Genesis and Matthew are located who are astounded there's an earthly genealogy of Jesus, let alone that His miracles and teachings happened for a reason. Introduce these individuals to Rahab and they almost have an apoplectic fit. I've one fellow in class who has been in ministry for over 20 years admit that he's never heard of what I consider the basics of doctrine that were established over the past two millenia. Yet, the information is available. We need to be like Phillip the Evangelist asking again and again, "do you know what you are reading?" If the response is, "yes," then we should be able to have an intelligent conversation about the things of God. More often than not the response is a blank stare. When is the last time you were at a fellowship dinner where the topic of conversation was "what is God doing now?"

Figure this: there are, in round numbers, about 32,000 verses in the Bible. If a pastor only preaches on one verse each Sunday morning, then that's 58 verses that non-Bible readers hear in a year. If that preacher limits himself to the surface reading of the KJV, not tying in the relationship of that verse to the entire Bible, or even its pericope, in preaching a touchy-feely message then a disservice has been done. You folks who have a great preacher who accurately expounds the Scriptures and cares enough about your souls to do so are actually in the minority. There are many of these who regularly write here in the forums. We need to keep them covered in prayer always.

But, we keep working to dispel the darkness.

God bless

{charley}

running Logos Bible Software 6.0a: Collector's Edition on HP e9220y (AMD Phenom II X4 2.60GHz 8.00GB 64-bit Win 7 Pro SP1) & iPad (mini) apps.

Posts 171
Abi Gail | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 19 2010 8:42 AM

Dr. Charles A. Wootten:
One of the "Mr. Mxyzptlk" things we can't get rid of is the idea that "the Holy Spirit will bring all things to our remembrance," still preached today, yet not realizing that if we don't put anything in there is nothing for Him to use.

Amen ! I feel led to expand on this thought. We need to be careful what we store there for future recall. Jesus is specific what will be brought to our remembrance.

"All That I Said To You" John 14:26. If we fill our minds with What Jesus said, We are safe. Including what the bible writers said about Him still offers a measure of confidence. When we start to muddy the waters with what commentators say about him, We increase the risk of having corrupted, untrustworthy data on our cranial hard drive....Information that can be unconsciously/unintentionally intertwined with what the Spirit is attempting to bring to our remembrance.

God Bless You In Your Studies. Smile

~

Posts 611
Graham Owen | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 19 2010 9:31 AM

Dr. Charles A. Wootten:
"the Holy Spirit will bring all things to our remembrance,"

I have not heard this one for for a while but I know that traces of this type of thinking still exist.

Dr. Charles A. Wootten:
disparaging formal biblical education that is shouted from pulpits

Here in the UK the majority of our denomination have moved away from this type of thinking.

Dr. Charles A. Wootten:
the basics of doctrine that were established over the past two millenia

This is one of the things that does still surprise me, I think that some Pentecostals genuinely believe that our denomination fell from heaven somewhere around the beginning of the 20th century. The spiritual roots of our founding fathers had a massive impact on our formative years and if we don't understand this we seem to lose something foundational.

God Bless

Graham

Pastor - NTCOG Basingstoke

Posts 286
Dr. Charles A. Wootten | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 19 2010 10:38 AM

Abi Gail:
We need to be careful what we store there for future recall. Jesus is specific what will be brought to our remembrance.

"Out of the heart the mouth speaks?" heheh.... And definitely on John 14:26! I recently read a Logos resource section that was talking about "abiding in Christ" showing that one of the ways He abides in us is for us to put the words of Christ in our minds and act on them. Works for me.

{charley}

running Logos Bible Software 6.0a: Collector's Edition on HP e9220y (AMD Phenom II X4 2.60GHz 8.00GB 64-bit Win 7 Pro SP1) & iPad (mini) apps.

Posts 286
Dr. Charles A. Wootten | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 19 2010 10:49 AM

Graham Owen:
I think that some Pentecostals genuinely believe that our denomination fell from heaven somewhere around the beginning of the 20th century.

You mean it didn't? OH OH OH WOE IS ME WOE WOE WO..... Hmm ha ha ha....

Graham Owen:
I have not heard this one for for a while but I know that traces of this type of thinking still exist.

Well, what you said is still true, unfortunately. In my sphere, it is still on the minds of the smaller independent churches who have little to no oversight. I'm reading through Naselli's Let Go and Let God? A Survey and Analysis of Keswick Theology, which is really good from a lot of the historical background he adds in. It might help them to read it..... but I am still convinced not enough people read the Bible as they should.

{charley}

running Logos Bible Software 6.0a: Collector's Edition on HP e9220y (AMD Phenom II X4 2.60GHz 8.00GB 64-bit Win 7 Pro SP1) & iPad (mini) apps.

Posts 611
Graham Owen | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 19 2010 11:40 AM

Dr. Charles A. Wootten:

I enjoyed this book, it is well written if a bit predictable in places I doubt that many of my peers would even consider reading it. However there is a small, but growing group, who are able to accept that there is a diversity of experience that needs to be understood. Having spent time in the UK Charismatic movement that emerged in the 70's, from a Baptist Tradition, and now a Pentecostal Denomination that originated in the US from the Holiness Tradition I know that God can not be contained by either of the Theological Boxes we have constructed.

Dr. Charles A. Wootten:
but I am still convinced not enough people read the Bible as they should.

This is a huge issue, one of my personal crusades is to make sure that our congregation understand what the Bibles says, not what I say it says, not what other pastors have said that it says but what it really says. At times this seems harder than it should be but I believe that every beleiver needs to have an intimate relationship with God's word.

For me the path to a poor understanding of God's word starts with very basic mistakes, I encourage those who teach in the Church to ask two simple questions when they use a text.

  1. Is what I want to teach from this text consistent with the message in God's word?
  2. Does this text truly support what I want to teach?

We then go through examples of texts that, taken out of context, can be used to teach real truths. I see this in books all the time where authors add a list of texts that all seem to support the point they are making but only because they have been taken out of context. I don't think that it is possible to over emphasise the importance of using God's word faithfully.

God Bless

Graham

Pastor - NTCOG Basingstoke

Posts 33421
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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Dec 20 2010 1:28 AM

Pastor Jesse Blevins :
Does anyone out there believe that Logos should be responsible for at least not making any books available with such clear heretical teaching such as this one?

I hope not Wink - first, I often find heretical teaching useful foils for me to clarify my own thought and second, Logos would go out of business quickly if they removed everything that someone considered clearly heretical.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 171
Abi Gail | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Dec 20 2010 1:42 AM

MJ. Smith:
I often find heretical teaching useful foils for me to clarify my own thought

This is far from a black and white issue. I understand and agree with your thought...to a point. For a firmly established, highly educated individual, such as yourself, Heresy can cause one to dig deeper to disprove the heresy. For a baby Christian surviving on milk toast, This type of material can permanently distort their thought process. They don't have the tools to filter out the deceptions. 

Just another view to consider.Smile

~

Posts 33421
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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Dec 20 2010 1:43 AM

Matthew C Jones:
Some "heretics" I will tolerate, stupid broccoli theologians, I will not.

Naturally I feel an obligation to come to the defense of the rational broccoli theologians... although I am having trouble finding any language guidance to assist me in understanding Boli (I think that's what broccoli theologians speak)Cool

However, I am bemused by the whole thread ... what does "before" mean when applied to God? I think of God as being greater than the space-time continuum and think of the incarnation as God inserting Himself into the space-time continuum with the limitations of being human. Other than a few key points "begotten not made", "one with the Father" "through whom all things were made" ... I'm seriously leery of any "before" statements re: Jesus Christ ... and for Logos references see the Creeds and the Early Church Fathers to see how those before us tried to puzzle it out ...

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 33421
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Dec 20 2010 1:51 AM

Richard DeRuiter:
Pentecostal/Charismatic/Third Wave perspective.

What's "Third Wave"?

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 33421
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Dec 20 2010 1:56 AM

Dr. Charles A. Wootten:
that's 58 verses that non-Bible readers hear in a year

I can't resist Devil You'd beat that if you just showed up for Christmas and Easter in a Catholic church.Big Smile

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 114
James Matichuk | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Dec 20 2010 2:04 AM

Third wave was shorthand for the third wave of charismatic renewal in the 20th century. Briefly, Pentecostalism was first (1901 or 1906-depending on whether you measure its start with Charles Parham's Topeka, KA Bible class or the Azuza Street Revival. Pentecostal theology taught that 'in the last days' there would be a renewal of the gifts of the Spirit we saw in the New Testament. Then came the Charismatics (ca. 1960's) which encompassed a wider group of Christians who saw the gifts as continuous since the NT. Third Wavers came in the 1980's, and represent Charismatics who remained within their various traditions (i.e. Baptist, Presbyterian, etc.). The term was first employed by C. Peter Wagner (in 1988 I believe) when he was still at Fuller Seminary.

Posts 171
Abi Gail | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Dec 20 2010 2:13 AM

James Matichuk:
Third Wavers came in the 1980's, and represent Charismatics who remained within their various traditions (i.e. Baptist, Presbyterian, etc.).

Edit: And most recently, There is a Catholic/Charismatic Movement.   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Charismatic_Renewal

~

Posts 114
James Matichuk | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Dec 20 2010 2:17 AM

Catholic Charismatic Movement started in the late 1960's, early 1970's.  My wife's Godparents were early leaders in the movement.

Posts 8899
fgh | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Dec 20 2010 10:22 AM

MJ. Smith:
Other than a few key points "begotten not made", "one with the Father" "through whom all things were made" ... I'm seriously leery of any "before" statements re: Jesus Christ

I think "became incarnate" and "was made man" would have to be included among those... Stick out tongue Hard to reconcile that with the view this author seems to be proposing. Wink

Other than that, you are, of course, right: for God there is no 'before'. Like we look out a window and see all at once, not one detail at a time, He looks into time and sees it all at once. For Him the creation, the incarnation, the cross, and the last judgement are all 'now'. So in that sense the Son was 'always' man. I just doubt that was the point this guy was trying to make... Stick out tongue

 

 

 

"The Christian way of life isn't so much an assignment to be performed, as a gift to be received."  Wilfrid Stinissen

Mac Pro OS 10.9.

Posts 8899
fgh | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Dec 20 2010 10:25 AM

James Matichuk:
Third wave was shorthand for the third wave of charismatic renewal in the 20th century. Briefly, Pentecostalism was first (1901 or 1906-depending on whether you measure its start with Charles Parham's Topeka, KA Bible class or the Azuza Street Revival.

And now I can't resist... Devil 

Does anyone know the Catholic background to all this? In the 1890-ies a Catholic woman (Bl Elena Guerra) started receiving the message that God wanted to make the 20th century  the Century of the Holy Spirit, and that the whole church must pray for this to happen. She started a sisterhood with this purpose, and she also wrote a series of letters to the pope, and, contrary to what normally happens, he actually took her seriously. He started the preparations by writing an encyclical on the Holy Spirit. Unfortunately, bishops are rather independent persons, who seldom listen to the pope unless he says what they already think, so the vast majority of them just wrote him nice letters back, telling him what an excellent document he had written -- after which they filed it away in some basement archive. He then tried all sorts of things, but very few listened.

So on the eve of the new century the pope sang Veni Sancte Spiritus -- the Sequence for Pentecost  -- alone, in the name of the whole Church. The very next day it all started in Topeka.

I guess when God can't make things happen the way He wants, He takes a detour... Big Smile

(This, of course, does not imply that the gifts of the Spirit were ever dead in the Catholic church. E g, I know of a little czech village where prophesy, healings and speaking in tongues is said to have been everyday occurrences all the way from the 11th century until the N-a-z-i-s (that's obviously a censored word...) killed almost all of them off during the 1938 invasion. They were so isolated they didn't even know they were unusual... The future pope John XXIII visited a number of times in the 30-ies, which might shed some light on the Vatican II pre-history.)

"The Christian way of life isn't so much an assignment to be performed, as a gift to be received."  Wilfrid Stinissen

Mac Pro OS 10.9.

Posts 114
James Matichuk | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Dec 20 2010 10:33 AM

Thanks for this...I know a little bit about the Catholic Charismatic Renewal in the US from some family connections, but didn't know anything about Elena Guerra.

Posts 611
Jesse Blevins | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Dec 20 2010 10:39 AM

Going back to the original question that was posed in this forum I started a new thread around the topic of what the Logos community thinks concerning being allowed to post our own book reviews for each other to be able to read, sort of like what CBD and Amazon does for the books that they sell.

 

This would be a great way for others to share their insights and opinions on books before a person purchases them.

 

Just as we read the reviews of others when we check out some of the books we should also be able to read some reviews written from among the Logos community.    

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