Windows 8 & Logos- Logo's Team thoughts?

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Posts 521
Russ White | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 10 2012 11:19 AM

http://hothardware.com/Reviews/Windows-8-Metro-vs-Desktop-Conflicts-and-Disconnects/?page=1

This seems to be the key point to me:

"The layout that works extremely well when working with a small number of tasks but falls apart completely when dealing with large numbers of programs and icons."

A very simplified interface works well for viewing content, but not for creating new content. While 90% of the computers in the world are bound to be used 90% of the time for simply viewing what other people have created along with really minor input, the other 10% of the time you really need a serious content creation environment. IMHO, this just explains the problem we face in the interface wars, and always have --content creation and content consumption are two completely different things, and need to be treated completely different in terms of interface design. A single interface that really does both well will actually be two interfaces the user switches between.

Which is why reading and taking notes will always need a different interface than research and building papers/books.

:-)

Russ

Posts 25
Greg Walker | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Apr 1 2012 8:50 PM

Funny.  I was blissfully ignorant at how poorly Windows 7 worked with touch when I bought my Asus Slate a year ago.  I'm really glad I didn't see this thread while I was using Logos to finish my graduate degree in theology using that Slate, particularly since I didn't realize it would only run little apps, and not MS Office 2010 Professional while writing my research papers, or running Visio and Project for work. 

I'm also glad I didn't know when I switched from Windows 7 to Windows 8 Developer preview back in October that I was turning my tablet that had replaced my laptop into nothing more than an oversized smartphone, like an iPad.  Dumb thing kept running Logos even on W8.  Glad I didn't know better.  Now that I've upgraded to W8 Consumer Preview, I'd better uninstall all those full Windows programs, since I'm obviously delirious and set it back so it's only running apps.  Or, I could swap it for the new version of the iPad, which can run full Logos, along with full MS Office programs.  Oh, wait... no it can't. 

I know, I'll go back to using a laptop, because it's much more convenient to carry the extra weight, and most people don't mind hearing the keyboard click while I'm taking notes in church, instead of using the pen like I do now. 

I just wish I hadn't bought this little tablet and installed the little tablet software that runs little apps from the MS app store.

Hey, wait a minute, Kevin!  You said "If the did what they did with win8 but had the ability to run apps like Logos, then they'd have something awesome and could draw people like me back.".   Guess what?  They did!  I'm typing on it right now!

OK, my sarcasm switch is off, but I've heard too many Apple fanboys dissing on MS anything because they're so in love with their Apple devices.  Steve Jobs did an excellent job building awesome user interfaces and stable platforms that stretched the bounds of computing.  Unfortunately for him, he couldn't break the stranglehold on the business world that MS held, so I stuck with the MS platforms (including Windows Mobile 5.x through 6.5 for my phones) for my personal use, since I was going to use a MS platform all day at work.  I was ready to dump my last Windows phone for an iPhone due to the quirkiness of WP, when Windows phone 7.0 came out.  I bought one of the first, and have to tell you that MS nailed it.  Sure it was an early release, and there were things missing, but W7.5 fixed that, and for objective reviewers Windows Phone is beating iPhone 4 and Android regularly. 

I was also ready to switch to a MacBook to replace my work laptop for personal use, when I stumbled upon this Slate and Windows 7.  Wow!  I forgot about the blue screen of death, and all the other issues with Windows XP (never did the Vista thing).  Biggest downer was the fact that W7 screen layouts and controls are not touch friendly.  It works, it's just that you have to have a rather precise aim with your fat little finger to hit the red X in the upper right corner to close a program.  Logos is also not touch friendly, as it's a real bear to scroll in the windows using the scroll bar, but I've learned to adapt (primarily using the arrow and page keys on the keyboard).  Windows 8 is taking my Slate to a whole new level.  I have a computer that's as powerful as my Dell laptop that my employer provides, but way more portable, with a user interface that's waaaayyyy more functional, whether I'm using the Bluetooth keyboard to write a research paper, or the stylus to take notes in OneNote (which by the way, synchs with my phone via SkyDrive). 

For those of you who haven't demo'ed Windows 8 yet, you should, and you should do it with someone who's actually used it and is familiar with it's capabilities.  Is it different?  Of course!  It doesn't have a start button.  Get over it, you don't need it anymore.  It works fine in a desktop environment, although I can tell you in my office, more and more folks are using their desktop environment less and less every day. 

NOW, IF ANYONE IS STILL READING:  I came to this thread to see what Logos was planning to do with Logos 4.x to make it more user friendly for Windows 8, and for the touch environment.  I posted many months ago about how the sliders for the scroll bars were difficult to use, that swiping and other touch gestures were desperately needed.  You (Logos developers) should have your copy of Windows 8 by now...  Please give us an idea when we're going to see some innovations in Logos that make it ready for the future.

 

Posts 521
Russ White | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Apr 2 2012 4:19 AM

Greg Walker:
OK, my sarcasm switch is off, but I've heard too many Apple fanboys dissing on MS anything because they're so in love with their Apple devices.

So --I'm not an "Apple fan boy," and haven't ever been one. But I am someone who spends a lot of time doing serious work that requires having multiple applications open at one time --I don't ever consider one application an island unto itself. I use CorelDRAW, OneNote, and Word together; I use OneNote, CorelDRAW, and Powerpoint together, I use OneNote and Logos as if they were one application.

I also happen to have spent a good bit of time studying interface design. And I've actually spent time with some of the folks at MS talking to them about the UI design --at the VP level.

So the Windows 8 interface might be perfect for some things, as I said before. But it's not perfect for those of us who do heavy content creation, as I said. If you treat each application as an island, something that is self contained, and never interact with more than one other app at a time, then it's fine. But, if like me, you don't put your notes in Logos, and you don't do your graphics in Powerpoint, and you go beyond using the built-in clip art, then it's painful to use.

In other words, if you don't find multiple monitors useful --if you can live on a single 13in monitor having only one application open at a time for all your work-- then you'll be happy with Windows 8. Those of us who use 26+in monitors, or use multiple monitors, will find all that real estate wasted, and we'll find ourselves being forced to full screen switch between multiple applications. Goodbye drag and drop between applications, goodbye being able to see the context of the quote you're pulling from one app to another, goodbye being able to keep one eye on that background job while doing something else, goodbye being able to see the outline of an argument while working on the paragraphs, goodbye being able to see your notes while building a presentation.

That is, of course, unless you're using the Windows 7 interface on Windows 8. In which case you've already admitted that the Windows 8 interface isn't useful for what you do. I'll bet you are using the Windows 7 multiwindow interface for most of your work on that laptop, rather than using the "full screen for every app" Windows 8 interface.

So you can can your sarcasm. There are no "apple fanboys" here, no matter how much you'd like to make us all into a straw man you can knock around easily.

Russ

Posts 25
Greg Walker | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Apr 2 2012 8:37 AM

I apologize for not making myself more clear; when I clicked "reply" on Kevin's thread on page 2, I mistakenly assumed that it was quoting the message.


I'm not sure what made you think my post was an attack on you, or that I was setting up any strawmen.  In fact, my post was intended to address the multiple comments on this thread that blasted all things Windows 8, by trying to explain (as have several other users) that Windows 8 works, and that Windows can work in a tablet environment, and do some of the very things that other posters here have condemned MS for either not doing, or ignoring. 

My feeble attempt at sarcasm obviously masked my primary purpose for writing. 

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Apr 2 2012 9:11 AM

Greg Walker:
although it certainly seems to me that Kevin has clearly aligned himself with all things Apple and dissed all things MS. 
 Do I have to embrace all things Apple before I can "diss" all things Microsoft?  Devil   I actually like Windows XP and Windows 7 Ultimate the rest = rubbish! 
Greg Walker:
I've never tried to use 26+ inch, or multiple monitors.
In the libronix 3 days I used multiple (read 3) Gateway 36" monitors. They generated enough heat to keep my room very warm. Now I can connect my laptop to a 73" flatscreen in my living room. Big Smile  Oh,
life is good! 
Greg Walker:
I'm not sure what made you think my post was an attack on you, or that I was setting up any strawmen.
  Ok. You made some good points Greg. Now how 'bout we all put away the Red Bull and get out the Nestle Quick Strawberry and enjoy a Peace party. Wink

                    

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Greg Walker:

NOW, IF ANYONE IS STILL READING:  I came to this thread to see what Logos was planning to do with Logos 4.x to make it more user friendly for Windows 8, and for the touch environment.  I posted many months ago about how the sliders for the scroll bars were difficult to use, that swiping and other touch gestures were desperately needed.  You (Logos developers) should have your copy of Windows 8 by now...  Please give us an idea when we're going to see some innovations in Logos that make it ready for the future.

Logos 4.x is currently using the .NET Framework v3.5, which doesn't provide built-in touch support. We plan to migrate to .NET 4 (at which point adding touch support should be fairly easy), but there are some significant text rendering problems that are currently delaying that move. (It's also possible we could write our own low-level touch integration for .NET 3.5, but that may be a lot of work that becomes completely unnecessary later.)

That is to say: we're aware of the problems, we want to address them, but we don't have an estimated date for when this will be done.

Posts 232
Genghis | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Apr 2 2012 1:29 PM

Bradley Grainger (Logos):

Logos 4.x is currently using the .NET Framework v3.5, which doesn't provide built-in touch support. We plan to migrate to .NET 4 (at which point adding touch support should be fairly easy), but there are some significant text rendering problems that are currently delaying that move. (It's also possible we could write our own low-level touch integration for .NET 3.5, but that may be a lot of work that becomes completely unnecessary later.)

Aargh! Don't do it.  I am aware of a software company (not mine!) who had a similar choice in the DOS days and instead of adopting windows, wrote their own Windows-like but character-based UI complete with draggable windows and scroll bars.  They went the way of the Dodo.

Posts 2041
Mark | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Apr 2 2012 1:31 PM

I hesitate to add anything to this thread because I know I am way over my head, but I wish someone could respond to why my simple wish is not what everyone wants:

I wish I could have my own cloud in my house...with only my content on it, and I can travel the world with a tablet and access my cloud, my material, in my possession, not material stored on someone else's servers.

The reason for this is that it is a known fact that cloud companies do disappear, and the content that people had on a company that goes bankrupt can disappear overnight.  As well, why have another monthly bill to put the huge amount of content on someone else' cloud based server which claims to be secure (a claim no company can really make today).

Companies offer respond by saying people do not want this.  I realize that might be true, but find it difficult to believe.  I more believe that there is more money in forcing the cloud to be outside the home.  And that is today's trend.

I have hope that in 5 years or so, eventually enough people will make it possible to use tablets connected to a cloud server based in one's home.

But if someone can correct this simple minded thinking, I really am listening.  I just cant see why people would not welcome a solution of a cloud in their own home that they can access anywhere.

Posts 232
Genghis | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Apr 2 2012 1:40 PM

Mark:

I wish I could have my own cloud in my house...with only my content on it, and I can travel the world with a tablet and access my cloud, my material, in my possession, not material stored on someone else's servers.

The reason for this is that it is a known fact that cloud companies do disappear, and the content that people had on a company that goes bankrupt can disappear overnight.

If you have a broadband connection you can set up your own personal web server on your desktop, then you can access your files from anywhere across the web.  The only caveats involve security (you don't want someone else accessing your files).  Google IIS and Apache Server to see how to set it up.  Both do the job really well.  Might take you a couple of evenings to get up to speed with the jargon (I'm only an intermediate level word processing kind of guy) but its do-able.  I set one up for so that I could install apps for my Apple Newton in my office.  But I can access other files via other devices anywhere. 

HTH

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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Apr 2 2012 1:50 PM

Mark:

I wish I could have my own cloud in my house...with only my content on it, and I can travel the world with a tablet and access my cloud, my material, in my possession, not material stored on someone else's servers.

The reason for this is that it is a known fact that cloud companies do disappear, and the content that people had on a company that goes bankrupt can disappear overnight. 

Who is to say that your ISP won't go out of business tomorrow too? Who is to say your house won't be broken into while you are gone, taking your "cloud" to someone else's house? Which "cloud" are you worried about? Are you worried about Logos going out of business?

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Mike W | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Apr 2 2012 2:29 PM

Mark:
I just cant see why people would not welcome a solution of a cloud in their own home that they can access anywhere.

 

You mean something like a home server?  You can do this with Windows Home Server or, if you prefer a Mac, Lion server.  WHS allows you to screen share with a home computer running windows professional or above (home versions of windows doesn't support RDP).  Lion Server allows screen sharing with a mac at home. both allow you to set up file sharing over the internet.  Since most home internet connections don't provide a static IP address you'd probably need to set up an account with a dynamic DNS provider.  This "Home Cloud" has been possible for over a dozen years. (I set up something like this using VNC and an apache webdav server to access my home computers from work in the late 90s, My ISP didn't provide a static IP but never changed the one assigned unless I rebooted their router).   There are free web apps for Photo sharing, Wiki's, Message Boards, or pretty much anything else you'd want to do with your own content remotely.   WHS seems like the easiest way to set this up but it is not doing well in the marketplace.

Posts 521
Russ White | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Apr 2 2012 2:36 PM

Mark:
I wish I could have my own cloud in my house...with only my content on it, and I can travel the world with a tablet and access my cloud, my material, in my possession, not material stored on someone else's servers.

You can --take a look at the various synology network attached storage devices, for instance. The problem you're facing it three fold, however:

1. Cloud isn't just about data, it's also about applications. The ultimate goal of cloud is to have no --zilch, none-- applications on your computer other than a web browser (aka the operating system). The dream of cloud is that you have very lightweight devices --like phones-- that can do complicated things because the computation takes place someplace else.

2. Part of the way all of this is going to be paid for is by mining the data you store and the processing you do on a server someone else owns --ala Facebook and Google. A lot of folks don't like to admit this piece of the puzzle has to be there, but it has to be at some level to make this whole thing work. If you can't pay for the compute power locally, you can't pay for it remotely --even if you time share it out among various people. The cost of the network far overcomes the cost of shared compute power in very real terms. There's little encouragement to store things in a "personal cloud" because, after all, then the data can't be mined.

(Logos isn't mining our data today, they are just riding the wave of a cheap network and remote storage/compute supported by these factors.)

3. Because most people don't understand the tradeoff between privacy and convenience, there is a massive drive to "have my data any time, any place, without my having to do any work along the way." Most people will "sell" telling everyone in the world what they had for dinner for a small spike in "likes," without realizing that their privacy loss is very real over long periods of time. It's the jar of pennies problem --taking a single penny out of a jar of a thousand pennies doesn't make you feel like you  have any less money, and you can laugh at someone who says you're losing your wealth by removing the pennies. When you get to the bottom of the jar, when you can visibly see your wealth going away, it's too late to do anything about it. The jar is practically empty before you start to feel the impact of your actions.

Because bandwidth is so very cheap today --a byproduct of various congruent things all happening at the same time-- , and because there is so much new personal information which companies can take and make money off of, remote storage and compute power is a realistic alternative in terms of pricing. We'll have to see how this turns out in the long run, but there will probably be a point where the costs of networks rebounds (most of the large providers are running at a loss right at this moment, making up for network costs with other services, much like first class mail), and the amount of personal information being gathered just can't continue to offset the cost of the network, then the model will fall likely apart. At that point, the cloud folks hope to have the model so solidified that you'll gladly pay to be liked online --that you'll pay them for the "likes," not only in terms of privacy, but in terms of real money.

At least that's one network engineer's perspective on where things are today.

(And by the way, before anyone jumps in here and says I'm scaring people away, etc., I'm just giving an honest appraisal of someone who's been in the networking industry for 15+ years, and computers for 20+ years. I'm certain Logos can adapt to local storage, so this isn't a discussion about the future of Logos itself, just a theoretical discussion about the state and future of "cloud computing.")

Now if you want to set up your own personal cloud using something like the synology solution, you can --but you're going to pay for the network (either in speed of access or in actual cost of buying larger links), and you're going to pay in terms of synchronization (Google doesn't let folks sync to an android phone off their "personal cloud" --see #2 above), and you're going to pay in terms of having local apps that can read the remote data (which most companies don't want to supply, see #2 above). Because of the complete lack of any concern over the long term effects of the cloud on the way we live our lives (see #3 above), you're fighting a very real uphill battle.

:-)

Russ

Posts 2041
Mark | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Apr 2 2012 3:25 PM

I appreciate the responses, but it seems that only Russ understands my question, and I have appreciated his response.

But now I want to take it the next step.  I realize that applications are needed to mine my data.  But that is what I dont understand.  Right now in the Windows 7 environment, i still have the applications I need to mine my data.  I have MS Office.  I have Logos 4.  I have a few applications I use in Win 7 to mine my own data.

So what I dont understand is why the world is not going in the direction of allowing such applications I have just mentioned, traditional PC computing applicatioins to be stored on one's own private server so that a pc computing experience cannot continue on a tablet without having to pay for services such as google docs etc.

I maintain that I suspect someone will see money in making some kind of android applications available to people like myself who wish to have a private server, or company server that is not hosted by google or facebook or some other company out in the world somewhere that will allow me to access my data on my server.

And another question:  TODAY, is it possible on an ipad or Asus eee Pad Transformer Prime TF700 to access a word file from a home pc or from a home server?


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Mark | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Apr 2 2012 3:34 PM

alabama24:
Who is to say that your ISP won't go out of business tomorrow too? Who is to say your house won't be broken into while you are gone, taking your "cloud" to someone else's house? Which "cloud" are you worried about? Are you worried about Logos going out of business?

If my ISP goes out of business, I lose nothing.  I just switch ISPs.  They do not own my data.  I own it.  I lose nothing.  Of course a house can be broken into, but that is a straw argument.  Are you suggesting that google and facebook etc are more trustworthy, safer?  If it is in my house, I am responsible.  If it is lost, damaged etc, it is my fault. If I make no back up etc, who can I blame but myself?   I would rather that happen then put it in the cloud in someone else' trust.

I totally accept that many prefer to trust the cloud and that is great.  I have no issue with that.  And I am glad you seem to have found that to be a wiser way to go.  I have no issue with it.  I am not sure why someone might have an issue with someone wanting their data on their own cloud server or on their own church server or business server that is not tied to a 3rd party company.

No I am not worried about Logos going out of business.  But I am worried about not being able to access the logos cloud as a missionary in certain areas of the world.

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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Apr 2 2012 3:49 PM

Mark:
Are you suggesting that google and facebook etc are more trustworthy, safer?

Who said anything about "Google and Facebook"? To answer the question, I trust both to be more reliable than your home computer. I do not trust Facebook over privacy issues. 

Mark:
No I am not worried about Logos going out of business.  But I am worried about not being able to access the logos cloud as a missionary in certain areas of the world.

Are you a missionary? If so, where would this "home cloud" be that would be so reliable? 

Mark:
I am not sure why someone might have an issue with someone wanting their data on their own cloud server or on their own church server or business server that is not tied to a 3rd party company.

Mark:
Of course a house can be broken into, but that is a straw argument.

It's not a straw argument. You are not ever going to have a more reliable home server than google. 

I am not against you having your own cloud server… but who makes apps to utilize a home server? Furthermore, why should Logos invest any time or thought into this when it would service a very small percentage of users?

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Posts 521
Russ White | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Apr 2 2012 4:19 PM

alabama24:

Mark:
Of course a house can be broken into, but that is a straw argument.

It's not a straw argument. You are not ever going to have a more reliable home server than google.

Maybe, maybe not. But you're trying to make reliability the primary argument for using the cloud. There must be a understood decision to trade off owning your data verses the convenience of putting your word processing documents in "the cloud," so you can word process on your cell phone from anyplace in the world.

All things are tradeoffs whether or not we want to believe it. There are no free lunches, anyplace, anytime. If the service is free, you are the product.

alabama24:
I am not against you having your own cloud server… but who makes apps to utilize a home server? Furthermore, why should Logos invest any time or thought into this when it would service a very small percentage of users?

This is -but why is this such a minority of users? Because we're all perfectly willing to trade off "pennies of privacy" for convenience. When the penny jar is almost empty, and we realize what we've done, will we be able to go back? It's not a silly question, it's a serious one, worth thinking about when you do that next Google search, or make that next post on Facebook.

In the larger sense, Logos doesn't fit into the same category --again, they are simply riding the wave that's high right now because of social sites like Facebook and Google. And I fully believe they can still adapt when things change. There might be a point where all software is so embedded in "the cloud" that you simply can't work without it, and Logos might eventually be trapped in that situation along with everyone else, but I don't think that's their intent.

Russ

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Mark | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Apr 2 2012 4:20 PM

alabama24:
I am not against you having your own cloud server… but who makes apps to utilize a home server?

I guess you might be coming close to understanding my question. Thanks for taking time to add your input.  But I think Russ has hit the issue on the nail. And I appreciate Bob investing time and thought in this thread.

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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Apr 2 2012 4:52 PM

Russ White:
But you're trying to make reliability the primary argument for using the cloud.

I am trying to make it THE primary augment because it IS. The point of the cloud is to access data from anywhere, on any device. If that isn't the reason, then what is the point? If you are concerned about privacy, don't put ANYTHING on "the cloud," whether on Google, Logos, or at home. Even with a "home cloud," you still use the internet which provides opportunities for your data to be stolen. The only real way to be safe/private on the internet is to not use the internet.

I understand privacy concerns, up to a point. I just spent 2 hours deleting ALL of my wall posts on Facebook because I don't trust them. Everytime I turn around, they are giving new people access to my information. It is also scary when a russian app company makes an app to interface with Facebook, seemingly for the purpose to stalk women. [It shows the profile of any woman who has set their privacy to "public," who has checked in nearby, providing stockers the ability to track them down. It was pulled from the app store, by the way, when its purpose was discovered].

But back to Logos… what is the "privacy" concern? What does it matter if my copy of the ESV is on the Logos servers or on mine? What does it matter if my highlights are on their servers or mine? What does it matter if my sermon notes are on their servers or mine? I can't think of ANY privacy concerns, except with the issue of prayer requests, which to be honest, isn't a strong feature of the software anyway.

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Russ White | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Apr 2 2012 5:11 PM

alabama24:
I am trying to make it THE primary augment because it IS. The point of the cloud is to access data from anywhere, on any device.

I think I'm confused --you seem to be arguing that reliability is the argument, and then you say the convenience is the argument.

alabama24:
The only real way to be safe/private on the internet is to not use the internet.

You're mixing apples and oranges. Driving my car across a road isn't quite the same thing as storing it in someone else' garage. Even if I park my car in someone else' garage I have the key, and the world recognizes it's my private property through title, registration, etc. With data, who really owns it? When something can be reused infinitely, and you can't know when it's been stolen or used without your permission, stealing data becomes a "victimless crime."

The problem is there are no victimless crimes.

Now, as far as privacy on the Internet --of course all your data can be intercepted. Most of it probably is, in fact. But there's a solution to that problem. It's called encryption. The reality is that you, as a user, can do something about your data being intercepted when it's going across the 'net at large, and there's little an ISP can do about it. Spare me the discussion of how all crypto has back doors, it can all be broken, etc. Sure it can. I can break the md5 key used in OSPF, EIGRP, IS-IS, or BGP in a matter of hours/days with enough compute power. But note that it's hours/days, not minutes, nor seconds. The point of encryption isn't to make something so you can't ever get to it, the point is to make it take so long, and cost so much effort, that it's just not worth doing --that the value of the information is less than the cost of obtaining it. This is the theory behind door locks, home security systems, etc., as well.

alabama24:
I understand privacy concerns, up to a point. I just spent 2 hours deleting ALL of my wall posts on Facebook because I don't trust them.

Which accomplishes precisely nothing.

alabama24:
But back to Logos… what is the "privacy" concern?

Now you're breaching a completely different topic, one that I've addressed in a number of other posts. I don't want to rehash the entire argument here, but I will say that I don't store my notes in Logos, I store them in OneNote. I have a lot of reasons for this --privacy, because OneNote helps me organize my thinking better, because I think it's wrong to expect the notes in Logos to ever support what a "real" standalone note application can support. I prefer applications that do a few things well over applications that do a lot of things just okay (in fact, you could argue that this simple idea is the entire reason behind the entire personal computer revolution, and that cloud is taking us in the opposite direction in many senses, with all that entails).

This final reason is, in fact, why I use Logos and OneNote and Logos "as a unit," and why having both applications open at the same time, on a single screen, is so very important to me --and why I don't think something like an iPad, or even a laptop with a 13in screen, can ever replace the speed and efficiency I get through a large screen with multiple apps residing side by side. I learned long ago that a few minutes a day saved by organizing my tools for greater efficiency is far and away worth the effort.

Just to try and draw the discussion back to the point of this entire thread --Windows 8, and the single application metaphor built into the native Win8 interface.

Russ

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Ward Walker | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Apr 2 2012 5:15 PM

Bradley Grainger (Logos):

Greg Walker:

NOW, IF ANYONE IS STILL READING:  I came to this thread to see what Logos was planning to do with Logos 4.x to make it more user friendly for Windows 8, and for the touch environment.  I posted many months ago about how the sliders for the scroll bars were difficult to use, that swiping and other touch gestures were desperately needed.  You (Logos developers) should have your copy of Windows 8 by now...  Please give us an idea when we're going to see some innovations in Logos that make it ready for the future.

Logos 4.x is currently using the .NET Framework v3.5, which doesn't provide built-in touch support. We plan to migrate to .NET 4 (at which point adding touch support should be fairly easy), but there are some significant text rendering problems that are currently delaying that move. (It's also possible we could write our own low-level touch integration for .NET 3.5, but that may be a lot of work that becomes completely unnecessary later.)

That is to say: we're aware of the problems, we want to address them, but we don't have an estimated date for when this will be done.

Bradley, thank you very much for that explanation--as a frequent advocate for touch/pen savvy L4Win HMI, it helps to understand the challenges you must overcome to provide what I've been advocating for.  I'm hoping that perhaps you find a 3d party library that helps bridge the gap until the future code base.

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