Logos - Calvinist/Arminian and Resources Realistically

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Posts 249
Fred J. Morgan | Forum Activity | Posted: Fri, Oct 7 2011 6:48 PM

As promised from previous post (SEE BOTTOM PAGE)

Smile Dear Friend and Christian Brothers and Sisters.

As you know, I am the Anabaptist guy.... constantly posting about more Radical - Swiss Reformation and Anabaptist: History; Theology; Writings.

Well this is not my only topic to the surprise of some! Surprise  I posted s question LONG AGO about the use of pdf format in LOGOS asking if this format could somehow be incorporated since so many pdfs are available.   Well the topic is kinda MUTE because now we can simply transfer our pdf docs to docx and use the PBB builder...   I Love this! Yes

PBB make LOGOS the hands down BEST software available.........  Though I still will attempt more resources which is address in the GENERAL FORUM article For the Love of Logos. (please read this to see the resources if you are not familiar with the request)

I receive the REPLY  at the bottom of this post which raises another question. In the reply I am told to be realistic and not to expect LOGOS to make the material I am suggesting. So I am putting the question to you.  (A) Am I being realistic to expect LOGOS to release these resources?  (B)  Also, Is the REPLY correct in it's content? I really do not know!!!!Tongue Tied


(A) Realistic?

  1. The REPLY suggest that Resources are based on the amount of people who own LOGOS within the DENOMINATION (BELIEFS) of the RESOURCES...  (I.e - More Baptist LOGOS owners = More Baptist Resource!)
  2. LOGOS certainly is more interested in profit. .. I have argued this very point before that LOGOS will remain lacking in variety of resources due to profitability. I was told I am wrong. So, the question is will LOGOS make its RESOURCE BETTER with variety of limit VARIETY for profit?

(B) CONTENT Correctness?

  1. I have searched for the demographics for Calvinist vs. Arminian in America and can not resolve even this number, though I have been informed that even with Calvinism's recent rise they are still way out numbered. I do not really know. Is it fair to Comparing Calvinism to Wesleyan to Anabaptist? (This is a mess to do so I think i.e. - Baptist history ultimately reaches Anabaptist history around 1600 and the Baptist then use the same history, however, many southern Baptist are Calvinist!??!!) (Defining Calvinism and Arminians is difficult at many levels in America due to the wide definitions and beliefs which seem to cross over in many faiths)
  2. Similar to above, Is LOGOS simply a business out to make money? Over the years I have been informed by Corporate and Software owners, they are in fact a business and a Christian group with a mission. I seriously hope he is wrong. As stated in the "For the Love of LOGOS" post... only good can come from adding resources, regardless of your affiliations. You can not truly study Christianity by only looking at "Polarized Resources" (from one viewpoint.)

Hope this opens some debate.

Blessing to all, very interested to see what you think... As I said above; I once share many of the views stated by the kind and sincere poster...   A healthy Debate I think will be helpful to finally come to some kin d of agreement in the end to whether LOGOS is obligated to Software over profit  which is the basis of this topic as I see it. 

Fred

 ----- posted to: Re: The Adobe pdf question - Why? ----- Then sent to my E-mail --------Removed?----------

Re: The Adobe pdf question - Why?
 
Fred,
I don't think you are looking at this objectively. I would like to see more Wesleyan resources, but there are simply more Calvinist Logos users than Wesleyan or Anabaptist users. Logos is under no obligation to carry what I want. There are always going to be fewer Wesleyan and even fewer Anabaptist resources because we are smaller.

Logos is a business and its purpose is to make a profit. Of course, they want to provide a service and try to do so. In fact, they give excellent service.

Logos has given us an excellent solution for much of this in the PBB.


There is nothing wrong with asking and suggesting resources. But we have to have realistic expectations.
If it is not profitable, it probably will not be published.

----- End posted ---  Re: The Adobe pdf question - Why? ----- Then to my E-mail ---------------------------

Posts 11433
DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 7 2011 7:19 PM

As you note, the issue is a business issue.

However in your favor is the present struggle with the publishers. I'd assume the publishers are not entirely sure what platforms and contracts they should be signing, etc. It's a very fluid environment; one a company like Logos can not really afford (they need predictable revenue streams).

It wouldn't surprise me if your desires may happen no matter what, for Logos' survival. As the publishers bounce around, expanding the customer base will be critical. And the obvious expansion opportunities are relative to belief.

I still stay 'keep it up!'

Others can learn from your example too, for their belief-areas. Everyone benefits.

 

"God will save his fallen angels and their broken wings He'll mend."

Posts 1210
Ward Walker | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 7 2011 7:44 PM

From my perspective, this is a great example of where CP or PP would be a good way for Logos to send up a trial balloon to see if they could profitably market the materials you seek.  By rallying others in your faith group to join you in Logos and bid for the resources, that would be a win/win for you and Logos.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 7 2011 8:00 PM

Fred J. Morgan:
Hope this opens some debate.

We've heard from Logos over the last two years that they were working to increase the number of resources that they put out per year. I would expect that to also show up as an increased breadth of material - spreading the increased sales over more people rather than expecting the base to spend even more money.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 769
Alan Charles Gielczyk | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 7 2011 8:52 PM

I don't mean to pick nits but in this case I think it's important. Armenians are from the country of Armenia. Arminians are theologically semi-Pelagian. For clarity sake I think this needs to be distinguished.

Posts 388
MJD | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 7 2011 9:15 PM

Alan Charles Gielczyk:

I don't mean to pick nits but in this case I think it's important. Armenians are from the country of Armenia. Arminians are theologically semi-Pelagian. For clarity sake I think this needs to be distinguished.

I don't agree, I think your clarity is blurred...

Arminian  and Semipelagian are different, they have a different view of grace. Arminianism believes God must initiate with grace and Semipelagianism believes man must initiate to receive grace.

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 7 2011 9:18 PM

Alan Charles Gielczyk:
Armenians are from the country of Armenia. Arminians are theologically

How about we just agree that Armenians are a nationality grouping and Arminians are a theological grouping ? Wilted Flower

 

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Posts 249
Fred J. Morgan | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 7 2011 9:27 PM

Big SmileSurprise This is NOT Nit Picking!!! You are correct and my APOLOGIES.... I  used the AUTO SPELL CORRECT in the Google toolbar.....  I did not catch the change... Thank you and God Bless - Jeff

Posts 2951
Mike Childs | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 7 2011 9:28 PM

MJD:

Arminian  and Semipelagian are different, they have a different view of grace. Arminianism believes God must initiate with grace and Semipelagianism believes man must initiate to receive grace.

As an Arminian, thanks MJD.  You are exactly right.  I am definately not Semipelagian. 

Fred, I immediately deleted the post upon writing it because I realized it would be misunderstood, and not be helpful.  I guess you were sent a copy any way.  I did not mean that none of the resources would be published by Logos.  I hope they are.  I encourage you to continue.  They would interest me.  I also continue to ask for Wesleyan resources, and expect some to be published.

But I recognize that it is in Logos' interest to publish what will sell the most copies.  I think that is okay, and I am excited about PBB as means of adding resources that would not otherwise be published.

I intended no criticism, and I realized the post appeared critical.  That is why I deleted it.  I apologize.  It sounded like I was talking down to you, and arrogance is never cool.

 

"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley

Posts 249
Fred J. Morgan | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 7 2011 9:29 PM

Thanks Denise Smile

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 7 2011 10:10 PM

Super Tramp:
How about we just agree that Armenians are a nationality grouping and Arminians are a theological grouping ? 

But the Armenian Church has a long illustrious history in its own right. And it is delightful that Catholic, Orthodox and some Protestants consider themselves members first of the Armenian Church and only secondarily as falling into the Western divisions.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 7 2011 10:18 PM

Michael Childs:
But I recognize that it is in Logos' interest to publish what will sell the most copies.

I think this is only partially true. Volume can be gained by increasing the size of libraries of current users or by increasing the number of users. To dominate the market Logos needs to play to the needs of professors in Bible Colleges and Seminaries so that the students are introduced to Logos. Then Logos has to appeal to those students as they go out into the ministries ... Logos would hope to the point that the pastors recommend Logos to their key associates (Bible Study leaders). All of which means that Logos must provide some specialized, small volume resources for a variety of theological stances and ministerial duties.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 249
Fred J. Morgan | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 7 2011 10:38 PM

As state, Calvinist/Armenian is so slurred it can be a real mess.

No different than many religions. Baptist are from the Radical Movement however many Souther Baptist are Calvinist.

Getting back to the subject of resource. They need not be just for one faith to be important.

Go to Google, type "Baptist Timeline" - Check a few pages.. you will find some stating Anabaptist, many if before 1600 (John Smyth was first true Baptist being that the Word Anabaptist was illegal in europe at this time) You will probably find Jon Hus around 1400 (Died for same ideas of Luther 95 Thesis 100 years before Luther, Zwinglie and Calvin) around 1500 + you will begin to see many Radicals; Simons, Zwinglie, Mantz, Hubmeyer, Hetzier - many called Baptist but actually Re-Baptisers or Anabaptist (Word Baptist started after last two men called Anabatist were Myrtyred in England.

So Questions are to the SERIOUS STUDENT and RESEARCHER;

  • How do you study Baptist History (A large group owning LOGOS - larger than Mennonites at least) without the Radical Movement Histories?
  • Being that those escaping Europe because of religious persicution ( those persecuted by BOTH Protestant and Catholics which were the Radicals) How do you even study American History without some knowledge?
  • Jon Hus died for the same idea as Luther in 1400 or so, about 100 years before Luther, Can you seriously study the Protestan Reformation without these earlier radicals?

These are not meant to seek ANSWERS they are just here to show that the Radicals and Swiss Histories ALONE are a serious part of resource lacking FOR ALL DENOMINATION.

This who idea always seems to come back to not enough of the Anabaptist owning LOGOS to make the ventur worth the trouble to LOGOS to make the resource... THIS IS WRONG.. All of you are missing the point!   -  You are not getting a REAL education on your denomination and how it was shaped by, how it reacted to, How it is effected today by these people and there theology and beliefs.  Smile

Need to stop God Bless - Mens Breakfast at Church rtomorrow and I have Tomato Grave still to make.

Fred

Posts 769
Alan Charles Gielczyk | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Oct 8 2011 12:02 AM

Super Tramp:

Alan Charles Gielczyk:
Armenians are from the country of Armenia. Arminians are theologically

How about we just agree that Armenians are a nationality grouping and Arminians are a theological grouping ? Wilted Flower

 

 

Yes, I did not mean to start a theological debate, let's just say Arminians belong to a particular theological persuasion.

Posts 2765
DominicM | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Oct 8 2011 12:12 AM

if you dont ask you dont get so keep asking..

Never Deprive Anyone of Hope.. It Might Be ALL They Have

Posts 249
Fred J. Morgan | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Oct 8 2011 1:24 PM

Thank MJD

No criticism was taken, I removed your name so no one would think of that... This is however not the first time this was said.. So I really wanted to get some reaction to get a feel of what the water temp was.

Blessing    Fred

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Oct 8 2011 8:31 PM

MJ. Smith:
But the Armenian Church has a long illustrious history in its own right.

Yes, but the adjectives "Apostolic" & "Church" are theologically descriptive, while "Armenian" is ethnic. I worked with an Islamic Armenian immigrant in the late 1970s.

Calling someone a "Spanish" Christian does not tell us whether they are Catholic or otherwise.  Telling me someone worships at temple in Mayanmar does not tell me if they are Buddhist or Jewish. Big Smile  (Well, we could hazard a good guess.) edit: OK, bad example.

I wonder what response is reasonable to those at the Heritage Foundation or Coral Ridge Presbyterian Church that say America is a "Christian" nation......  I am happy the Armenians can enjoy a spirit of national unity but I have always felt a sadness when missionary efforts attempt to convert prospects to a culture rather than share the Gospel message with them. Even the church in Jerusalem seemed to try that for a while. 

When conservative Western missionaries held service in a rural village, the native women attended with no shirts. The missionary wives provided the natives with shirts for "modesty" sake. At the next meeting the preacher was shocked to see the women had cut holes in the front of the shirts to facilitate ***-feeding more easily. We should be Christians first & foremost, regardless of our own nationality.  .....ooOPs, fell off my soapbox.

Ha! I was censored!  The Western culture auto-censor did not like God's design for feeding infants. Surprise I believe the La Leche League must have gotten to the natives before the Western missionaries.

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Oct 8 2011 8:47 PM

DominicM:

if you dont ask you dont get so keep asking..

I hope Jeff (Fred Morgan) does keep asking. I will always give a thumbs-up for Anabaptist resources. Yes Cool

 

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Oct 9 2011 12:43 AM

Super Tramp:
while "Armenian" is ethnic.

The Armenian Church is a distinct branch of Christianity not an ethnic designation. http://www.sourphagop.org/churchtime.html Note that they had their own canon law (church law) by 444 AD. The Armenians I have known generally have aligned themselves in the US to either Orthodox or Catholic churches but I've known one who refuses to admit such an alignment because her church is the Armenian Church.

Super Tramp:
edit: OK, bad example.

Yeah , 'cause its a Hindu templeWink

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Oct 9 2011 7:49 AM

MJ. Smith:
The Armenian Church is a distinct branch of Christianity not an ethnic designation. http://www.sourphagop.org/churchtime.html Note that they had their own canon law (church law) by 444 AD.

So the Anglican Church  is a better comparison?     (The "Church of England" vs a church in England) I did not know they were so distinct. I also did not know my Armenian Islamic co-worker was such a minority in his own country! ~Could be that is why he emigrated to the USA.

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