Logos 4 running slow on mac...

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Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Mar 18 2011 4:15 PM

Theolobias:
I was referring to L4Mac when I was using it some months ago.

If you have not used L4 Mac in that time, you are comparing apples to oranges. It is very unfair of you to condemn a product that you have not used.

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Tobias Lampert | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Mar 18 2011 5:53 PM

Jack Caviness:
If you have not used L4 Mac in that time, you are comparing apples to oranges. It is very unfair of you to condemn a product that you have not used.

Jack, I was referring to the development of L4Mac from the beginning, so I can at least speak of L4Mac when it comes to the first three to four months. As far as I remember, already back then people were buying into Logos 4 because they were getting excited. However, what was following was a relatively long period in which they had to experience a program that was at most comparable to other programs in beta phase, although they payed for being able to really use it, not to do further development. That's what I was talking about - I cannot see what is unfair about that, particularly with regard to the note I made that there have been improvements in L4Mac since then.

Imagine buying a car, not because for having fun but because you're depending on having one, so you spend a lot of money. And even though the producer has advertised it as being the newest and coolest thing out there, what you happen to get is a tricycle. There might have been major improvements in the meantime, but that was not what you were spending money on in the first place and you were virtually forced to use something different. Enthusiasts for a specific brand might say it is "very unfair to condemn a product that you have not used" - I'd say having spent a considerable amount of money for something that didn't work as it was supposed to for months gives me every right to be at least a tiny bit upset.

I still love L4 for what it can do, but when it comes to performance, I think that even regarding the PC version there's still a lot of work that has to be done. And while reading the forums for L4Mac usage I really don't get the impression that Mac users are overall stoked ...

"Mach's wie Gott - werde Mensch!" | theolobias.de

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Fr. Charles R. Matheny | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Mar 18 2011 7:17 PM

Dear Mike: The whole point is the program "does not respond the same on any two machines", so it running well for you makes no difference to the discussion about the "problem" other than to further prove the point.

 

Just for giggle and grins- install on two Macs, exactly the same, same everything, same set up, nothing different at all- the result will be - the program will not run the same on both.

 

Which leads me to think there is something wrong with the install coding or something in that line, perhaps with indexing, I sure do not know.

But there "has to be" something wrong, some error, some reason that explains why the program works well on one system, and not the other just like it.

This has not been, and I don't think it has become a "bash logos" thread.

 

However, again, it is just frustrating as can be to have people act like there is something wrong with us, who do not have your experience.

 

We are not talking about "subjective" issues, but issues of "real physical , repeatable problems".

With two panels open, nothing else, computers getting hot, fans going crazy, being told to "send in logs" crashes, more crashes, slow to load, stopping forever on a beach ball, things like this are not subjective things like "wish it was quicker", "seems slow".

These are "real" difficulties for folks, folks that have spent their money in good faith.

Telling a man with a broken leg- "well, mine works fine", usually does not help him with his leg.

 

I am so glad the program is not only usable, but works great, for many/most of you, - thrilled for you in fact.

It does not for me on a pretty new Mac, where everything else works fine and no problems with fonts, and everything turned off that can be turned off.

 

Sad isn't it, when we have to turn off the features to use the program.

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Fr. Charles R. Matheny | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Mar 18 2011 7:19 PM

Being told to turn off the features , sounds to me like being told: Yep, this car as excellent Air Conditioning! You just can't use it while your driving.

Blessings all.

Posts 109
Darryl Burling | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Mar 18 2011 8:24 PM

David Mitchell:

Working on performance issues is a high priority issue for everyone working on the Mac product (and for me, in particular). As many users have observed, version 4.2a had a number of improvements in this area; the next version will have even more.

I'd also like to take a moment to thank all of our forum users who jump into threads like these with useful tips for improving the experience in the meantime. I know that for some people, your help has been indispensable while we work on much-needed improvement. Your aid is very much appreciated.

Thanks for the update David.  We all have different expectations of what "fast" or "slow" is, so along with different computers it doesn't make it easy to provide objective data.

However, its pretty obvious that there are a lot of frustrated users, and it is great to hear that you guys are working on it.  Please let us know if we can help!

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Fr. Charles R. Matheny | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Mar 18 2011 8:27 PM

yes David: Thank you for letting people know it's being looked at and worked on.

Blessings.

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Mike Binks | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 19 2011 1:02 AM

Hi again Theolobias,

I have to agree with you that the move from Beta to Release was premature. There was, and I don't know why, considerable enthusiasm for the move from Beta testers.

However I paid up early in the Beta process, knowing that it was a Beta process and with my eyes wide open to the risks and consequences. I have actually enjoyed the process.

Just now I am not in the Beta channel because the risk v reward are too unbalanced.

May I suggest you give the latest versions of L4 a run and let us know your experiences.

This really is a strange forum - I have just come to this thread from one where the user is asking how to ditch the windows version from his machine as there is now no appreciable difference in speed between the two systems.

tootle pip

Mike

How to get logs and post them. (now tagging post-apocalyptic fiction as current affairs)

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Tobias Lampert | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 19 2011 4:23 AM

Mike Binks:
May I suggest you give the latest versions of L4 a run and let us know your experiences.

Hi Mark,

As soon as I'll be working on a Mac again, I will give L4Mac a try again. Right now I only have my Windows notebook.

"Mach's wie Gott - werde Mensch!" | theolobias.de

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Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 19 2011 4:40 AM

Theolobias:
still love L4 for what it can do, but when it comes to performance, I think that even regarding the PC version there's still a lot of work that has to be done.

I agree.

Theolobias:
And while reading the forums for L4Mac usage I really don't get the impression that Mac users are overall stoked ...

Some are; some aren't. I normally use L4 Mac for my Bible Study. However, if I want to take many notes, I have to switch to L4 Win because the Notes feature in L4 Mac is close to being unusable.

Perhaps my perspective is different from yours, since I keep my installation on the Beta Channel for both Windows and Mac versions. I am pleased with the progress, but if I came onboard expecting a finished product, I may think otherwise. I have been riding this roller-coaster ever since Logos first announced that they would produce a Mac version (2005–2006?).

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Tobias Lampert | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 19 2011 4:43 AM

Jack Caviness:
I am pleased with the progress, but if I came onboard expecting a finished product, I may think otherwise.

That's exactly the problem! Anyway, I'm glad things are working for you! :)

Blessings!

"Mach's wie Gott - werde Mensch!" | theolobias.de

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tom | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 19 2011 6:44 AM

Fr. Charles R. Matheny:

Being told to turn off the features , sounds to me like being told: Yep, this car as excellent Air Conditioning! You just can't use it while your driving.

Blessings all.

Yes

Posts 60
Christopher Easton | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 21 2011 6:04 PM

"The whole purpose of Logos (at least from what was marketed) was that the program put a wealth of resources at your fingertips, and saved a person significant time in Bible study. I'm frankly not seeing that.  It's not simply a question of "six seconds to search your whole library" (which doesn't account for the vast amount of time necessary to sort through the hundreds or even thousands of meaningless "hits" to find what is useful... something I'd never have to do working with a physical library )... but what about accounting for all of the time and effort just to try to figure out how to make it work? I could far more easily and quickly just go to my book shelf and find what I need... and then get on with the task for which I was studying in the first place... ministering to people."

I understand your frustration... I use Photoshop CS4...same issues I have with Logos 4...The software is ahead of the machine. I am annoyed by it but am not investing in a newer machine at this time to get rid of the issue...The above quote tells me one thing for sure...You need to sit down an invest some time in learning how to search. I did this after my first Camp Logos. It is rare for me to get meaningless hits anymore. Have you been to Camp Logos? MAybe you could give an example of what you search for and the results...Would love to help direct you o the resources/tricks I have learned from.

Posts 190
EmileB | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 21 2011 9:01 PM

Hi Christopher,

Yeah, I'd definitely agree I need some searching coaching. I don't want to hijack the thread...  But here's a for-instance.... I have the Biblical Archaeology Review Collection... I also have the physical collection ... I was doing a Bible study about the Christmas story... wanted to highlight Mary and Joseph's walk to Bethlehem... and the possibility of their passing beneath the shadow of the Herodium... and the challenge of faith in believing that Mary's unborn child was the true king of the Jews... while walking by Herod's Herodium... which was at the time the second largest palace complex in the world. I knew BAR did a feature article on the site. So I made a collection of the BAR issues and searched for "Herodium". It pulled up tons of stuff... mostly worthless. Lots of stuff that was some unrelated footnote... some mention in a letter to the editor... some author bio note that mentions he excavated at this site, that site, some other place, and oh, yeah, Herodium. Over and over and over again. And just a pile of unuseful references.I just needed the main article from the issue that had the pic on the cover. I could have gone to my closet, looked through the magazines, and found what I needed in less than five minutes. In Logos, I had to open every reference until I found what I wanted... and of course, it was way down the list. It took a LOOOONG time. Is there a way to eliminate this kind of thing??

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 21 2011 10:47 PM

EmileB:

Yeah, I'd definitely agree I need some searching coaching. I don't want to hijack the thread...  But here's a for-instance.... I have the Biblical Archaeology Review Collection... I also have the physical collection ... I was doing a Bible study about the Christmas story... wanted to highlight Mary and Joseph's walk to Bethlehem... and the possibility of their passing beneath the shadow of the Herodium... and the challenge of faith in believing that Mary's unborn child was the true king of the Jews... while walking by Herod's Herodium... which was at the time the second largest palace complex in the world. I knew BAR did a feature article on the site. So I made a collection of the BAR issues and searched for "Herodium". It pulled up tons of stuff... mostly worthless. Lots of stuff that was some unrelated footnote... some mention in a letter to the editor... some author bio note that mentions he excavated at this site, that site, some other place, and oh, yeah, Herodium. Over and over and over again. And just a pile of unuseful references.I just needed the main article from the issue that had the pic on the cover. I could have gone to my closet, looked through the magazines, and found what I needed in less than five minutes. In Logos, I had to open every reference until I found what I wanted... and of course, it was way down the list. It took a LOOOONG time. Is there a way to eliminate this kind of thing??

When looking in closet at stack of magazines, search criteria had story elements plus cover picture.  Logos 4 has option to search Large Text (e.g. Herodium) plus proximity search: e.g. Herodium WITHIN 100 WORDS (Mary, Joseph, journey).  If do a basic search of my Entire Library for Herodium, a Topics section is included (has twice as many entries as Large Text search).  Searching Description for Herodium in Entire Library found an article about Ruth gathering grain at the foot of Herodium  logosres:hlmnqsgdbbl;ref=Page.p_53;off=540

Fr. Charles R. Matheny:
Just for giggle and grins- install on two Macs, exactly the same, same everything, same set up, nothing different at all- the result will be - the program will not run the same on both.

Apologies - unable to replicate.  Installed Logos 4 Mac on a 27" iMac, followed by using Apple's DIsk Utility to copy partition to an external USB drive.  Now using Logos 4.2a SR-2 on a 20" iMac with two user installations on internal drive and my user installation on an external USB drive.  The 20" iMac has a 2.4 GHz Intel Core 2 Duo processor that is much slower than 2.8 GHz Intel Quad Core i7 in 27" iMac so overall responsiveness on 20" iMac is sluggish.  While running Handbrake to process Logos videos for use on an iPad (resource intensive), opened a layout in Logos 4 that was very sluggish to open several floating windows and half dozen bibles (disk contention more than doubled time to open layout).  Decided to postpone layout review until after video processing done.

Logos 4.2a SR-2 is usable on older 20" iMac (albeit sluggish compared to 27" iMac); dreaming of iMac and Mac Mini model refreshes later this year with 2nd generation Intel Core i series processors (especially i5 and i7) along with fast disk drives (e.g. RAID 0 striping, perhaps with Solid State Drives).

Three Logos 4 Mac menus can be irritating to use: File, Guides, and Layouts since they benefit from quick click to display menu (may take seconds) then left OR right click on menu items, which is quite different than historic Mac convention of click and hold mouse to drag for desired menu selection, then release mouse button.  Watching someone else struggle to choose a saved layout helped me realize what had become natural (e.g. click and wait for menu, then right or left click menu item).

tom collinge:

Fr. Charles R. Matheny:

Being told to turn off the features , sounds to me like being told: Yep, this car as excellent Air Conditioning! You just can't use it while your driving.

Blessings all.

Yes

Knowing when to use some Logos 4 features can dramatically affect performance (on Mac's and PC's).  For example, trying to scroll a Bible chapter (e.g. John 1) in an Exegetical Word by Word section ranges from sluggish slow to snail slow.  Getting Started with Logos has Learning Logos section with Camp Logos effective link that includes having fewer resources and panels open at same time (after Camp Logos experience).  Personally using more layouts with fewer resources open overall for usable Logos 4 performance on 2007 model iMac and 2008 model Windows laptop.  Thankful 4 visual filters for Logos Greek Morphology display quickly on Mac and PC (when switching layouts do have to wait for highlighting to be applied).

Keep Smiling Smile

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Fr. Charles R. Matheny | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 22 2011 9:37 PM

Smile: Still sounds "exactly" like selling a guy a car, telling him "it's loaded"!

However, you can't use the features while driving.

If you want it to run well, efficiently, with good performance, you must: Turn off the air conditioning, add extra air to the ties, take out extra weight, perhaps back seats as well, wash and wax, extra wax, put tape over all cracks to avoid wind restrictions, use only high octane aircraft fuel, add a turbo, duel exhausts. Ok, now it will run well, but if you turn on air conditioning, play the stereo, use regular fuel- it will perform poorly.

Come on guys- we are grown ups.

Logos has some problems, they are working on them.

The reason they are working on them is because they are problems.

The "main reason" I have a Mac is I don't want to "work on my computer, have to tweek it" , I just want to do my work -on my computer. There is a difference.

Great thing about a Mac , I but it, I take it out of the box, I start it, I load my programs, I go to work.

I just purchased another Imac for a company I help care for, took it out of the box, turned it on, it found the network, I loaded the software, They went to work. Done.

I built many computers, I have changed out many, many sets of ram, video cards, over-clocked, trimmed operating systems, you name it.

Just as with racing cars, I have hopped up many computers and operating systems, I went through that stage.

But Missionaries and Pastors have other responsibilities, they just need to be able to turn it on, and go to work.

Lord have Mercy.

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Mar 23 2011 1:05 AM

Fr. Charles R. Matheny:

Smile: Still sounds "exactly" like selling a guy a car, telling him "it's loaded"!

Apologies - desire to help use Logos Bible Software effectively.

By the way, remembered an expensive four wheel drive vehicle manufacturer's manual that included monitoring temperature gauge while driving, especially if towing a heavy trailer.  If gauge too high, turning off air conditioning, slowing down, and turning on heater with windows down were recommended actions to avoid radiator or engine failure; driver decided what to do.  Same vehicle needed premium fuel to keep V-8 engine from knocking during travel in Rocky Mountains.  The expensive "loaded" vehicle had features (e.g. low range gearing) that needed to be used appropriately (e.g. low range not good while turning on dry pavement since could damage transmission and "buck" vehicle).  To safely operate four wheel vehicle, prudent to know vehicle's capabilities and limitations (especially for off road use).

Fr. Charles R. Matheny:

Logos has some problems, they are working on them.

The reason they are working on them is because they are problems.

Based on past experience (during Logos 4 Mac Alpha pre-releases felt like opening a present every 2 weeks to experience what had been exposed for Bible Study use), looking forward to Logos 4 feature enhancements and performance optimizations on Mac & PC.  Thankful Logos 4.2a SR-2 is the best Logos Bible Study software ever shipped for Mac; still amazed what can be used today Geeked

Fr. Charles R. Matheny:

The "main reason" I have a Mac is I don't want to "work on my computer, have to tweek it" , I just want to do my work -on my computer. There is a difference.

Great thing about a Mac , I but it, I take it out of the box, I start it, I load my programs, I go to work.

Understand - for next computer purchase, hoping to buy another Mac; dreaming of iMac and Mac Mini model refreshes later this year with 2nd Generation Intel Core i5 or i7.  Reading rumors about iMac refresh in early May.

Fr. Charles R. Matheny:
But Missionaries and Pastors have other responsibilities, they just need to be able to turn it on, and go to work.

Thankful Forum MVP & Pastor Mark Barnes created: Excellent Unofficial Logos 4 Training Videos - (watching all videos recommendedTip: PC control key often becomes command key on Mac.

The first training video is about installation and indexing that typically take several hours.  Hence recommendation for initial installation and indexing when not planning to use computer for hours.  Observation: initial resource download time depends on internet connection capabilities.

Likewise Thankful for friendly forum discussions.

Logos 4 is a powerful Bible Study program where learning features and capabilities can take months of use – practice and perseverance produces powerful results.

Keep Smiling Smile

 

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Mike Binks | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Mar 23 2011 5:14 AM

Well actually,

Actually if you want your car to run fuel efficiently you..

 

Turn off the air conditioning, (I seem to remember that is a saving of about 5%)

add extra air to the ties, (there are significant fuel advantages to keeping the tyres correctly inflated)

take out extra weight, (boy the amount of fuel wasted because people carry unneeded items is huge)

perhaps back seats as well, wash and wax, extra wax, put tape over all cracks to avoid wind restrictions, (well if you really insist)

use only high octane aircraft fuel, (actually likely to be counter productive)

add a turbo, duel exhausts. (might help but not likely to be cost effective)

Ok, now it will run well, but if you turn on air conditioning, play the stereo, use regular fuel- it will perform poorly.

tootle pip

Mike

How to get logs and post them. (now tagging post-apocalyptic fiction as current affairs)

Posts 757
Fr. Charles R. Matheny | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Mar 23 2011 6:00 AM

Ok, I get it.

Foolish to try Logos 4 mac on late 2009 macbook alum. 4 gig of ram.

Foolish to try Logos on current, stock, Macbook Pro 13".

Sorry, I did not understand this.

Posts 570
Rev Chris | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Mar 23 2011 7:44 AM

Fr. Charles R. Matheny:

Ok, I get it.

Foolish to try Logos 4 mac on late 2009 macbook alum. 4 gig of ram.

Foolish to try Logos on current, stock, Macbook Pro 13".

Sorry, I did not understand this.

 

I'm running a late 2009 MBP and Logos runs great.  Yes, I spent $83 to upgrade my ram (actually, $63 with a $20 rebate from Newegg) - that's for 8gb.  But, that wasn't so much for Logos as it was for all my programs.  I run Mac Spaces with a 4x3 grid and generally have quite a few programs open at once.  So, yes I needed the ram.  But, running Logos by itself or even with just one or two programs open when I had 4gb of ram was still just fine.

I've been following this thread since the beginning and I'm really disappointed in where it's gone.  It started out with an honest question, followed by honest and helpful feedback.  Now it's become more of a thread of bitterness and hate.  I wonder, how much have you naysayers spent on Logos?  I've invested quite a bit so I want it to succeed.  Do I wish it was better, faster, more powerful?  Sure - but I wish that for all the programs I run.  When people say that no other software program could survive on the market if it was released with problems like this, I beg to differ.  Many other programs have done just that.  One need only look at Antenna-Gate from the iPhone 4 release.  It wasn't a beta release - it was a full release and it had some serious issues.  People complained, sure.  But Apple also worked on the issues and fixed them (just as I believe Logos is doing as they have claimed in this thread) and nobody can say the iPhone is a failure or that the market rejected it.  One of the great features IMO about software programs is the updates that happen to them.  It's like a little Christmas (without the Jesus) every time a new version is released.  People expect software to be improved upon and they look forward to each improvement.  Part of me even wonders if a program could be as "successful" in the long-term if it was released "fully-finished" or "as good as can be" from the start.  Maybe so, but since rarely does any good software program fall into that category, I think it's fair to say Logos is not alone and should be given a chance.

As I've posted above, there are some things that the user can do to make the program run better.  Some of these, yes, require you to make some adjustments to your computer.  Running in 64-bit mode helps a ton and we can't fault Logos for Apple not turning that on by default.  Adding ram if you're below 4gb can also help - again, don't fault Logos for having a computer that isn't up to today's standards.  Instead, spend the $40 to buy 4gb of ram - after all, you're willing to spend hundreds on this software, right?  Yes, it might take some adjustments to Logos to make it run more smoothly as well.  Those are really user customizations.  I'm sure some people would like every option that currently loads in the Passage Guide and the Exegetical Guide, but for most people it makes sense to customize.  Personally I don't like software that I can't customize, and I'm thankful for the plethora of options Logos offers.

If you have a serious issue with the program and think the developers need to hear your new information, then by all means share it.  That's how these programs get better.  But just making snide or sarcastic comments doesn't help anyone.  Which brings me back to my earlier question - how much have you guys really spent on Logos?  If you've invested the hundreds (even thousands) that some of us have, wouldn't you want to help make this a better program by offering helpful feedback?  To that point, wouldn't you want to spend 10 or 20 minutes making your investment pay off by applying a few tips?

Criticism is generally good - if it is in the spirit of helping one improve their work.  But most of the complaints in this thread are not in that spirit - they are more along the lines of tearing people down.  Hardly what I would call a Christian ethic.  I wonder - if you had a good friend or family member who worked for Logos and spent hours and hours doing something they felt was meaningful, important and helpful for thousands of Christians across the land, would you still be so quick to offer your harsh words on a public forum?  If so, I feel sorry for you - and for your friends/family.  If not, well, I have to ask "and who is our neighbor?"

 

Pastor, seminary trustee, and app developer.  Check out my latest app for churches: The Church App

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Fr. Charles R. Matheny | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Mar 23 2011 8:11 AM

Again, my only complain is that people marginalize those with actual problems because " well, it works fine on my machine".

As I have said repeatedly:" Logos is having some issues, the programmers are working on it, they admit there are issues- thus, the issues are real, it is not the fault of the end user".

What bothers me to no end, is to marginalize the missionary who does not have time, money, resources, to tweak and modify a machine that meets all the advertised requirements, or, has an install that is not working correctly which is no fault of the end user, nor of the Mac platform.

I don't have a problem with the fact Logos has admitted to issues they are working on, that's not my point.

It is less than helpful to constantly hear everyone else should be fine because something is working on highly modified machines or some regular machines and installs.

 

The software tweek's, wiki and such are helpful, but should be noted as things one needs to do so Logos can run effectively now, "because of the known issues" .

It needs to be stated to these folks that the full feature set ( what is available now as such) cannot be fully utilized on normal, regular machines unless on can allow for the performance hits, crashes, lack of scrolling in certain areas etc.

 

They do not need to be made to feel something is wrong with them or their machine.

It is unusable for me in daily use, ok for occasional use, and for me, that's fine, I have recourse to other resources, whereas others do not.

Logos advertised something, people made decisions based on that, some, a great many, are having difficulties, they do not need to be marginalized , but instead, supported.

Last things they want to hear: "It works great for me', "just change out hard-drive and memory".

 

For many, many in Ministry, Logos is one of the heaviest investments they make.

Many are finding it hard to stay in ministry, Churches are taking huge financial hits, more Pastors bi-vocational now than anytime I have known of, more Churches closing, resources extremely tight for many.

So again, my concern was/is about the folks for whom this situation is already a real difficulty, are not wealthy, are not computer geeks, have limited resources, and just need to be about their Vocation of building up the body of Christ and expanding the Kingdom.

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