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Posts 1777
Rick | Forum Activity | Posted: Fri, Oct 23 2009 11:43 AM

I was wondering if anyone had a timeline of Daniel 9:24-27 from a non-futurist view that they would be willing to share?
Thanks in advance,
Rick

Posts 98
Tim Lord | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 23 2009 4:35 PM

Verse 27 in your passage becomes problematic when attempting a non-futurist view to include verse 27.  The text in verse 26 demonstrates a gap between the 69th week of 7 years and the final 70th week of seven years, because just the time alone between death of Messiah, the Anointed One (@AD 30) and the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70 is approximately a 40 year period itself.  With a gap of time between the ending of the 69th week and the beginning of the 70th week, then the 70th week described in verse 27 describes a future period after the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70.  It is not hard to see that with the reestablishment of Israel as a nation once again in 1948 (an almost 1900 year period of time since the end of the nation in AD 70) that the period of the 70th seven could soon start in our own time.  Daniel's prayer was being answered by God, so it should not shock us that the answer God gives is not merely near history (as would be a typical human persepctive or expectation), but in the divine persepctive of all things across all time, God chooses in verse 27 to provide some key events/milestones in the future of Israel that lead to the final end of this age.

Posts 1777
Rick | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 23 2009 4:43 PM

Thanks for responding. I understand that the gap does present a problem, I have seen one from the historicist view that allowed everything to fall together. Please don't think that I am in anyway promoting one belief system over the other, I was just curious. I'll probably just go back to the DVD that I saw the chart on and make one from PowerPoint. I'm studying the four main views and trying to take some extensive notes to the best of my ability.

Thanks again and God bless!

Rick

Posts 2055
Mark | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 23 2009 4:46 PM

Is there a Libronix resource that would highlight the 4 main views?

Posts 1777
Rick | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 23 2009 4:59 PM

Yes, "Revelation:Four Views" by Steve Gregg is an awesome resource and the best that I have found that even attempts to cover all four views. I was so impressed that I bought the hard cover after buying it from Logos.

It is a parallel commentary. He gives the scripture and then he explains how the different views interpret it. He also makes a point to stay neutral trying not to reveal how he believes. He made a point to explain that in the introduction. His main reason for writing the book is simply because there really are no other parallel commentaries on the subject. I highly recommend it if this type of study is what you are looking for.

Rick

Posts 2055
Mark | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 23 2009 5:48 PM

VincentSetterholm:

Yes, great resource.  Are there any others?  Are there any commentaries on Daniel that would represent the 4 views of Daniel 9 that can be found in Libronix?  It would be these types of resources that would be so helpful.

Posts 1777
Rick | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 23 2009 6:08 PM

MarkSwaim:
Yes, great resource.  Are there any others?  Are there any commentaries on Daniel that would represent the 4 views of Daniel 9 that can be found in Libronix?  It would be these types of resources that would be so helpful.

I have not been able to find any in Libronix or anywhere else. I have used several different writings from different denominations and such. Historicist and preterist/ partial preterist  commentaries take a bit of searching. For Historicist views I look at Seventh Day Adventist writings. Either from www.adventistbookstore.com and I also bought the Adventist commentaries from Logos( http://www.logos.com/products/details/3441). I would have rather not spent the money, but it is for my study and I would rather read about it from the people who truly believe it than others who may be partial. At the book center you can buy a Daniel/Revelation commentary that is simply the two books taken out of the complete commentary bundle so it is considerably cheaper.

Sorry that I could not help you more.

Posts 98
Tim Lord | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 23 2009 7:39 PM

I checked through about a dozen or so Libronix references I have on Daniel and surprisingly found a title by Jack Hayford that overviews five various interpretive frameworks.  Hayford's book, "Until the End of Time" (UNTILEND.lbxlls) actually covers both Daniel and Revelation, but opens with a discussion on viewpoints in its "Guidelines for Interpreting Prophecy" section.  Other works on Daniel, such as "The Preachers' Commentary" (PRCM21DA.lbxlls) give a brief overview of the different interpretive frameworks.  I think if you examined various study Bibles offered in Libronix format you might find similar explanatory overviews, though brief.  Digging into the more liberal WBC commentary regarding Daniel 9:24-27 did not, however, provide a balanced comparison of differing interpretive frameworks.  The author simply asserted that "Emailxegetically such views are mistaken" among those who hold to the Jewish and Christian tradition that this passage applied to later events after the time of Daniel, such as the birth of the Messiah, the fall of Jerusalem, and the still-future manifestation of the Messiah as this author thinks the detail of 9:24-27 all fit within events of the second centruy B.C.  He characterized other viewpoints as "radically deistic".  (Amazing how one can be a scholar of the Bible and still miss the message of the Bible).

Posts 2055
Mark | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 23 2009 8:27 PM

It certainly would be nice and helpful if future versions of Libronix had an index of authors from various positions:  Who holds to one of the 4 views or who is dispensational and who is reformed etc.  I suppose such a list could be controversial, but perhaps Libronix could set up an index which each individual libronix owner could easily move around, subtracting them from one list and adding them to another, or even starting a new category.

Posts 1777
Rick | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Oct 24 2009 6:05 AM

Tim, I appreciate your research and will have to look in to the resources that you mentioned. I in no way have any kind of advanced education so my going has been a bit sloooow  Embarrassed

Mark, I too wish that Libronix would at least put something about the author's views at least in the book description. Some of them do include "From a dispensationalist view" but the others you really have no idea until you do a lot of web searching or just buy the book and discover it is not what you had hoped for. Been there done that, will try not to make the same mistake twice!

Thanks again to the both of you!

Rick

Posts 1
John Fry | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 13 2014 7:18 PM

I suggest you look at the Margin of the 1560AD Geneva Bible for what all Protestants taught.  This is the Historicist view, including the Historicist view of Daniel 9:27.  In 1560 AD they did not know the correct dates for ancient events, so they do not start the prophecy with the 7th year of Artaxerxes.  If we start this prophecy in Artaxerxes 7th year we have the 69th week ending in 27AD-- the 15th year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar, Luke 3:1 [dating from when Tiberius started reigning jointly with Augustus in 12AD.]  We have the cross in 31AD, the time when "In the Midst of the week, He--Messiah--shall cause the sacrifices and offerings to cease."  And the ending of the 70th week comes then in 34AD, at the stoning of Steven.

Posts 4965
David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 13 2014 10:51 PM

John Fry:

I suggest you look at the Margin of the 1560AD Geneva Bible for what all Protestants taught.  This is the Historicist view, including the Historicist view of Daniel 9:27.  In 1560 AD they did not know the correct dates for ancient events, so they do not start the prophecy with the 7th year of Artaxerxes.  If we start this prophecy in Artaxerxes 7th year we have the 69th week ending in 27AD-- the 15th year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar, Luke 3:1 [dating from when Tiberius started reigning jointly with Augustus in 12AD.]  We have the cross in 31AD, the time when "In the Midst of the week, He--Messiah--shall cause the sacrifices and offerings to cease."  And the ending of the 70th week comes then in 34AD, at the stoning of Steven.

Speaking of which, this would be a good time to bring this CP back into the conversation. I can feel comfortable expecting marginal notes to be included in the Logos versions of these, can't I?

Now, having promoted that, in my opinion the "timeline" aspect of the 70 Sevens prophecy is far and away the least important and least interesting part of that prophetic pericope. There is probably no other prophetic notion that has more bodies impaled on it's doorstep, and the line to be the next victim is lined up as far as the eye can see. Frankly, I don't see what the attraction is, nor to I see any real pay-off for "getting it right". In some respects it gives the impression of being a major red herring. It fits that bill perfectly...what is perhaps the most profound concept in the Bible is bottled up in that passage, and it has rested totally undisturbed for better than 2500 years.

I forget...what's the prize for getting the timeline right? Brownie points? Green Stamps? A Purple Heart? The chance to hear those most fearsome words from Mt. 7:23?

Posts 15805
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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 14 2014 5:08 AM

One idea is searching for:

<Dan 9:24-27>

Wiki has => http://wiki.logos.com/Example_Collections

FYI: Logos 5 is free => https://www.logos.com/installation Suggest syncing Libronix licenses with Logos servers, then login to Logos 5 with the same account.

Keep Smiling Smile

Posts 11214
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 14 2014 6:45 AM

Yes, but David, old prophetic mix-ups, along with old threads make for interesting reading.

Why just yesterday in one of my analysis, I wrote down (not literally, it was on an iPad) that the key NT writers never explained exactly what was the timing driver (e.g. when Paul narrows down the end of time to what looks to be a 65-75 range, and other authors say 'shortened' suggesting the target point had moved earlier by someone).

And of course, Logos is missing a real in-depth resource on apocalyptic calculations, re-calculations, back-calculations, and of course the church fathers involvement as well (I think all the way up to St Augustine, the calculators were smoking).

"God will save his fallen angels and their broken wings He'll mend."

Posts 2635
David Ames | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 14 2014 8:15 AM

Tim Lord:

The text in verse 26 demonstrates a gap between the 69th week of 7 years and the final 70th week of seven years,

""26 And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off and shall have nothing. And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end shall come with a flood, and to the end there shall be war. Desolations are decreed.""

Do ALL of 'the ways' interpret V 26 as requiring a gap?  When is the earliest that the items mentioned in v 26 can happen? Could any of those things happen after week 70? Or are both V 26 and V 27 the description of week 70 rather than something between week 69 and week 70? Remember that the Verse breaks were inserted into the text in about 1500 [or so] not by the author of Daniel. 

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Lynden Williams | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 14 2014 9:15 AM

This is an old thread, but if anyone is interested in a modern study of the subject this series will be of assistance. https://www.logos.com/product/37737/daniel-and-revelation-committee-series 

Lynden Williams Communications https://www.lyndenwilliams.net 

Posts 4965
David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 14 2014 2:08 PM

David Ames:

Tim Lord:

The text in verse 26 demonstrates a gap between the 69th week of 7 years and the final 70th week of seven years,

""26 And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off and shall have nothing. And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end shall come with a flood, and to the end there shall be war. Desolations are decreed.""

Do ALL of 'the ways' interpret V 26 as requiring a gap?  When is the earliest that the items mentioned in v 26 can happen? Could any of those things happen after week 70? Or are both V 26 and V 27 the description of week 70 rather than something between week 69 and week 70? Remember that the Verse breaks were inserted into the text in about 1500 [or so] not by the author of Daniel. 

I am familiar with (or at least know that I've heard) interpretations that do not include a gap. And then there's the notion that the 70 weeks is literally 490 days and that is the whole length of Yeishuu`a's ministry. That idea depends on something being true that isn't...but has that really ever stopped anyone before?

Posts 4965
David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 14 2014 2:11 PM

Lynden Williams:

This is an old thread, but if anyone is interested in a modern study of the subject this series will be of assistance. https://www.logos.com/product/37737/daniel-and-revelation-committee-series 

It's not an old thread, Lyndon...it's a RESURRECTED THREAD!!!

Anyway, I'm looking forward to picking that up as part of my SDA Silver package...one of these days.

Posts 2635
David Ames | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 14 2014 6:13 PM

David Paul:

That idea depends on something being true that isn't...but has that really ever stopped anyone before?

If it can be misinterpreted someone will. 

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