Logos 4 running slow on mac...

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This post has 95 Replies | 7 Followers

Posts 190
EmileB | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Mar 23 2011 1:53 PM

Chris, I really am sorry you feel that way... I have to agree with the posts that struggle with the fact that those of us who have been experiencing problems are strongly feeling somehow marginalized (as one poster termed it)... because "there must be something wrong with your machine"... "there must be something wrong with you as a user"... and now... "you must not have invested much into the software like the rest of us have (so, therefore, don't criticize)"... 

Excuse me, but I have invested - literally -  more than $10,000 in this program over the years. NOT including the hardware upgrades (solely) necessary to run it effectively. I am now in a position of needing to do so again, and have been discussing my concerns about doing so with others in this forum, which was, according to my understanding, the purpose of the forum.   I have been investing in Logos from almost the start up of the company. To dismiss me as a "naysayer" is quite unjust... and would be if my investment had been "merely" $1000 or $100.No one wants the company to succeed any more than I do. That is precisely WHY I'm voicing the concerns.

I disagree with your other claims as well, and I think they lack a sensitivity to us and what we are trying to say. My greater concern, however, is that throughout your post, you also make many judgments about the character and motivation and intentions of those who are simply trying to be heard that 1) in our experience, the SOFTWARE has some problems; and that 2) it is getting to the point that further excessive investments in our time and resources are no longer seeming to be good stewardship to us, as we find it detracting rather than enhancing to our ministries... and that maybe Logos needs to reexamine its direction in a few areas. There was no intention of trying to be "snide", "sarcastic", or being "full of bitterness and hate", or seeking to "tear people down" or demonstrate an unChristian ethic as you claim in your post. Who is speaking uncharitably and unjustly here??? In none of the posts that I have read on this thread, have I seen anyone on either side of the issue question the heart, motives or integrity of anyone here, or their "christian ethic". Until now.

I regret that our posts have seemed to have been taken by you so personally... I am sure that has been no one's intention. And it is my firm belief that no one ever intended or has it in their hearts to diminish others. If I have in any way in any of my posts offended you or anyone else, you have my sincerest apologies and my strongest testimony that that was not my intent.

In light of your post, however, I believe that I will henceforth no longer comment on this or any of the other forums.

Posts 570
Rev Chris | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Mar 23 2011 2:12 PM

EmilyB,

I'm sorry if I offended you with my post.  I was not trying to say that all criticism on this thread has been unduly harsh or unwarranted.  Rather, it seems that some of it has.  As I said in my post, criticism is good if it is in the spirit of helping one improve their work.  Those of us that have invested money into the program (you included) want to see it succeed, and helpful criticism is a way of making that happen.  Yes, I've been frustrated by the slowness of Logos at times - and I'm glad to see that the developers are taking notice - but I also am not just refusing to make adjustments myself so that the program does what I need it to in the mean time.  I don't think it's quite fair to say that the 'investments in our time' are excessive to make this program run more smoothly - after all it took me less time to make those adjustments than it has to contribute to this thread.

Please don't take my post as wishing you to no longer contribute.  I just want to see helpful contributions.  Somtimes those mean raising valid concerns with the program so that the developers can work on them, sometimes it means adding insight for those of you who are yourselves developers, as you have done so well, and sometimes it means us help each other to make adjustments to our machines and the personalization of the software so we can all be more effective in the use of our time.

Perhaps my post was too harsh in its language - if so, I apologize.  But, I also hope that we can use this thread and the other threads on this forum to further conversation rather than simply repeating frustrations that have already been voiced - which is where I felt some of the comments were heading in this thread.

Pastor, seminary trustee, and app developer.  Check out my latest app for churches: The Church App

Posts 15805
Forum MVP
Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Mar 23 2011 6:10 PM

Rev Chris:
Please don't take my post as wishing you to no longer contribute.  I just want to see helpful contributions.  Somtimes those mean raising valid concerns with the program so that the developers can work on them, sometimes it means adding insight for those of you who are yourselves developers, as you have done so well, and sometimes it means us help each other to make adjustments to our machines and the personalization of the software so we can all be more effective in the use of our time.

Likewise longing for helpful contributions.  As a Logos user, desire to help use Logos Bible Software effectively along with improvement suggestions.  Thankful for many Logos 4 improvements already implemented plus looking forward to more.  Also Thankful for David Mitchell's earlier response:

David Mitchell:

Mike Binks:
Logos is not Dog Slow for everyone; it is Dog Slow for some. That is very annoying for them - and eventually Logos will get to the bottom of the problem.

Working on performance issues is a high priority issue for everyone working on the Mac product (and for me, in particular). As many users have observed, version 4.2a had a number of improvements in this area; the next version will have even more.

I'd also like to take a moment to thank all of our forum users who jump into threads like these with useful tips for improving the experience in the meantime. I know that for some people, your help has been indispensable while we work on much-needed improvement. Your aid is very much appreciated.

While watching Logos Tutorial Video #4 – Searching, noticed “By Book” became “By Title” when “By Count” was added to Logos 4 (sort “By Book” results), a good improvement.

Also noticed Logos 4 PC Bible Search for camels in Top Bibles, when mouse hovers over grid box, verse pop-up appears, which is missing in Logos 4.2a SR-3 on Mac.  Also noticed Mac mouse pointer does not change to hand when over Bible header (e.g. ESV), but clicking on Bible version does quickly change text in Grid display.

Clicking on Top Bibles to see other resources to search took a couple seconds on an older 2007 model iMac with 2.4 GHz Intel Core 2 Duo.  In Bible Search on 2008 model laptop with Intel Core 2 Duo P8400 2.26 GHz processor, drop down menu feels quicker since noticed Top Bibles, All Bibles, and All Open Bibles appear quickly, then rest of drop-down menu appears later (overall about same on Mac & PC for all search drop down choices to appear on my older hardware).

For human interaction, wish Logos 4 drop down menus on Mac & PC would display in under one second (quick enough to not interrupt flow of thought).

Updated Feature Parity since some Logos 4 PC features are not yet available on Mac, which now has 7 bullets summarizing forum discussions.  Also updated Logos 4 Mac wiki page What to Expect section with observation about three Logos 4 Mac menus being different than historical Mac conventions and Interested in Using Logos 4 Mac ? section, prompted by several thoughts expressed in this thread = Thanks to all for participation.

Keep Smiling Smile

Posts 757
Fr. Charles R. Matheny | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Mar 23 2011 8:32 PM

Good Post EmilyB.

As far as helpful contributions, I think many have tried to do just that, I know I have, in the past and recently, usually in a lighthearted manner with a little humor ( granted it may be dry).

 

I would think, and  perhaps it's just me, but I would think those like EmilyB have already made the needed helpful contribution, they did so with their hard earned dollars.

Most did not pay those funds in order to be testers and tweaker's of software, but to use a product advertised as ready to be used, in that area, I would say they already made their contribution towards an agreed transaction.

If the consumer's hardware meets the specifications stated as required for the software, paid the fee for the software, then any contribution required on the part of the consumer,  has been fully met.

The consumer is not required to be understanding or helpful to the development of the Software Companies Product.

 

Posts 2964
tom | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Mar 24 2011 4:36 AM

Fr. Charles R. Matheny:

Most did not pay those funds in order to be testers and tweaker's of software, but to use a product advertised as ready to be used, in that area, I would say they already made their contribution towards an agreed transaction.

If the consumer's hardware meets the specifications stated as required for the software, paid the fee for the software, then any contribution required on the part of the consumer,  has been fully met.

The consumer is not required to be understanding or helpful to the development of the Software Companies Product.

Yes

Posts 242
Nielsen Tomazini | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Mar 24 2011 7:37 AM

 

Dear Chris,

I would like to make some comments on one of your posts because I disagree with you in some points.
Let me clarify something here. I am not primarily a Mac user, I am a PC! But I am using a Mac as well as part of my job. And part of my job is to help people use Logos 4. Therefore, my concerns are not limited to Logos 4 Mac, my concerns are with both platforms.  

Rev Chris:
Now it's become more of a thread of bitterness and hate

I don’t know if someone is being bitter or expressing hate here. I am one who criticized the way Logos releases their products but on the same post I expressed that I like Logos 4 and also said that I believe it is the best Bible Software in the marked. I expressed frustration and I believe this is the right place to express it because I believe the guys from Logos are participating (following)  this forum. Furthermore, posting my frustration here is a way to measure if it is just me or the problems are common to other people.

Rev Chris:
When people say that no other software program could survive on the market if it was released with problems like this, I beg to differ.  Many other programs have done just that.  One need only look at Antenna-Gate from the iPhone 4 release.  It wasn't a beta release - it was a full release and it had some serious issues.  People complained, sure.  But Apple also worked on the issues and fixed them (just as I believe Logos is doing as they have claimed in this thread) and nobody can say the iPhone is a failure or that the market rejected it.  One of the great features IMO about software programs is the updates that happen to them.  It's like a little Christmas (without the Jesus) every time a new version is released.  People expect software to be improved upon and they look forward to each improvement.


I disagree with your position here. It is quite different you have a software fully released (not a Beta!) and then you find a major failure. In the case of Apple, as soon as they acknowledge the failure, they fixed it, or at least suggested a solution. It is totally different with Logos 4. I will make my point on that below, after gathering more information.
I believe that your understandings or expectations about the program is different than other users. You see the updates as a great feature. I agree with that if it was just a matter of refining the software, and many updates on Logos 4 are just that, and it is fine, other software do the same. Adobe softwares, Firefox, Microsoft Office and many other programs also are constantly updating. This is not a problem. What is problematic is to release a software with it unfinished, and that is what Logos did which I have never seen any software company do.
Let me give you a practical example. In Libronix 3 I use (still using) the Vocabulary List. This a very handy feature to study and to teach original languages. So, when Logos 4 was released, and up to today (15 month later), Vocabulary List is not available. This is one of the missing features on Logos 4. Different from other features on Libronix 3 that were not anymore necessary in Logos 4, Vocabulary List is a good tool that is still not available. This is something, as I am insisting that is very much wrong with the way Logos released Logos 4. And when Logos announced Logos 4 for Mac, the same happened, they claimed: “Mac users: Logos 4 is here.” Yes, is here but not with all features like those who have a PC, and the PC users not with some features they used in Libronix 3. There is no other company (as far as I know) that have done that.
I participated in the Beta of Firefox 4 (just released), I participated in the Beta of Windows 7, Office 2010, and other software. Not even the Beta versions came with missing features from previous versions, they were Beta mostly to test the new features, or how the old features had been changed. Additionally, the Beta is to test instabilities in the software.

So, how long will I have to keep Libronix 3 installed in my computer? When am I going to (in fact) move on?
I am taking the time to write this all because, like everyone here, I like Logos 4 and I know all the advantages that the software bring to my Biblical studies. So, I want the best for Logos, but with my previous experiences with the release of the software I am afraid we will always have a software that looks like the theological truth of the Kingdom of God: “already but nor yet.” : )
This is not the way things should be. When Logos 4 (PC) was released, I upgraded in the first week. I believe I will not do it anymore. Maybe, when Logos 5 come out I should wait months, or years, following the forums and see what is going on, then consider an upgrade. Is this supposed to be right?

Like everyone here, I have invested in this software. I did not invest much compared to many here, I believe, little more than $ 1,300. But for a Brazilian like me, this is a lot of money. I wish I could invest more, there are many resources that I would like to be able to acquire but I can't now. So, I am trying to express here that I am writing not because I hate Logos or because I don’t like to program, etc. I am writing because I care for the software. I would like to have a professional software for Bible study, like the others software I have for other tasks.

So, now what? What can be done up to this point about the software? I believe that Logos should manifest their position on their software release policy. They should recognize that they did wrong on how they released Logos 4 (PC and Mac) and by doing so, that this will not happen again. I believe their position towards this matter would give us more confidence in the company.

 

www.aprendalogos.com 
Youtube: AprendaLogos

Posts 570
Rev Chris | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Mar 24 2011 9:02 AM

I understand there are real issues involved here.  I've never denied that nor intentionally degraded others because the program didn't work well for them as it does for me.  (granted, my last post probably moved in that direction, but I was reacting to what I perceived was undue hostility.  I'm sorry for any offense I caused).  I still disagree that Logos is the only software to be released with problems - for you PC users, look at almost every Windows iteration.  Software is complex and developers generally have a hard time knowing how software will run on all the different machines out there.  Yes, Mac's are much more uniform than PC's, and yes the developers probably should have seen the speed issues in their own testing.  But, my main point that I still hold to is that you've expressed your dissatisfaction and the developers have acknowledged that and agreed to work on it.  Now, let's move beyond the complaints and try to help one another get the most out of our investments.  To simply repeat complaints that have already been stated doesn't seem to help anyone.

Pastor, seminary trustee, and app developer.  Check out my latest app for churches: The Church App

Posts 757
Fr. Charles R. Matheny | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Mar 24 2011 9:59 PM

Well, I am giving up on Logos, at least for the near future.

I cannot for the life of me understand why they have done things the way they have, other than for profit, and, I cannot understand why people here keep acting like it is our responsibility to help Logos with their product issues.

I have been through this before with another company, and the results were a disaster.

The more I read, the more I understand that Logos has a "track record" of not performing as advertised, yet they keep advertising and selling faulty product.

This is certainly not ethical business practices.

I hope they get it worked out, the potential is good, very good in fact.

But at this point, the whole thing is just a bit much for me.

Will check on progress from time to time.

Wish all of you the very best and, Thanks for listening to my struggles with this.

As it seems I have offended some, please know it was not my intention to do so and, I pray your forgiveness , I was just trying to be open and honest.

Grace and Peace.

Posts 42
Jason Forbes | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 25 2011 8:41 PM

G'day,

First of all, I love Logos4. I've been using it on my PC (3.16Ghz Deul Core, 4GB ram) for over a year, and my only complaint has been with the delay when typing notes. I've found it really snappy to use once it's loaded.

Recently I purchased a MacBook Air (11", 1.4Ghz, 2GB ram, 128GB HD). This is my first Mac. I am, (was?) a diehard PC guy Now, I know it's no powerhouse, not compared to my PC! But all the same, I'm disappointed with the performance of Logos4Mac. All my other apps are really snappy (MS Office:Mac), and is very responsive with everything I do on it, except for Logos4. Like, 3secs for the pop-up menu to appear? That's not slow. That's painful.

Then I heard more powereful Macs have the same problem. So just for kicks, I installed Windows XP via VirtualBox, and then Logos4PC on my Mac. To my astonishment, it actually ran smoother! Again, it wasn't as snappy as it is on my PC. It never would be. But it was noticably quicker.

I also have iStats so I can see what the Mac is doing. With Logos4Mac, the CPU usage is through the roof! But if I run Logos4PC via VirtualBox -> XP, the CPU usage is only around 25%.

Now, I'm no coder, but all this suggests to me something has gone wrong in the coding for Logos4Mac. I'd really like to see a new version of Logos4Mac built from the ground up.

In the meantime, I'll be using Logos4PC, on my Mac. Tongue Tied

Posts 191
Jacques | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 25 2011 9:35 PM

Jason;

Same here!

I've been using Logos 4 PC for my Mac via Parallels for some time now. It's MUCH better. Better GUI, more features and shortcuts, faster, less buggy. It looks better. It's got rollover. It doesn't have the location bar glitch, which annoys me way too much.

Logos needs something new in their programming department, badly. It's just a bizarre app in some ways. It's slower than it should be, no doubt.

But man, is it a great program! I've seen nothing like it, and the company is growing successfuly and debt-free.

(shrug)

The ironic thing is, Mac is so known for GUI and so forth - and in this case, Logos 4 PC is in so many ways a much nicer program. 

have a good weekend

Jacques

Posts 109
Darryl Burling | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 25 2011 9:52 PM

It would be nice to have an update from Logos on how this is going.  According to this thread they were working on performance improvements in March, so it would be nice to hear how those have gone...

David Mitchell:

Working on performance issues is a high priority issue for everyone working on the Mac product (and for me, in particular). As many users have observed, version 4.2a had a number of improvements in this area; the next version will have even more.

David, can you provide an update for us on performance improvements to Logos for Mac?

Thanks! 

Posts 15805
Forum MVP
Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 25 2011 9:55 PM

Jacques:
The ironic thing is, Mac is so known for GUI and so forth - and in this case, Logos 4 PC is in so many ways a much nicer program. 

Concur Logos 4 PC currently has more capabilities than Logos 4 Mac.  While Logos 4.3 Beta cycle included bugginess, also Thankful for many Logos 4 Mac improvements, noted in wiki Mac and PC User Interface Differences => Feature Parity section.

Option: if running Logos 4 in PC virtual machine on Mac, then could install Logos 4 Mac Beta for comparison, wiki has Logos 4 Beta Program page with Beta program information and risks.

Thankful for Bob Pritchett's post on 12 May 2011 => What Logos development is doing that included:

Bob Pritchett:
Windows has more users than Mac, but Mac is behind and needs improvement, and it is gaining market share on the way to 50%. We consider it equally important to Windows, and already are at the point where some new work is Mac first, then ported to Windows.

and

Bob Pritchett:
P.S. Know a great software developer? Send them our way!

Keep Smiling Smile

Posts 912
David Knoll | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jun 26 2011 3:53 AM

Does anyone know if the gestures are supposed to work on L4Mac? 

I have a Magic Trackad

Posts 191
Jacques | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jun 27 2011 9:58 AM

Logos for Mac doesn't use the Magic Trackpad in any special way, as far as I could find.

I just bought one however, and have been exploring! There's a great app called BetterTouchTool that let's you configure ALL KINDS of shortcuts, global or app specific.

Check it out. It's free. Use Macupdate.com to find it.

Jacques

Posts 912
David Knoll | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 28 2011 7:15 AM

Jacques:

Logos for Mac doesn't use the Magic Trackpad in any special way, as far as I could find.

I just bought one however, and have been exploring! There's a great app called BetterTouchTool that let's you configure ALL KINDS of shortcuts, global or app specific.

Check it out. It's free. Use Macupdate.com to find it.

Jacques

Thanks I am trying to have the keyboard shortcut to TOC display Shift+Cmd+c link to a gesture but it doesn't work for me. Have you managed to do that with BetterTouchTool? Interface is not that intuitive...

 

Posts 191
Jacques | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 1 2011 8:19 AM

Yup, I just tried it works fine.

I find the interface to be very easy, but ugly. =)

Open the BTT preferences, select Trackpad / Magic Trackpad. Shortcuts can be set for Global use or per App specific. In this case, choose App specific by hitting the plus symbol within the far left section. Choose Logos in your applications folder and then in the center section choose Add new gesture. Choose then a Gesture such as 'Single Finger Bottom Tap Middle' (that's what I did for the test). Then go into the box for Custom Keyboard Shortcut and hit a quick Command Shift C.

That's it!

I must say, I absolutely have flipped out over using BTT with the Magic Trackpad. It's SO powerful! I've set up numerous global shortcuts and app specifics, it's quite powerful. I'm refining as I go..

If you are still having trouble setting, we can set up an iChat share screen session so I can show you literally. =)

have a great weekend

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