It's time to start developing Logos 5

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This post has 89 Replies | 5 Followers

Posts 26
Richard Hendricks | Forum Activity | Posted: Fri, Apr 22 2011 8:59 PM

Logos 4 is too slow, too bloated, an relies on indexing technology which is completely outmoded. It's still missing too many things which we loved about Logos 3. And it's still the slowest of the Bible software packages for searching the Bible.

It's time to scrap the whole thing and reprogram the software and resources from scratch, with SPEED as the priority.

Posts 34356
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Apr 22 2011 9:44 PM

Richard Hendricks:
relies on indexing technology which is completely outmoded.

could you expand on this?

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 138
Steve Caswell | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Apr 22 2011 9:57 PM

I think that that's a bit unfare. I ran a search yesterday on Paul for my entire library and came up with 251, 973 hits in 82, 819 artices in 951 resources in .46 of a second.I also ran a Bible search on David in all of my english Bibles and came up with 30, 309 hits from 26,239 verses in 34 resources in 1.34 seconds.  That's pretty fast in my way of thinking. It may be that your computer needs to be updated to wrok faster with the new search engines used by Logos 4.

Steve Caswell

Posts 3859
Floyd Johnson | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Apr 22 2011 10:18 PM

... or choose to use one of the other products.  Not a wrong choice if they really are faster for you.

Blessings,
Floyd

Pastor-Patrick.blogspot.com

Posts 19352
Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Apr 22 2011 10:25 PM

Richard Hendricks:
It's time to scrap the whole thing and reprogram the software and resources from scratch

They just scrapped the whole thing and rewrote it from scratch for L4, which shipped less than 18 months ago. And it took them 2-3 years to write it all over again. They're not likely to do that again any time soon. And it's a good thing, too. When they started over from scratch, they had a brand new product that was very buggy coming out the gate and needed lots of beta testing to get it ready to ship. What they've got now has been getting more and more stable and faster and faster since it shipped. They are probably better off continuing to improve this relatively new codebase rather than ditching it and beginning all over again.

The one thing that might need to be chucked at some point (maybe for L5...which probably won't be for another couple of years at least, I'm guessing) would be WPF as a display engine. But I'm guessing they could replace it with something else developed in-house (if they decide to do that) without scrapping the entire product. And that would probably result in significant performance improvement for people with older machines. But frankly, the longer it takes for them to get around to doing this, the less relevant it will be that people today who have less powerful machines don't have a good experience running Logos. In three years, those machines will be ancient dinosaurs. Logos has always claimed they develop for the cutting edge machines, and plan for long shelf-life of their product. EDIT: The first couple of years after a rewrite are always tough, but then as time goes on more and more people LOVE the product and would never want to switch to the next version. We're seeing the tail end of that cycle now with the L3-->L4 transition, but a year from now I'm sure it will be only a distant memory and will have a few years to enjoy Logos 4 as the best bar none.

Posts 1507
Wild Eagle | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Apr 22 2011 10:37 PM

There is no way to satisfy everybody. I think that L4 is the best Bible software. Thank you Logos so much. I am so much blessed by using Logos. Yes

"No man is greater than his prayer life. The pastor who is not praying is playing; the people who are not praying are straying." Leonard Ravenhill 

Posts 579
Jim VanSchoonhoven | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Apr 22 2011 11:32 PM

I teach others how to study the scriptures using bible programs, I recently bought some of the very latest programs from other companies to learn their new features so I could help people with those programs.

It is amazing how fast and simply some of the programs are for searching and note taking as well as other features.  For many of these programs the thing they lack the most is a large selection of books, which is a moot point for many believers because they will never need more books than some of these programs have.

I was shocked to see two of these companies have started working together and you can now buy commentaries for one of the best language programs from another company.  Commentaries such as the New International commentary on the Old and New Testaments plus four former NIC volumes for 1099.99.

However, getting back to the point being made, if you take 10 bibles and do a search in these other programs you will be shocked to see how fast they do the search in and how simple it is to do the search.

I am afraid that Logos 4 has allowed some of these other companies to make tremendous strides in catching up to Logos, and their prices for the lower packages are very inexpensive, and easy to add PD books to them.  For most believers these will be great tools, for me they lack the book selection I need or at least that I want, but some of the now have several thousands of books one of them has 3-4000 books and they are growing each week.

The point being as much as I love Logos, because of the things it lacks something needs to be done if they want to be more useful to the average believer than several of the other companies are.

In Christ,

Jim VanSchoonhoven

Posts 401
Sam West | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 23 2011 3:34 AM

Jim VanSchoonhoven:

I teach others how to study the scriptures using bible programs, I recently bought some of the very latest programs from other companies to learn their new features so I could help people with those programs.

It is amazing how fast and simply some of the programs are for searching and note taking as well as other features.  For many of these programs the thing they lack the most is a large selection of books, which is a moot point for many believers because they will never need more books than some of these programs have.

I was shocked to see two of these companies have started working together and you can now buy commentaries for one of the best language programs from another company.  Commentaries such as the New International commentary on the Old and New Testaments plus four former NIC volumes for 1099.99.

However, getting back to the point being made, if you take 10 bibles and do a search in these other programs you will be shocked to see how fast they do the search in and how simple it is to do the search.

I am afraid that Logos 4 has allowed some of these other companies to make tremendous strides in catching up to Logos, and their prices for the lower packages are very inexpensive, and easy to add PD books to them.  For most believers these will be great tools, for me they lack the book selection I need or at least that I want, but some of the now have several thousands of books one of them has 3-4000 books and they are growing each week.

The point being as much as I love Logos, because of the things it lacks something needs to be done if they want to be more useful to the average believer than several of the other companies are.

In Christ,

Jim VanSchoonhoven

 

Jim i invest a lot of time in Logos 4 and i am pretty happy with it. But if there is something out their that would make my work load a little easier i would like to know about it. you sound like you are up to speed on the other programs and if you don't mind please give some names that i might do some research on.

thanks

Posts 13423
Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 23 2011 3:35 AM

Richard Hendricks:
It's time to scrap the whole thing and reprogram the software and resources from scratch, with SPEED as the priority.

By the time Logos 5 is out, you'll have updated your computer at least once, and Logos 4 will fly!

Posts 4508
Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 23 2011 3:47 AM

Jim VanSchoonhoven:
However, getting back to the point being made, if you take 10 bibles and do a search in these other programs you will be shocked to see how fast they do the search in and how simple it is to do the search.

 

Jim,

No...I'm sure I wouldn't be shocked...but what KIND of search are you doing to test this capacity?

Are you performing a "dumb" search like "God, Jesus, Spirit"....or something equally easy for many bible programs?

If so...then yes....they are very fast....but that's the extent of their capability.....

 

That brings up a good point...if a person just wants to search to see how many times the English word "believed" is used in the bible then maybe all they need is "one of the other products"....they do that just fine.

 

What KIND of search are you referring to?

Robert Pavich

For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__

Posts 3163
Dominick Sela | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 23 2011 5:04 AM

This has been covered ad nauseum on these forums many times in the past, but the whole purpose of rewriting and moving to a new foundation of software (WPF, .NET, and other device technologies) was to have a platform to build and add upon for a long time.  There is much that can and should be done to version 4 before it is obsoleted. The underlying technologies that Logos relies on will dramatically improve as well in the coming years.  Don't hold your breath for Logos 5, no reason for it and it would be a suicidal business move IMHO.

Posts 2964
tom | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 23 2011 5:20 AM

Mark Barnes:

Richard Hendricks:
It's time to scrap the whole thing and reprogram the software and resources from scratch, with SPEED as the priority.

By the time Logos 5 is out, you'll have updated your computer at least once, and Logos 4 will fly!

Please do not tell Rosie this.  Let us say that her experience with her "mongo fast machine" is not this.  

For me, Because I just purchase a computer a year before L4 came out, the odds of me replacing my computer before L5 comes out is not likely.  I use my computers for about 10 years.

Posts 2964
tom | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 23 2011 5:32 AM

Dominick Sela:
This has been covered ad nauseum
Yes
Dominick Sela:
The underlying technologies that Logos relies on will dramatically improve as well in the coming years

This is not necessary true.  IMHO, WPF has never provided what it has promised.  And now there are rumors about the future of WPF because of HTML5.  Here is a post about it: http://charliedigital.com/2010/11/04/html5-and-the-future-of-silverlight-and-wpf/.

Again IMHO, Logos took a gamble with Microsoft's new technology WPF, and they lost.  I believe that Logos needs to run away from WPF.

Posts 4508
Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 23 2011 5:39 AM

This is the relevant paragraph from the article...it's far from a slam dunk on WPF....but then again...I'm not a tech head:

 

With that said, what baffles me is the implication that WPF is on its way out, too.  But Peter's write up concludes with the following paragraph:

Perhaps Microsoft is already hinting at its plans. Direct2D is currently the best way for developers to create high performance user interfaces in Windows, and the easiest way to use Direct2D is with HTML5, in Internet Explorer 9. Could Redmond embrace and extend HTML5 to fill in all the gaps that today need Flash or Silverlight, and then use it as the basis for Windows development? Such an approach is already popular on iOS. Stranger things have happened.

Now that's an interesting take that I wouldn't have seen coming but it would certainly be glorious.  I'd trade WPF for hardware accelerated HTML5 everywhere in a heartbeat.

 

It sounds like a lot of questions and suppositions and not a lot of hard data.....no? (Where's Geraldo Rivera?) :)

Robert Pavich

For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__

Posts 1722
LogosEmployee
Bob Pritchett | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 23 2011 6:10 AM

Well, we're not going to throw it away and start over soon. I know that for sure. :-)

We do, of course, do that -- Logos 4 is the third ground up re-write after the first platform -- but it'll be years before we do it again.

If you want lean and fast, like some of our competitors who have simple search engines, small libraries, and don't try to do fancy stuff with reports and reverse interlinears, then http://biblia.com is probably an even better solution. You don't even have to install software, and there's a large library.

We'll also be investing more in support for mobile devices, which we believe will be the platform of choice for many users when they don't need a powerful tool on a desktop machine.

Posts 61
Thomas Jackson | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 23 2011 6:18 AM

Thank you - Thank you - Thank you!

And Thanks to GOD!

Thomas

 

 

Posts 774
Jerry Bush | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 23 2011 6:35 AM

I could not have said it better than Rosie and Slava.

Ditto to both of you.

Thanks Bob and Logos, for developing the best Bible software in the world, and for being the best company in the world!

Jerry

iMac (2019 model), 3Ghz 6 Core Intel i5, 16gb Ram, Radeon Pro Graphics. 500GB SSD.

Posts 2964
tom | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 23 2011 6:49 AM

Robert Pavich:
It sounds like a lot of questions and suppositions and not a lot of hard data

You are correct.  As of right now, there is basically a bunch of questions, suppositions, and rumors.

If you search WPF, one word that is used very often to describe WPF is slow.  What is one of the main things people are complaining about L4 - it is slow.  L4 is a good program once you get past all of the "Not responding" messages (and the note issues - but that is a different issue).

FYI..I took the stranger things have happened as a being ironic.  How often does Microsoft follows Apple's lead - all of the time.

Posts 1035
Mike Pettit | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 23 2011 6:59 AM

In my mind the biggest development in Logos 4 was the whole "cloud" concept, which is one of the reasons it has been so unpopuler, it is a massive shakeup of how things work.

I did not originally like the concept but with the drive towards mobile platforms I now see the point, you have to have a cloud architecture in order to realise the mobile vision, and a very exiting vision it is too.

Posts 939
Bill Moore | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 23 2011 7:10 AM

I suspect this whole discussion is a moot one for me. I am so deeply invested in Logos that there is no way to change to another Bible program. Then again, I haven't found one to which I want to change.

Pastor, Cornerstone Baptist Church, Clinton, SC

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