"decode" the Hebrew and Greek ANYWHERE

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Posts 10
Robert Morris | Forum Activity | Posted: Wed, Jan 19 2011 2:05 PM

Now, I'm sure that I will make this sound ridiculously simple to accomplish BUT why can't the developers of the Logos 4 software, create an "addin" that would "decode" the Hebrew and Greek ANYWHERE in our software that we hover over??? If the whole Goal of Logos 4 is to make... academic bible study easy for "dummies" then why not decode the Hebrew and Greek text for us ANYWHERE? The way I see it.. Anytime a person would come to an foreign word in the bible or in one of the commentaries they could just flip a switch, hover over the word in question and something like an magnifying glass would appear...AND your Hebrew or Greek word would be decoded in English ANYWHERE IN YOUR LIBRARY!!! CAN THIS BE DONE??? Now, I know about the "information" window. I'm just thinking outside the box!  P.S. I love Logos dearly!!

Posts 19275
Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 19 2011 2:30 PM

Yes, this would be cool. It would be a ton of work as every resource with embedded Hebrew or Greek in it would need to have morphological tagging added to those spots. But it would be cool.

I was reading along in a book last night and came across a Hebrew word. Right-click and selecting Look up didn't work because it wasn't a lemma. Even searching my Entire Library for that word didn't work because Hebrew searching doesn't ignore the vowel pointing and the word in the text I was reading was unpointed. So Logos only found a few occurrences. Fortunately, one of them was in an unpointed Hebrew text that had the versification with it, so I was able to then go look up that verse in BHS, locate the word in question and hover over it there to find out the details. But wow, that shouldn't have been so much work!

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 19 2011 2:32 PM

Robert Morris:

Now, I'm sure that I will make this sound ridiculously simple to accomplish BUT why can't the developers of the Logos 4 software, create an "addin" that would "decode" the Hebrew and Greek ANYWHERE in our software that we hover over??? If the whole Goal of Logos 4 is to make... academic bible study easy for "dummies" then why not decode the Hebrew and Greek text for us ANYWHERE? The way I see it.. Anytime a person would come to an foreign word in the bible or in one of the commentaries they could just flip a switch, hover over the word in question and something like an magnifying glass would appear...AND your Hebrew or Greek word would be decoded in English ANYWHERE IN YOUR LIBRARY!!! CAN THIS BE DONE??? Now, I know about the "information" window. I'm just thinking outside the box!  P.S. I love Logos dearly!!

I'm sorry to need to be the bearer of bad news, but there comes a point where a person simply has to stand up to the plate and prepare himself to understand some matters.  Technology can really only take you so far.  It isn't able to simply pour a knowledge of the original languages into someone's mind.  It takes old fashioned hard work to learn it, not the simple pushing of a button.  Even if Logos were to develop a module to perform the task you are asking for, how would you know that what they propose as the translation is absolutely correct?  There is some difference of opinion even in how to read the original languages.  You would be putting yourself at the mercy of the interpretation someone else determines to be correct.  In another thread a quotation from Wiersbe was posted regarding the use of the term κυνάριον KUNARION in the incident of the Syro-Phoenician woman where he compared non-Jews to κυνάρια KUNARIA or dogs.  Wiersbe attempts to soften the force of Jesus' calling her a dog by saying that he was calling her a "nice little puppy."  He was doing no such thing.  Wiersbe is basing his view on the fact that the word is a dimininutive.  It would initially appear that he has a point, but it proves to really not be the case since the diminutive had lost its force.  Would you wish to base your interpretation of the passage on the use of the diminutive which had really lost its force?  Jesus wasn't trying to soften his language.  He was calling non-Jews dogs -- pure and simple.  It is a similar type of interpretation to which you subject yourself if you let someone else spoon feed you.  No pain, no gain.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 1030
Richard Wardman | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 19 2011 3:01 PM

George Somsel:
No pain, no gain.

For all the joy and simplicity of using Logos 4, actually there is no substitute for the toil involved in rigorous Bible study, particularly in sermon preparation.  So please, Logos, don't make too easy!

Posts 10
Robert Morris | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 19 2011 8:19 PM

thank you so much!

Posts 10
Robert Morris | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 19 2011 8:23 PM

It would be very cool!! I must admit that other people are making some great points as well...

Posts 10
Robert Morris | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 19 2011 8:44 PM

I totally understand your point.... yet, at the same time it's Logos bold move to give us the "pay-off" up front that makes their competitors inferior to them. it's obvious to me that the Hebrew and Greek Language can go really, really deep... but I think of it as simply... as making all scripture-related comments by (let's say) some commentary equal the ESV text. For example; λθν (Having come). That's it. That's all I mean when I say "decode it". Just do what the reverse interlinear already does for us.. Just do it everywhere!

Posts 19275
Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 19 2011 10:57 PM

Robert Morris:
Just do what the reverse interlinear already does for us.. Just do it everywhere!

Oh, don't get George started on reverse interlinears...  Smile

Posts 33258
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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 19 2011 11:23 PM

Note: this thread seems to be missing some discussion last night re: lemmas, Japanese and The Hitchhikers Guide to the Universe. Yes, I am kidding about the last item ... anything to keep George off the topic of reverse interlinears. (I tend to agree with him).

In fact for Logos to achieve the OP goals, all sources would need to be marked for lemmas - its a resource issue rather than computer developer issue because both Greek and Hebrew can modify the root so the lemma is not obvious - changes in root (strengthening) and infixes.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 20 2011 4:08 AM

MJ. Smith:
Note: this thread seems to be missing some discussion last night re: lemmas, Japanese ...

Logos 4 forum has similar discussion last night => http://community.logos.com/forums/t/28835.aspx

Wonder about expanding decode anywhere to include Aramaic, Latin, Syriac ?  Possibly translate to language chosen for Logos interface (e.g. Swedish).

Keep Smiling Smile

Posts 11433
DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 20 2011 6:16 AM

I'm forever amazed at how on the Logos forum, the goal seems to be to explain why something can't be done. Shouldn't be done. Will actually be injurious to the mental health of the suggestor, if per chance Logos might even think about doing it. The suggestion here is just a small step away from right-clicking on an analytical lexicon. I stick one beneath my regular ones on the priority list to 'catch' any ones that aren't pre-defined. Surprisingly it works almost 90% of the time, and so all the 'work' needed isn't that significant. Desirable? It would depend on Logos' customer base (which Logos, recently if I remember correctly, had a goal of expanding in order to fund more resources/software upgrades). So it is possible to be positive about forum suggestions. And I'm usually the 'negative one'.

"God will save his fallen angels and their broken wings He'll mend."

Posts 1130
Keith Larson | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 20 2011 6:37 AM

Here is a work around that will work some times: Copy the Greek or Hebrew word into your clip board, then open a Greek or Hebrew bible, open a search window and paste the word into the search box and you will get a list of verses that use that word, then from there you can get the information you are looking for.

Posts 10
Robert Morris | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 20 2011 1:45 PM

THANKS!

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 20 2011 2:11 PM

Keith Larson:

Here is a work around that will work some times: Copy the Greek or Hebrew word into your clip board, then open a Greek or Hebrew bible, open a search window and paste the word into the search box and you will get a list of verses that use that word, then from there you can get the information you are looking for.

Also, since almost all Hebrew and most Greek will be found in the Greek and Hebrew texts of the bible, you should be able to do a bible search (of the appropriate text) using the entire quotation (in quotations).  You could then see what it means as well as checking the morphology.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 1409
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Rick Brannan (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 20 2011 2:27 PM

Keith Larson:

Here is a work around that will work some times: Copy the Greek or Hebrew word into your clip board, then open a Greek or Hebrew bible, open a search window and paste the word into the search box and you will get a list of verses that use that word, then from there you can get the information you are looking for.

Another option, at least for Greek that occurs in the Greek New Testament, is to use an Analytical Lexicon. There are two available in Logos:

Analytical lexicons typically list all the forms of the words that occur in a corpus (Greek New Testament would be the corpus for these) and have pointers from the form to the lemma. We've implemented these so all forms and lemmas are keylink targets. So if you're in a commentary and keylink on a Greek word, if it occurs in the text you should be able to get a hit in an analytical lexicon.

(We've thought about similar lexicons for LXX and, though it would be much trickier, the Hebrew Bible. Would that be useful? If so, get it on user voice so we know. Thanks!)

Rick Brannan
Data Wrangler, Faithlife
My books in print

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 20 2011 2:37 PM

Rick Brannan:
Another option, at least for Greek that occurs in the Greek New Testament, is to use an Analytical Lexicon.

Other than a few occasions when first learning Greek, I've never used one of these and therefore had forgotten about them.  I would recommend, however, that they be avoided as much as possible.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 1409
LogosEmployee
Rick Brannan (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 20 2011 2:42 PM

George Somsel:

Rick Brannan:
Another option, at least for Greek that occurs in the Greek New Testament, is to use an Analytical Lexicon.

Other than a few occasions when first learning Greek, I've never used one of these and therefore had forgotten about them.  I would recommend, however, that they be avoided as much as possible.

The advantage, of course, is that an analytical lexicon can help guide someone from the form to the lemma (much like a morph tagged text) and from the lemma into other lexicons (e.g. BDAG) where more complete data can be accessed. If one hasn't developed the skills to do this on their own, then an analytical lexicon can be a great help.

Rick Brannan
Data Wrangler, Faithlife
My books in print

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 20 2011 3:10 PM

Rick Brannan:

George Somsel:

Rick Brannan:
Another option, at least for Greek that occurs in the Greek New Testament, is to use an Analytical Lexicon.

Other than a few occasions when first learning Greek, I've never used one of these and therefore had forgotten about them.  I would recommend, however, that they be avoided as much as possible.

The advantage, of course, is that an analytical lexicon can help guide someone from the form to the lemma (much like a morph tagged text) and from the lemma into other lexicons (e.g. BDAG) where more complete data can be accessed. If one hasn't developed the skills to do this on their own, then an analytical lexicon can be a great help.

In some ways I'm not overly fond of morphologically tagged texts either.  They are handy for quickly bringing up a lexicon to the appropriate entry, but generally I already know the form and the lemma without the tagging.  It is occasionally handy when there is a rather oddball form involved.  I wouldn't recommend against morphologically tagged texts for those reasons, but I would recommend that, for the most part, the mouse-pointer be kept away from the morph-tagged text.  I'll say it again though, it certainly is handly to be able to click on the word and open the lexicon to the right entry.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 1680
Jerry M | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 20 2011 3:50 PM

George, if you are still reading this thread,( I don't want to high jack it)  I was curious if you had an opinion about the use of εὐθέως especially in the gospel of Mark.  It seems to me to be a marker of sequence in the narrative but is almost always translated immediately, to the point of overuse.  It seems it would be better to be translated "then" in many cases.  What do you think?

"For the kingdom of God does not consist in words but in power"      Wiki Table of Contents

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 20 2011 4:33 PM

Jerry M:

George, if you are still reading this thread,( I don't want to high jack it)  I was curious if you had an opinion about the use of εὐθέως especially in the gospel of Mark.  It seems to me to be a marker of sequence in the narrative but is almost always translated immediately, to the point of overuse.  It seems it would be better to be translated "then" in many cases.  What do you think?

I totally agree.  About 2 yrs ago in the Lenten Greek Reading group that I run each Lent we read Mark and I noted such at the time.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

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