What means the word monḗ in john 14:2?

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Romulo de Amorim Correa | Forum Activity | Posted: Wed, May 11 2011 5:41 PM

Hi

brothers and sisters,

I was reading  the resurrection of the sun of God by N. T. Wright and he says that: logosres:ressonofgod;ref=Page.p_446;off=382

"The normal meaning of mone, though, is of the temporary resting-place, or way-station, where a traveller would be refreshed during a journey."

I don't want to discuss N.T. Wright's Theology, but I would like to find the reference  from were he tooks this meaning of the word. Is there any source in logos that confirms  the normal meaning of the word "mone" as a "temporary" resting-place?

Thanks for any help.

Romulo Corrêa

Brasília - Brazil

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 11 2011 6:00 PM

Romulo de Amorim Correa:

Hi

brothers and sisters,

I was reading  the resurrection of the sun of God by N. T. Wright and he says that: logosres:ressonofgod;ref=Page.p_446;off=382

"The normal meaning of mone, though, is of the temporary resting-place, or way-station, where a traveller would be refreshed during a journey."

I don't want to discuss N.T. Wright's Theology, but I would like to find the reference  from were he tooks this meaning of the word. Is there any source in logos that confirms  the normal meaning of the word "mone" as a "temporary" resting-place?

Thanks for any help.

I'm swimming in dangerous waters here since I don't have N. T. Wright and you didn't say what passage this concerned.  If I am correct, you are speaking of the word μονή which appears only twice in the NT -- both in the Gospel according to John, 14.2 and 14.23.  I hate to have to disagree with the estimable bishop, but take a look at 14.2 where it speaks of the dwelling places in God's house.  If this is only a temporary dwelling place, we have little to look forward to.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 11 2011 6:30 PM

Romulo de Amorim Correa:
Is there any source in logos that confirms  the normal meaning of the word "mone" as a "temporary" resting-place?

Found one possibility "to stay overnight" for a related word in Theological Dictionary of the New Testament:

Keep Smiling Smile

Posts 10837
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Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 11 2011 6:36 PM

Romulo de Amorim Correa:

I was reading  the resurrection of the sun of God by N. T. Wright and he says that: logosres:ressonofgod;ref=Page.p_446;off=382

"The normal meaning of mone, though, is of the temporary resting-place, or way-station, where a traveller would be refreshed during a journey."

From the UBS Translator's Handbook (a Logos resource)

 Some commentators take the Greek word used here (monē) to mean “stopping place” or “resting place.” This theory suggests that heaven is a place of progression, with many resting places or stopping places along the way. It seems better, however, to seek the meaning of this word in another direction, interpreting it in light of the Greek verb (menō), meaning “to remain,” and so suggesting a permanent dwelling place. The verb “to remain” plays a significant role in John’s Gospel, and it is natural to see a connection between the noun monē and the verb menō, since both words come from the same stem. Moreover, the presupposition that it means a permanent dwelling place is supported by the indications in Jewish literature of a belief that heaven has many dwelling places.

Posts 1712
Allen Browne | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 11 2011 7:03 PM

Romulo de Amorim Correa:
I was reading  the resurrection of the sun of God by N. T. Wright and he says that: logosres:ressonofgod;ref=Page.p_446;off=382

"The normal meaning of mone, though, is of the temporary resting-place, or way-station, where a traveller would be refreshed during a journey."

I don't want to discuss N.T. Wright's Theology, but I would like to find the reference  from were he tooks this meaning of the word. Is there any source in logos that confirms  the normal meaning of the word "mone" as a "temporary" resting-place?

From memory, Wright relies on Liddel & Scott (click if you have the abridged edition), and the point he is making is that Jesus is referring to the temporary resting place of the dead before the resurrection.

That's on interesting interpretation, consistent with early church traditions and some more recent ones (e.g. Oscar Cullman.) While I have learned an enormous amount from Wright, I don't find him convincing on this one. Jesus is explaining his death to the disciples (since that's what's about to happen) -- see 13:36 -- so his aim is to explain the sense in which he (through his death) is the way to into Father's house. This is something he has to do alone, but the result of his dying for us is that we have a place in Father's house, i.e. he is the way to reconnect us to Father, to restore us to Father's household. His death will be fruitful, i.e. we will have a place (not a temporary place) in Father's household, as sons. And Jesus himself (through his death and resurrection) is the only way in which we can be restored to Father's household.

Hopefully that's useful in understanding where the good bishop is coming from, can help in evaluating his perspective. As he says, there are very few NT verses that deal with the intermediate state of the dead awaiting the resurrection, and it seems to me that he needs this one too desperately.

Posts 71
Romulo de Amorim Correa | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, May 12 2011 7:10 AM

George Somsel:

 

I'm swimming in dangerous waters here since I don't have N. T. Wright and you didn't say what passage this concerned.  If I am correct, you are speaking of the word μονή which appears only twice in the NT -- both in the Gospel according to John, 14.2 and 14.23.  I hate to have to disagree with the estimable bishop, but take a look at 14.2 where it speaks of the dwelling places in God's house.  If this is only a temporary dwelling place, we have little to look forward to.

Hi Gorge. Thanks for your help. I put the passage in the subject title of this thread. You are right. I am reffering to John 14:2.

Like I said, my interess is not to discuss the hole theology of N. T. Wright about the subjet of new creation, or, in his words, the life after the life after death. In general I agree with him.

But in this particulary case, I was unable to find suport for his claims of the "normal meaning" of the word mone.

thanks any way.

 

Romulo Corrêa

Brasília - Brazil

Posts 71
Romulo de Amorim Correa | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, May 12 2011 7:13 AM

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :):

Romulo de Amorim Correa:
Is there any source in logos that confirms  the normal meaning of the word "mone" as a "temporary" resting-place?

Found one possibility "to stay overnight" for a related word in Theological Dictionary of the New Testament:

Keep Smiling Smile

Hi Brother,

You made a point. Well, probably this the only possibility until now.  Thanks

Romulo Corrêa

Brasília - Brazil

Posts 71
Romulo de Amorim Correa | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, May 12 2011 7:17 AM

Jack Caviness:

From the UBS Translator's Handbook (a Logos resource)

 Some commentators take the Greek word used here (monē) to mean “stopping place” or “resting place.” This theory suggests that heaven is a place of progression, with many resting places or stopping places along the way. It seems better, however, to seek the meaning of this word in another direction, interpreting it in light of the Greek verb (menō), meaning “to remain,” and so suggesting a permanent dwelling place. The verb “to remain” plays a significant role in John’s Gospel, and it is natural to see a connection between the noun monē and the verb menō, since both words come from the same stem. Moreover, the presupposition that it means a permanent dwelling place is supported by the indications in Jewish literature of a belief that heaven has many dwelling places.

Hi Jack.

You see, the major of the sources points to the same conclusion, that is to say, "it means a permanent dwelling place".  The opposite of what Wright says.

Romulo Corrêa

Brasília - Brazil

Posts 10837
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Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, May 12 2011 9:11 AM

Romulo de Amorim Correa:
You see, the major of the sources points to the same conclusion, that is to say, "it means a permanent dwelling place".  The opposite of what Wright says.

It is good to consult commentaries and lexicons, but we need to do our own analysis first. Consider the context of John 14:2. Jesus has informed them of His imminent death. Then, He tells them don't let your hearts be twisted in knots, I am going to prepare a place for you. Now, if He had just used a word that they would have interpreted as a temporary dwelling, how much comfort would they have received? He then went on to say, that you may be with Me forever. Everything in the context also disagrees with Wright.

Posts 1
Ian Grant Spong | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Mar 28 2018 10:19 PM

I think what this discussion is missing is that Wright refers to the new heavens and new earth as an event after we go to heaven. In that sense then the "monai" are temporary lodgings, until heaven and earth come together. He wasn't completely satisfied with the term temporary when I heard him interviewed, because it implied that eternity is temporary. However, if we accept that the new heaven and new earth are an event further on down the road from the time of our death, then certainly Wright has a valid point. He is rather vague and I guess the Bible is deliberately so, on the exact sequence of events during the interim state between death and resurrection. But, he seems clear that the new heavens and new earth occur some "time" after the resurrection, if we even dare use the term time.

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Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Mar 30 2018 6:57 AM

Welcome to the forums Ian. Hope to see you again and often. However, note that this discussion was almost 7 years ago.

Posts 469
Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 31 2018 7:00 PM

Thanks Ian for commenting on this thread. Its an interesting read and worth reflecting on for those of us who had not read it before.  Have a blessed Easter!  Keep well Paul  

Posts 1
John Suen | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 29 2018 10:50 PM

One needs to read Wright's theology in a more holistic manner (and this is not about agreeing or disagreeing with him).  His main thesis on this is that God is not going to give up the original creation and Jesus's death and the 2nd coming are to start and to complete his salvation of the original recreation - the earth and our bodies included. Its in this context that he claims that the word "μοναὶ" is in the sense of "temporary".  In fact the Logos interlinear's sense of the greek work is "place to stay n. — a hospitable area (within a house or building) where a person can remain for a period of time". 

Nonetheless, Wright's work does inject some "freshness" of what the mainstream is believing in when it comes to "life after death/Jesus's death/atonement/resurrection/heaven/hell/man's mission on earth"..

Peace with all bros and sis..

Posts 5318
Dan Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 30 2018 6:13 AM

John Suen:

Peace with all bros and sis..

Good points and welcome to the forum John. Peace to you and all reading as well

-dan

Posts 1
Max | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 1 2021 3:30 AM

«Many interpreters have associated monai (monai) with an Aramaic word that can refer to a stopping place or resting place for a traveler on a journey. This is similar to one of the meanings the word can have in secular Greek (Pausanius 10.31.7). Origen understood the use here to refer to stations on the road to God. This may well have been the understanding of the Latin translators who translated mone (mone) by mansio, a stopping place. The English translation "mansions" can be traced back to Tyndale, but in Middle English the word simply meant "a dwelling place" (not necessarily large or imposing) with no connotation of being temporary. The interpretation put forward by Origen would have been well suited to Gnosticism, where the soul in its ascent passes through stages during which it is gradually purified of all that is material and therefore evil. It is much more likely that the word mone should be related to its cognate verb pevo (meno),which is frequently used in the Fourth Gospel to refer to the permanence of relationship between Jesus and the Father and/or Jesus and the believer. Thus the idea of a permanent dwelling place, rather than a temporary stopping place, would be in view. Luther's translation of monai by Wohnungen is very accurate here, as it has the connotation of a permanent residence.» (From my NET Bible second edition, that you can find also in the link below).


SOURCE: (http://classic.net.bible.org/passage.php?passage=Joh%2014:2,3)

Posts 1
Jordan | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Aug 10 2021 8:30 AM

In his podcast #76 will my daughter see the child she lost? Qs about heaven and loved ones: he answers the question for this verse. He says its from the brill dictionary of Ancient Greek edited by Montanari.

Posts 74
GregW | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 11 2021 3:15 AM

Jordan:

In his podcast #76 will my daughter see the child she lost? Qs about heaven and loved ones: he answers the question for this verse. He says its from the brill dictionary of Ancient Greek edited by Montanari.

Which is available as a (not cheap) resource in Logos: https://www.logos.com/product/168884/the-brill-dictionary-of-ancient-greek 

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