Windows 8 & Logos- Logo's Team thoughts?

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Posts 521
Russ White | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Mar 4 2012 12:00 PM

Bob Pritchett:
Which is why it's so important to keep an open mind and to keep re-evaluating the bigger context for fundamental changes that make bad ideas good at last.

I agree that we must be careful not to miss new things that might change the game --but remember that the GUI hasn't really "taken over" the way people thought it would. I still type out my thoughts on a keyboard --even when I'm using a visual "min mapping" software package. :-) I remember Dvorak saying, a long time ago, that handwriting recognition would never take off because absolutely no-one can write faster than they can type. People called him a fool, but he was right. He grasped the fundamental problem of human to computer interaction.

But remember that every time the compute outstrips the human ability to interface with it, you end up with the computer doing the work the human should be doing.

Bob Pritchett:
And while I could get an annually updated CD-ROM with all of America's roads, no CD-ROM could hold all the imagery of America at 3 meter resolution. No local computer could store it, or sort and aggregate the real-time reports of thousands of cars reporting back their GPS location over cellular networks for real-time traffic analysis on roads without sensors.

The problem, from a network engineer's perspective, is all this counts on:

1. The network is free. Being a network engineer, I can tell you my time doesn't come cheap --and there's no way networks will actually run themselves, or rack mount themselves, or deploy themselves, or fix themselves. The industry has come a long way since 15 years ago, but we're also seeing the impact of a bandwidth bubble from the .com bubble days still. Bandwidth isn't free by a long shot.

To provide you two things that always run in my thinking (as a network engineer)...

First, networks are simply a sop to human impatience. An example I've lifted from Tannenbaum and used many times: there is no network in the world that can beat the cost and bandwidth of an overnight box full of 2.5in hard drives. About 120TB can be shipped in 24 hours for about $40.. You won't come close to that kind of pricing in the networking world. There is actually no way for a network to ever compete with physical shipping --so long as you don't care about the delay on the circuit.

Second, competition is driving prices down, but that won't last forever. Most of the Internet core folks are running at a loss right now, being supported by other lines of business. That's not going to last forever. What's likely to happen is that that loss is going to start being eaten in the cost of content --witness the recent falling out between NetFlix and their providers as an example.

But we are really backwards in our thinking right now, trying to defy reality. I just heard someone who is at the highest levels in a networking company claim that we will be able to replace all wired access with wireless within x number of years. Shot who, in who's back yard? Didn't even know they had a cow! This person simply doesn't understand physics or wave propagation at the physical level. There is no way you can make a wireless link faster than a wired one --ever. Everything you can do with fancy modulation on a wireless carrier can be done with less noise (and therefore at a higher data rate) on a wire. From my days on the pointy end of antenna design work --the only time you use waveguide is when you need power, not better modulation or signal/noise ratios.

2. You can do all the processing remotely, and the results will be small enough to work well across a smaller pipe. This is true in some cases, but not in all cases. Cloud will be limited to those cases where the results truly are smaller than the input data, the data set is well known, and the processing required on that data set is well understood. In other words, the cloud will reign supreme where data and data processing are a commodity. I don't think Logos wants information to become a commodity business.

In your GPS example --what is UPS' competitive advantage over Fedex if they're both using the same back end systems to handle all their logistics, sales, and fleet management? Absolutely nothing. Information gives me the edge --but if information processing is handled generically in "the cloud," I no longer have anything on which to compete. Which is why most companies are going to "private cloud," rather than buying SaaS from a public provider. SaaS only works when the information input is unique, rather than the processing of that information (like Salesforce.com).

3. Remote processing is always cheaper than local processing. Maybe, maybe not. :-)  Having helped design and deploy a number of data centers (including ones that float, get dropped from the air, and all sorts of other crazy stuff!), I can tell you that the answer to that assertion is similar to the answer I give for a lot of other problems I deal with --"how many balloons fit in a bag?"

The "cutting line" between local and remote processing shifts back and forth based on the cost of compute verses the cost of bandwidth.

Bob Pritchett:
…young people are taking better advantage of social tools, extending their capabilities in ways that violate old models not because they know more useful things than we do but because they know fewer useless things than we do.

I don't buy that people are smarter, or know less or more useful stuff, now than they ever did in the past, or even that "social tools" make you a more "sociable person." What I do believe is that the way we process information internally is shaped by our information environment. For all it's worth, God gave us the written word. It's not as though God couldn't have given us a videotape to start with (at least not that I know of), and the technology to watch it. That he didn't should tell us that something about the way we process information is important.

So I don't think young folks "know less useless stuff," than we do. My experience, in fact, is just the opposite --I struggle finding young engineers who can grasp graph theory at an intuitive level, or why wireless won't ever beat wired, or can sit and think through the logical chain of reasoning required to get there. They say, "I can google it, and get the answer, before you can think it through, so I don't need to think." I just flat don't agree.

(By the way, this is why I think the next crop of great theological minds are going to come from the old folks in the engineering world --we've been taught to think, and think hard! And hence my drive to get an MDiv, then a PhD, then move into teaching in the next 10 years or so!)

Bob Pritchett:
So while we could deliver it to your local machine, you'd need to dedicate 16 gigs of RAM to the query processing system. So our present plan is to build a rich, desktop UI for this -- no iPhone interface planned! -- but actually send the queries to a dedicated server in the cloud with massive memory and SSD hard drives.

And if the network is down? Or if the network is slow? What's the cost of 16GB of RAM any longer? I have 16GB on the laptop I'm sitting here typing on, and 256GB of SSD drive. There is 6TB of storage attached to the local network (not counting the three desktop machines, the second NAS, and the four laptops). As remote process and memory capacities increase, so will local. MS uses laptop motherboards in their data centers, not some high powered compute platform --the average box in an MS data center has half (or less) the compute power I have sitting on my desk.

But the reality is the IT industry, and all industries, run in swings. Processing remote, processing local, back and forth. Don't count on a "permanent change" --we've been told "this time it's different" a lot of times before. I remember the "projected ATM bandwidth sold" charts from the 90's, too. Reality always votes last. :-)

Russ

Posts 2763
Kevin A. Purcell | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 5 2012 6:28 AM

Tony Kan:

[Quote]:  "We don't need another iPad wannabe."

I hear you ; but I worked in the market research industry for many years and I can tell you that its surprising how many people will purchase something for a different reason than yourself.

I'm not saying everyone wants what I want. I'm saying I doubt very many want what MS is making. There is the iPad, the Kindle Fire, and a bunch of Android Tablets. They are all making the appliance computer. MS charges for their OS so I doubt many hardware manufacturers will choose it over Android since it will cost more to make. They won't be able to compete with Apple who has found a way to produce a great product cheaper than anyone else can produce. Amazon has a similar product, but they admit they lose money on the device, but they can afford it because it plugs people into buying their content and they have a net gain. MS can't do that because they don't sell what Amazon sells.

What MS needed to produce to distinguish themselves was a tablet OS that could run the Logos Bible Software apps fo the world. They didn't do that so they will fail. The laptop/desktop version of Windows 8 makes no sense. I left MS because of decision like this. They are clueless and just don't get what modern consumers want and with windows 8 they are now going to alienate their business buyers, their bread and butter. Thanks to money on hand and inertia they will coast forward for a decade or more but every passing year they fail to adapt will be a year they come close to becoming and a computing afterthought like IBM now is.

My fear is that Apple is doing the same with Mt. Lion but at least they have iOS to keep them going for years to come.

Posts 2763
Kevin A. Purcell | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 5 2012 6:28 AM

Tony Kan:

[Quote]:  "We don't need another iPad wannabe."

I hear you ; but I worked in the market research industry for many years and I can tell you that its surprising how many people will purchase something for a different reason than yourself.

I'm not saying everyone wants what I want. I'm saying I doubt very many want what MS is making. There is the iPad, the Kindle Fire, and a bunch of Android Tablets. They are all making the appliance computer. MS charges for their OS so I doubt many hardware manufacturers will choose it over Android since it will cost more to make. They won't be able to compete with Apple who has found a way to produce a great product cheaper than anyone else can produce. Amazon has a similar product, but they admit they lose money on the device, but they can afford it because it plugs people into buying their content and they have a net gain. MS can't do that because they don't sell what Amazon sells.

What MS needed to produce to distinguish themselves was a tablet OS that could run the Logos Bible Software apps fo the world. They didn't do that so they will fail. The laptop/desktop version of Windows 8 makes no sense. I left MS because of decision like this. They are clueless and just don't get what modern consumers want and with windows 8 they are now going to alienate their business buyers, their bread and butter. Thanks to money on hand and inertia they will coast forward for a decade or more but every passing year they fail to adapt will be a year they come close to becoming and a computing afterthought like IBM now is.

My fear is that Apple is doing the same with Mt. Lion but at least they have iOS to keep them going for years to come.

Posts 521
Russ White | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 5 2012 6:53 AM

Kevin A. Purcell:
What MS needed to produce to distinguish themselves was a tablet OS that could run the Logos Bible Software apps fo the world.

The person who can figure out how to make a tablet work like a PC --the same level of productivity as I can get on a 28in monitor with a pad and keyboard-- will make a mint. The entire idea of cloud seems, to me, to be that you can solve the problem by making the small screen just a window into the larger screen. This doesn't solve the small screen model, though --it just makes you scroll around a lot. The other solution being offered is the app model, the "small application." The problem here is that it just removes options from the user sphere to make the interface fit on the screen available. Another option is to make text really really small so a lot more fits on the screen --but this doesn't work for older folks. :-) Another option is to do as much visually, but it turns out that a picture really doesn't replace a thousand words, after all...

MS is attacking the problem directly --which I think it is a good thing overall-- but they don't have any more of a clue about how to solve it than anyone else. I don't know that there even is a solution, particularly in the space of how applications interact. The genius of quasi-open software models is that one piece of software doesn't have to do everything --but the small screen model goes contrary to this idea. I'm actually afraid this actually fragments out thinking and lives.

:-)

Russ

Posts 799
JRS | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 5 2012 7:45 AM

Tablets, like netbooks, are fine if one understands and is willing to accept their limitations.  Predictably, however, we are now seeing add-on keyboards, screens, speakers, etc. for the tablets - not to mention the moaning and groaning about the limitations of the apps and/or the throughput.  If one is going to buy all of the accessories in order to try and fulfill unrealistic expectations for the tablet, why not just buy a laptop with some processing horsepower in it from the get-go?  Much of the problem lies with consumers who fail to research or understand the weaknesses but want desperately to join in the latest marketing fad.

As for Windows 8, I fear it is destined to a permanent spot on http://thereifixedit.failblog.org/.

 

How blessed is the one whom Thou dost choose, and bring near to Thee(Psa 65:4a)

Posts 12
David Meyer | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 5 2012 1:29 PM

I have been for the last 12 years a Linux user (gentoo),  Three months ago I switched back to windows.  I purchased a Samsung Series 7 slate. Two months ago I switched from the Bible Soft program to Logos. Both moves have been excellent. I have played the game of trying to get all the apps I use to work well on all my devices (I have used Vmware since 2004). Android made a lot of sense to me with my Linux background but being able to do everything I wanted on all my devices was not coming easy. When I stopped and thought about the apps that were important to me mainly MS Office and my bible study resources, Windows made the most sense. For the first time every thing works. I switched to Logos because it looked like you guys were moving forward on all fronts. That said this Samsung Slate is awesome, It runs the Logos software very nicely. Logos however has some problems with the touchscreen not scrolling properly because of its design. I have been ok with the short comings thinking you guys will be addressing the Windows 8 stuff as it comes.  I hope I have not made a mistake in thinking you would program with windows touchscreens in mind. The new windows phones are getting great reviews and I think there will be a number of people that will be looking to unify and simplify the blending of devices. The windows OS still has the largest market share for the home / work computer. I will close by saying...  to say these things about windows goes against everything I have said for years but this windows Slate is awesome. It combined with Logos is becoming an invaluable tool to me and my ministry. Thanks ...

Posts 232
Genghis | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 5 2012 3:40 PM

David Meyer:

I have been for the last 12 years a Linux user (gentoo),  Three months ago I switched back to windows.  I purchased a Samsung Series 7 slate. Two months ago I switched from the Bible Soft program to Logos. Both moves have been excellent. I have played the game of trying to get all the apps I use to work well on all my devices (I have used Vmware since 2004). Android made a lot of sense to me with my Linux background but being able to do everything I wanted on all my devices was not coming easy. When I stopped and thought about the apps that were important to me mainly MS Office and my bible study resources, Windows made the most sense. For the first time every thing works. I switched to Logos because it looked like you guys were moving forward on all fronts. That said this Samsung Slate is awesome, It runs the Logos software very nicely.

I have a number of friends who went with Apple computers and ended up doing a similar thing and switching back to Windows.

David Meyer:

The new windows phones are getting great reviews and I think there will be a number of people that will be looking to unify and simplify the blending of devices. The windows OS still has the largest market share for the home / work computer. I will close by saying...  to say these things about windows goes against everything I have said for years but this windows Slate is awesome. It combined with Logos is becoming an invaluable tool to me and my ministry. Thanks ...

I quite agree.  With the ability to synchronize information across various devices, I'm getting used to using different devices that suit the occasion:  So my phone goes with me when its inconvenient to carry a satchel;  My Tablet PC for when I want to take notes in a meeting;  and my desktop for when I'm doing some serious content creation.  With the cloud, all my PIM information is the same no matter what device I carry.

On a phone, as Russ says the screen is never going to let power users do everything they want.  That's very much a Bible 2.0 scenario.  The only content creation I see for Bible 2.0 is journalling or note taking for further enquiry later on a different platform. 

Serious study needs a bigger screen and a keyboard.

Posts 232
Genghis | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 5 2012 4:27 PM

Bob Pritchett:

Otherwise we risk being like the MS-DOS Bible software company executive who passed up a chance to acquire Logos v1.0 in 1991 because he had enough experience (from GEM, TopView, GeOS, etc.) to know that graphical windowing interfaces were a UI fad that wouldn't make it, making it unnecessary for him to invest in building or buying a Windows Bible software product.

Yeah that scenario must have been played out thousands of times all around the world in the early 90s.  In my case, I saw it in an international trade application that went the way of the dodo because the principal couldn't see that the future lay with graphical UIs.

 

Bob Pritchett:

Russ White:
I think they believe, right now, that they can do both on the same software.

Yes, we do believe that. It's not the exact same software, but rather a toolbox of components, data sources, and flexible constructs that we can deploy on multiple platforms and customize for different users and user interface paradigms. Maybe this is too ambitious, but we think it can be done, and that we're already well on the road: we use the same ebook files, the same display engine, and other shared pieces to deliver to both the desktop and the iPhone.

I prefer that its on the same software.  I don't like swimming at the deep end all the time, and I like the idea that I can have a casual dip in the same pool.

Bob Pritchett:

So will you see Logos giving a lot of attention to consumers and casual Bible students / readers? Yes. Because they outnumber you 10 (or 100?) to 1.

Whether others like it or not, its the practical reality.  I think you're on the right track.

Bob Pritchett:

Is that to the detriment of our service to you, the loyal power user? It may feel that way, because you see so much of our attention going to the consumers. But we also have more resources to give to our core power user market, and there are many more people in this market than there used to be. We have 26 times as many developers as when we built Logos 1.0. We have 8 times as many developers as when we built Libronix. If we give only 10% of our people and resources to developing desktop tools for serious study, we'll be giving more people and resources to desktop software than we ever have in our 20 year history.

These kinds of stats makes me think that Logos has long legs that can stay the course.  It means that I can invest in Logos' resources with confidence.

Posts 25
Mike Wilson | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 5 2012 4:41 PM

Russ White:

(By the way, this is why I think the next crop of great theological minds are going to come from the old folks in the engineering world --we've been taught to think, and think hard! And hence my drive to get an MDiv, then a PhD, then move into teaching in the next 10 years or so!)

Thanks Russ for those encouraging words!  I'm an engineer (ME, auto industry) who got an M.Div and have been in ministry ~12 yrs.  I'm thinkin' I should probably go for the PhD now!  I have found it true there is quite a bit of unwillingness for folk to think and think deeply these days.  Which is really unfortunate!  But I think there's a hunger for the deeper things...just have to give it in "chewable" bites.  I've done whole sermons before just on a word and only one point and people have liked them.

Best wishes on your pursuit!

Mike

Anonymous | | Replied: Mon, Mar 5 2012 5:57 PM

Bob Pritchett:

Russ, I love hearing your perspective on this. I hope you won't mind my engaging this particular debate more deeply, because I think it's really interesting and useful. (If this is too long, the Logos-specific answers are at the bottom!)

I love it when Bob posts long posts like this.  He can't help but let future directions out of the bag when he does. :-)

Bob Pritchett:

I head people saying in 1998 that nothing would ever substitute for the paper book. 'The feel, the easy interface, the smell, the weight in my hand, etc. etc. etc. These eBooks are a fad.' And in 1998 all those people were right.

I have heard the same stuff recently, around the Kindle's arrival. And this time, those people are wrong. And the funny thing is, some of the people who believe it most strongly (and wrongly) now are the people who just a decade ago were right about the exact same thing. And they didn't change; the world did.

A lot of ideas are round for a long time before some key peice comes into place falls into place to make them really practical.  Often, it's not obvious in advance what that key peice is.  While the videophiles and video engineers were debating about how much better Beta was than VHS, VHS came out with the key feature: the ability to record 120 minutes, which for the every day user trumped the whole video quality debate.  Shoot, I usually used VHS in EP mode to get 6 hours.

Going back even earlier, if you had asked horse-and-buggy users what they would like in a new transportation vehicle, I doubt any of them would have said a gasoline engine.  There were powered vehicles that failed before Ford started buiding them on an assemly line.

It's easy to laugh at the people who get it wrong, but that's because we have 20/20 hindsight.  It seldom is obvious from the ground where some singular adjustment of the the paradigm will push a concept over the tipping point from a failure to a success.

Bob Pritchett:

Yes, cloud computing is just client-server come back around. It's exactly the same thing, with only minor differences. Like the fact that client-server technologies involved heavy, bulky client terminals physically tethered by a network cable or a land-line phone line. And today's "cloud" uses ubiquitous wireless signals that talk to client devices that weigh 6 ounces, keep a charge for 24 hours, and are presently carried in the pocket or purse of nearly everyone over the age of 13 in the developed world.

Other than that, client-server and cloud are exactly the same.

And ubiquitous wireless access may be the idea that pushes the cloud computing paradigm over the tipping point.  Though I could imagine future technology that could push it back the otherway.  Imagine if you could have a computer 1000x faster with 1000x more storage that could fit in your contact lens and project a high resolution heads-up display directly on your retina.  Local computing (and the increased security from hacking that accompanies it) might make sense again.

Bob Pritchett:

Russ, the funny thing is that my instincts are just like yours. I've been deeply immersed in the computer industry for almost 30 years, and I too have enough experience to know that a lot of what gets the kids excited these days is a bad idea we've already tried. Which is why it's so important to keep an open mind and to keep re-evaluating the bigger context for fundamental changes that make bad ideas good at last. Otherwise we risk being like the MS-DOS Bible software company executive who passed up a chance to acquire Logos v1.0 in 1991 because he had enough experience (from GEM, TopView, GeOS, etc.) to know that graphical windowing interfaces were a UI fad that wouldn't make it, making it unnecessary for him to invest in building or buying a Windows Bible software product.

 

I remember using GEM.  I even did a little programming on it.  I wrote a instrument manager from my Kawai keyboard on my Atari ST.  Man, I had forgotten all about that.  That was, what, late 80's?

Bob Pritchett:

 And that was true -- all through the 90's and until recently. But now any serious mapping problem would want traffic data integrated into the solution. Any fleet manager would want dynamic re-routing based on real-time traffic incidents. Anyone researching a GIS problem wants integrated satellite imagery of any point on the earth at their fingertips. And while I could get an annually updated CD-ROM with all of America's roads, no CD-ROM could hold all the imagery of America at 3 meter resolution. No local computer could store it, or sort and aggregate the real-time reports of thousands of cars reporting back their GPS location over cellular networks for real-time traffic analysis on roads without sensors.

On the other hand, every time I go over the mountains where there is no reliable cell coverage, even from Verizon, I really miss having a local mapping app.  I think ideally, solutions need to be hybrid.  I may not be able to get 3 yard or better resolution, but I sure wish it could at least display where I am on the road.

Bob Pritchett:
 

 antonym(word1=Gloss,word2=Antonym), Gloss < Antonym, token(reference=Ref,lemma=Lemma,gloss=Gloss), token(reference=Ref,lemma=AntLemma,gloss=Antonym).

Does that meet your need for

Russ White:
...new ways to do research (even if it means more complexity) in a real desktop application.

? :-)

(But, I must confess, there's a catch... running that query (and the others this new system supports) in any reasonable time frame -- which we can do now -- requires a massive amount of data running on a server with massive amounts of memory. So while we could deliver it to your local machine, you'd need to dedicate 16 gigs of RAM to the query processing system. So our present plan is to build a rich, desktop UI for this -- no iPhone interface planned! -- but actually send the queries to a dedicated server in the cloud with massive memory and SSD hard drives. The result set will be sent back to you and delivered in a rich local UI you can manipulate on your own machine.)

While the syntax there is a bit less than intuitive, so I can't tell exactly what it's doing, it suggests you might be doing something similar to what I suggested years ago.  I've wanted to be able to use Princeton's WordNet database to be able to search for meanings rather than for words.  For those unfamiliar with WordNet, it organizes words by how they are semantically related.  You're probably familiar with synonyms and antenyms, but WordNet also does hypernyms, hyponyms, and meronyms (and maybe some others I'm not remembering off the top of my head).  So, if I want to find, say, things about the authorship of Mark, in a single search, I could find all sorts of related words to authorship without having to think of them (or look them up) myself.

Of course, I would also like to make use of natural language parsing in searching too.  No, I don't mean the semantic web stuff that tries to pull sylogism from the text and draw conclusions.  I mean to identify how words are related to each other grammatically.  Take my "authorship of Mark" search above.  There are lots of articles in my library (4000+ resources) that mention authorship and mark near each other that have nothing to do with the authorship of Mark.  But if I could search for authorship and related words that have a close grammatical relationship (I don't necessarily care which one) to the word Mark and anything closely related to it (like the phrase Gospel of Mark, or Mark's Gospel), then I probably will get a lot less false positives in my search.

Bob Pritchett:

Yes, we do believe that. It's not the exact same software, but rather a toolbox of components, data sources, and flexible constructs that we can deploy on multiple platforms and customize for different users and user interface paradigms. Maybe this is too ambitious, but we think it can be done, and that we're already well on the road: we use the same ebook files, the same display engine, and other shared pieces to deliver to both the desktop and the iPhone.

Yes, we do encounter difficulties. Our massive data type system and Bible versification data sets, for example, are literally too large to deliver to today's mobile devices. So our mobile apps have to use some shortcuts, make some assumptions, and occasionally be less precise when navigating obscure texts while offline. If you need to do "real work" on comparing ancient texts, you'll want the desktop Logos Bible Software. 

I think its a mistake to think exclusively in terms of this tool for this user and that tool for that other user.  Everyone uses multiple tools, some more than others.  As long as we're using the tool metaphor, let me run with it for a few minutes.  Resources are like building materials.  Each building material, or more accurately, each use of each building material, has its own preferred tool for working with it.  To build our final product, a Bible Study, one has to choose there materials and tools that best suits there abilities and goals.

I'm a big fan about thinking about activities as a work flow.  The search tools (and conceptually, this includes the library manager) are the front end of my workflow.  I use them to find and select my building materials.  Some of the search tools are useful for finding types of building materials, while others for finding others.  As my library has grown, however, I've found the search of the full text of the entire library to be getting less and less useful because it returns way too many false positives (see my comments about searching for authorship of Mark above).  Doing extensive searching on a small screen just isn't very useful for weeding through 100,000's of hits, the majority of which are not interesting.  A big screen on a fast computer is more useful.

The next stage of my workflow is reading and taking notes.  In the analogy, this would be like cutting my building materials down to size.  I don't need a 30" monitor for reading a book or a journal artical cover to cover.  In fact that's counterproductive as it exceeds my field of view.  I find my 8.9" HP Slate (Windows 7) works very nicely for that, even if going from "page" to "page" takes 2 or 3 seconds.  I'm really looking forward to getting a Samsung Note when it comes to Verizon so I can try using the mobile app for this stage.  I seldom use the clippings and notes features.  Clippings because I can't reorganize them, notes because they used to be so slow, but I've noticed they have sped up a lot lately, so I may try using them more.  Mostly I use OneNote.  And I handwrite my notes with the stylus.  Yes, I could type text faster with a laptop, but the HP Slate is just too conveniently small and handwriting is much faster than virtual keyboards.  Plus, there's more to note taking than writing text.  With handwriting and OneNote, I can use positioning and color and ink weight and quickly drawn arrows and highlights and such to encode more information than just typewritten words allow.

The final stage of my workflow is typically at an actual keyboard using Word to write up the final study, and probably having a second monitor plugged in so I can have word and Logos and OneNote all up on the screen at once.  So to sum up my point, I move from using a laptop to do the initial searching, to a tablet for reading and notetaking (and in the future, maybe the tablet for notetaking and a phone for reading), and back to a notebook again.  Having the same resources, but different tools on different platforms to use those resources, is powerful and useful for a single user.  It isn't a matter of some users being phone users, some being tablets, some being laptop, and some being desktop users.

Bob Pritchett:

Is that to the detriment of our service to you, the loyal power user? It may feel that way, because you see so much of our attention going to the consumers. But we also have more resources to give to our core power user market, and there are many more people in this market than there used to be. We have 26 times as many developers as when we built Logos 1.0. We have 8 times as many developers as when we built Libronix. If we give only 10% of our people and resources to developing desktop tools for serious study, we'll be giving more people and resources to desktop software than we ever have in our 20 year history.

I don't think it feels that way because the so-called "consumer" features are things important to part of my workflow.

 

Posts 1206
Ward Walker | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 5 2012 6:23 PM

This thread has certainly radically increased it's "interestingness" quotient...

Posts 236
Michael March | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 5 2012 7:53 PM

Very interesting indeed.  Thanks to all.  The only thing I will add is that as has been mentioned above, I like the cloud but also want local storage.  Sometimes the cloud is not available for any number of reasons.  In Bob's example of the updated mapping giving an advantage while driving because the road changes are so huge that only the cloud can keep up, I heartily agree.  Google is updating it's maps constantly and they are the most updated that I can find.  Which is all great until your phone decides to have data drops, and then you're completely quite literally lost, until your cloud services decide to start working again, for that you will need a physical map or a physical chip with a map in it (which recently happened to me!).  

I love the cloud, and enjoy the syncing and also the tablet usage with Logos, but I am very glad all my resources reside on the two hard drives of my computers at home and at Church (cloud synced, of course).  I like the ease of keeping up, but I want the security of local storage.  Only then am I not dependent on the cloud to be working for me to be working.  

Windows PC - Android Phone - Surface Pro 4

Posts 521
Russ White | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 6 2012 3:31 AM

Michael March:
Which is all great until your phone decides to have data drops, and then you're completely quite literally lost, until your cloud services decide to start working again, for that you will need a physical map or a physical chip with a map in it (which recently happened to me!).

Or until you start paying what the network really costs in one way or another... Just another factor to keep in the back of your mind when thinking about local storage and processing. One of the problems with "cloud" is it means so many different things (SaaS, IaaS, PaaS, etc.), so both local synchronization with remote storage (like what Logos does today), and completely remote storage and processing (like Salesforce.com) are both considered "cloud." What Logos is doing right now on the PC is local/remote synchronization with local processing. On iPads and the like, it's remote storage with local processing. So far, you can "meter" your use of the network by shutting it down or bringing it up (download some books, configure the iPad for airplane mode).

To return to the map example --I know a couple of folks who have specifically gone back to local maps on the cell phones (with all that entails) because they hit a couple of months of $500+ cell phone bills. I personally have had $500+ (one month!) cell phone bills because of text messages (!) while in an overseas local (it doesn't take video to rack up bandwidth). The point is the network ain't cheap when you really start paying for it as an independent item at full cost.

I'm all for synchronization --so long as I can control what's synchronized and how often. When we get to the point where all my applications force me to use the network all the time, things get a little stickier. :-)

Posts 3700
BillS | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 6 2012 1:45 PM

Kevin A. Purcell:
What MS needed to produce to distinguish themselves was a tablet OS that could run the Logos Bible Software apps fo the world.

True...

So Kevin I agree with you that MS's tablet-only version of MS8 is probably headed for the also-ran heap...

But they also released a W7 replacement version with ALL the tablet features & front end that is ALREADY in beta running Logos 4? (Seems like I remember at least one post -- in this thread? --  from someone who's doing that.) Why do you feel that this version makes no sense, if the corporate buyers can flip a switch & continue pretty much as-is? Can't they really be all things to all people? ;-)

Grace & Peace,
Bill


MSI GF63 8RD, I-7 8850H, 32GB RAM, 1TB SSD, 2TB HDD, NVIDIA GTX 1050Max
Samsung S9+, 64GB
Fire 10HD 64GB 7th Gen

Posts 2763
Kevin A. Purcell | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Mar 7 2012 7:53 AM

Windows 7 tablet version was not touch friendly. You had to use a stylus. For windows to really grab the mojo from Apple, they have to do something really bold. Another tablet software that runs little apps from an MS app store ain't it. If they did what they did with win8 but had the ability to run apps like Logos, then they'd have something awesome and could draw people like me back.

Posts 3700
BillS | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Mar 7 2012 9:59 AM

Kevin A. Purcell:

 If they did what they did with win8 but had the ability to run apps like Logos, then they'd have something awesome and could draw people like me back.

Did you see the post from a user that is now running W8 beta (laptop version) WITH L4? What am I missing? Is this not the full tablet version that runs L4 that you're looking for? Takes advantage of full small available small-form processing power rather than a skinny one like ARM?

Again, what am I missing?

EDIT: Here's the thread: http://community.logos.com/forums/p/38163/340274.aspx#340274 

Kevin, you're right... no gestures or touch as yet in W8. Until there is, you're on target where this release is headed...

Grace & Peace,
Bill


MSI GF63 8RD, I-7 8850H, 32GB RAM, 1TB SSD, 2TB HDD, NVIDIA GTX 1050Max
Samsung S9+, 64GB
Fire 10HD 64GB 7th Gen

Anonymous | | Replied: Wed, Mar 7 2012 1:08 PM

That's a common misconception.  First, there is no "tablet version" of Win7 like there was with XP.  All the tablet features are built into the base OS.  Second, I use Win7 on an HP Slate daily.  I use the stylus for handwritten notes, not navigating windows.  Win7 is actually fairly touch friendly.  I'm not saying it's perfect, and there is the odd program, Logos4 being the chief among them, that somehow manage to not be compatible with touch, but by and large, touch is a fiarly pleasant experience on Win7.

Posts 3700
BillS | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Mar 7 2012 1:15 PM

J. Jackson:
That's a common misconception. 

Thanks for weighing in... :-)

Grace & Peace,
Bill


MSI GF63 8RD, I-7 8850H, 32GB RAM, 1TB SSD, 2TB HDD, NVIDIA GTX 1050Max
Samsung S9+, 64GB
Fire 10HD 64GB 7th Gen

Posts 232
Genghis | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Mar 7 2012 1:51 PM

 

J. Jackson:

I use the stylus for handwritten notes, not navigating windows.  Win7 is actually fairly touch friendly.  I'm not saying it's perfect, and there is the odd program, Logos4 being the chief among them, that somehow manage to not be compatible with touch, but by and large, touch is a fiarly pleasant experience on Win7.

I've been using L4 daily on my Thinkpad tablet pc. 

It has a screen that supports both touch and stylus input.  I use the stylus for navigating Windows and for text input.  So far I haven't found any obvious incompatibilities between L4 and Windows.  Admittedly I'm using WinXP Tablet Edition.  Perhaps something is broken in later versions?

There's a setting in Logos that expands various screen elements of the program so its easier to hit them accurately.

Posts 1206
Ward Walker | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Mar 7 2012 6:40 PM

Kevin A. Purcell:

Windows 7 tablet version was not touch friendly. You had to use a stylus. For windows to really grab the mojo from Apple, they have to do something really bold. Another tablet software that runs little apps from an MS app store ain't it. If they did what they did with win8 but had the ability to run apps like Logos, then they'd have something awesome and could draw people like me back.

Perhaps matters of opinion.  A stylus can help--selecting text or trying to do a pen flick with a finger in Logos isn't advisable when the stylus makes that happen so much faster and more precisely.  In Win8 Dev, I have noticed that I can now use my finger to write in the handwriting pane and get OK results--in Win7, you pretty much had to use a stylus to get precise enough in the handwriting pane.

 

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