Windows 8 & Logos- Logo's Team thoughts?

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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Apr 2 2012 5:35 PM

Russ White:
I think I'm confused --you seem to be arguing that reliability is the argument, and then you say the convenience is the argument.

I thought I was pretty clear, but I guess not. Convenience of having the data at your fingertips is the main issue. It is why people use the cloud. Reliability is the reason I use someone else's cloud, and not a rickety box in my broom closet. After all, it's not very convenient to use a service which is unreliable. 

Russ White:
I don't store my notes in Logos, I store them in OneNote

Notes are a funny thing. The way you seem to be using notes is very different than what Logos is currently capable of doing. I would like to see improvements in this area, but that is another topic of discussion. Personally I see great value in what Logos currently offers… the ability to attach small notes to the text I am reading. 

Russ White:
Just to try and draw the discussion back to the point of this entire thread

It has gotten derailed a bit… back to the Mac forums I will go. Smile

macOS, iOS & iPadOS | Logs |  Install

Posts 21
Vincent Xavier Shaw | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 8 2012 12:55 AM

You've made some great points of the usability of Windows 8.  It's amazing, making me really enjoy my HP TM2 again.  Being a convertible laptop, it's got the best of both worlds with touch screen and keyboard, yet transforms into a tablet with a twist of the screen.

Right now I'm installing Logos on the Windows 8 Release Preview.  I hope to see how compatible it is.  I'm planning on making this aging tablet last longer by using upgrading to an SSD to boost Logos.  It's a drag.  Talking about dragging, it'd be nice to know more why the touch weakness of .NET 3.5.  Going towards .NET 4 sounds good, but how long till then?

Multi-tasking is very-doable.  It is nice to have a tablet, turn into a laptop, turn into a desktop with 2 1080p displays.  I'm a heavy content creator, multi-tasking with dozens of programs, including movie editing, raw photo editing, service bulletin producing, OneNote, etc., etc., all while Logos is working.

Logos would work much better if it could do the basic things every other program I own seems to do:  respond to "flicks", scrollable like IE and so on.  I'd just like a basic page down response.  But it doesn't work.

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Russ White | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 8 2012 4:52 AM

Vincent Xavier Shaw:
Multi-tasking is very-doable.

Are you multitasking with the single app at a time interface? Or with the older traditional interface? Would you consider multitasking as effective on tablet display as effective as multitasking on the full sized monitor? How effective/useful is a 26in monitor when you're in the "single app full screen at a time," mode?

My point was (and still is) that the multitasking required for solid content creation requires a large screen (or many screens) so you can see multiple things at one time. Tablets are moving us towards "one app at a time," which is good for consumption, bad for creation (or forces all creative activity to be "within one app," which is outside the entire model of the modern computer). What I imagine will happen is people will end up with multiple devices connected to multiple displays to get around the single app mode --for a model of this, see the recent announcement by MS tying the XBox to windows phones and windows tablets through the local wireless network, so each device can display different parts of the same app, or different apps, and share data between them. How effective it will be to have multiple smaller computers in this way remains to be seen.

As for cloud... I noted this last week that cloud is on the decline in the IT world, based on several indicators. Within a couple or three years, "cloud" will be another defunct marketing term that swung too hard in one direction. People are discovering that networks cost money, and simply can't reach every corner of the world all the time. Likely we'll all swing too hard in the opposite direction before it's over with, but that's the nature of the IT industry.



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Mark | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 8 2012 7:43 AM

Russ White:
As for cloud... I noted this last week that cloud is on the decline in the IT world, based on several indicators.

Again, Russ, I appreciate your thread, here.  I hope Logos is looking at it closely.  I am not surprised by your statement here. There are many reasons for people with data they dont want to lose to be wary of their life long data being stored in the cloud in the hands of people they do not know. There are more sensible models that are not being promoted due to the money that is to be made at present in the cloud.

Posts 21
Vincent Xavier Shaw | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 8 2012 12:37 PM

I multitask with both Metro and within the Desktop app.  Metro allows you to snap windows, just like Windows 7 and Logos, given one has enough resolution.  I'm sure you do.

As a tablet, the HP TM2 has a resolution of only 1280 x 800, which is not enough for the aforementioned Metro snapping.  Yet, with the excellent waacom digitizer (the floating sort) and with the touch screen, I do multitask in Windows 8 through the easy task-switching, of sliding in from the far left.  As a tablet, it's wonderously snappy on my slow ULV C2D SU7600 1.3 Ghz processor.  It's better than the android and ipad and playbook, but that's just my opinion, from a tablet perspective.

From a laptop perspective, it's key to have a good user input.  I still can use my touch screen or pen, my keyboard shortcuts, my touchpad or my external mouse.  It's very easy to learn how to go in and out of things.  It's different enough that, as my computer-avoiding wife said it, "People are complaining about that / what?!  That looks easy.  It just works."

It's like when we first learned that we don't need to have the faucet running the whole time when we brush our teeth and floss and shave.  You can save money and water just shutting it off.  But it's hard to want to, even if you know your comfort is holding you back.

I've wondered to myself at times how hard it is to aim at the nested folders, under folders, of the start menu.  Corners are easier to find and take minimal effort with a mouse.  The search and synergy shows so much more practice than any green button.  It feels like I have more room to run around in my old computer's new lease on life.  By the way, I've found it's better now to have a higher speed mouse with greater acceleration, to avoid picking up the mouse over and over to get from one side to the other.  In so doing, I quickly manage the windows and action  authoritatively.

I don't use a 26" monitor with one app in Metro.  Try to learn it's strengths and see how you can use it.  I've only had it a day and found a few new ways to be productive.  Some workflows will never work for some people.  In OneNote, I'd often have the pen in my right hand, while I'm typing on the real keyboard, quickly able to write on the screen as well.  Some people will never markup and draw like that, but I do.  I'm also trying to practice the better side of "consumption" as you put it.  There are times I must meditate, no multi-tasking, just absorb.  Read, no serendipity, just steadiness with prayerful and deliberate focus.  The Kindle for me has been a blessing regarding this very thing that is a strength:  that we are fed, so we can feed others.

Now docked in, expanded via multiple monitors, it just becomes like any other device.  But now, I can multi-task with 3 panes snapped, (because with the higher resolution for my 1280 x 800 screen, yippy) I get to snap a metro window and the usual desktop regulars.  I'll have Logos maximized on one monitor with my bulletin designing program under it, while several IE tabs snapped in Metro in another window while I have several folders, PDFs, Kindle, all sorted out together.

Still, in Logos, I'm upset that the most basic up or down flick to page up or page down doesn't work right.  I receive a graphical confirmation that I'm doing it correctly, but Logos just ignores what every other window recognizes to scroll.  I don't need inertial scrolling or page animations.  While that's all cute, I prefer being able to turn a page with the tech transparent between me and the matter of the moment.  Just one solid page, so I can read the next line quickly.  In keyboard mode, I just click spacebar to page down or shift+spacebar to skip back.  What I would like is the capacitive touches by hand register as window management and page scrolling, but pen flicks and points and gestures handle Logos commands and linking, highlighting and text interaction.

Posts 521
Russ White | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 8 2012 12:49 PM

Vincent Xavier Shaw:
I don't use a 26" monitor with one app in Metro.

Precisely. One app on a large 26in screen wouldn't make any sense... And yet, that's what Metro is moving towards, one app on the screen at a time, like an iPad, or other iOS device. For content creation, you either have the option of one application on the screen at a time, and every application has everything you'll ever need (think the various Visicalc and Wordperfect suites back in the old days), or you must switch between the applications, which consumes time and concentration skills.

So, I go back to my original argument --one application at a time is great for consumption, not for creation. Operating systems designed for one application on the screen at a time will always be very limited in their creation capabilities. The solution, at this point, seems to be many small monitors, but I don't know if people are really going to like that.


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DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 8 2012 3:28 PM

Russ ... I've followed your comments for a while. It's interesting reading.

What you're saying sounds a lot like Microsoft's development of Windows Mobile. At first, they tried to force single app but playing like miniature Windows. Other app writers quickly wrote around it to allow multiple apps accessible. That process made it all the way to 6.1 but the required pen made it pretty dorky.

Then they fell in love with Steve Jobs and introduced 6.5. It was very interesting as a commentary on a company. Of course it was badly done. But again they tried to force a single app and literally removed copy/paste from the UI (but still supported it if you had old software).

So Microsoft is quite capable of nuttiness in their quest to look like Steve.

No offense to Bob & Co, but I'm guessing he'll also have to continue the dumb-it-down (not reflecting on users) if only to economically survive multiple platforms and interfacing software.

"God will save his fallen angels and their broken wings He'll mend."

Posts 21
Vincent Xavier Shaw | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 8 2012 3:46 PM

Today I plugged my convertible Tablet into the 47" LCD, experimenting with just one monitor.  It's great to have on screen multiple windows, quickly switched and organized.  Logos worked.  Metro apps snapped rapidly, while simultaneously on the same screen, I had Logos and other programs snapped and swapping.

The problem is there are alternatives that are much more responsive and agile for serious work, especially exegetically.  This non-native program drags.

I had a 3.6Ghz 8-core with 16gigs RAM, with 4 drives in RAID, discrete GPU for graphical acceleration.  Sadly, I got rid of it.  Why?  Because I built it to make Logos fly, and did it?  Nope.  It was faster for other programs that ran natively.  But for that money, we afforded 2 laptops instead.

Posts 521
Russ White | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 8 2012 3:48 PM

The problem isn't following Apple or not --it's that small screens just don't support rich UI's like the one's we're currently accustomed to. Look at something like spraycan, and compare it to something like Corel Painter --two pieces of software that do the same thing, but optimized for different sized screens. The pure richness of something like Painter just isn't possible on an iPhone screen, no matter how you try to do it. So you either must throttle back richness in the UI, which means throttling back features, or using a larger screen for more complex/creative tasks.

It's clearly possible to do "good art," on an iPhone, but the user is simply going to be confined within the tools available on the smaller UI, which, in turns, constrains the artist into the lines the developer has drawn. To relate the example to something like Logos --suppose you could only really display the results for a search in such a way that you could only choose two commentaries to search --simply because of screen size issues? How would that impact your Scripture studies?

So that, for me --as someone who builds a lot of graphics and books-- is a huge deal in terms of screen size. Maybe someone will find a way to have the same richness on a small screen without having to leap through tons of menus, and without compromise. I know this is what at least some of the folks at MS are struggling with, and I don't think anyone has the answer for that problem right now. The answer, right now, is to assume that users will accept interfaces where the developer makes more of the choices than they do today.

Cloud is a different topic, of course... :-)


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Vincent Xavier Shaw:

Still, in Logos, I'm upset that the most basic up or down flick to page up or page down doesn't work right.  I receive a graphical confirmation that I'm doing it correctly, but Logos just ignores what every other window recognizes to scroll.

This is something that we plan to address (given that Windows tablet/slate computers should become much more common later this year), but I don't have a timeframe for when it'll be available. (Unfortunately, there are some complicated technical dependencies we need to sort out first; it's not as simple as writing a couple of lines of code to enable touch scrolling.)

Posts 540
John Duffy | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 9 2012 4:03 AM

Russ White:
(By the way, this is why I think the next crop of great theological minds are going to come from the old folks in the engineering world --we've been taught to think, and think hard! And hence my drive to get an MDiv, then a PhD, then move into teaching in the next 10 years or so!)


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