Leiden Peshitta. Is it really?

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David Knoll | Forum Activity | Posted: Wed, Oct 19 2011 9:38 AM

I have recommended the forthcoming Leiden Peshitta to a Peshitta expert. He pointed out to me that the screenshot of Isa 25:6-10 does not reflect the printed edition of the Leiden Peshitta nor any of the variant readings included in it. He also added that the printed Leiden Peshitta does not include the NT, yet the Logos product will include : "The entire running text of the entire Old Testament and New Testament, plus deutero-canonical works" 

So he asked me and I ask here what is the nature of the text to be included in this product? It is of extreme importance. I already bought the text of 7A1 through a different vendor and I am only interested in this text if it contains a superior text.

 

I would appreciate a reply by someone in charge of this project in Logos. 

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 19 2011 12:51 PM

If you go to the Leiden University site you'll find the answer http://www.hum.leiden.edu/religion/research/research-programmes/antiquity/peshitta-electronic-text-project.html

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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David Knoll | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 19 2011 1:16 PM

MJ. Smith:

Thank you MJ I have seen that already but the Leiden site states explicitly that only the OT and the Deuterocanonical books are included which stands in contradiction to the description by Logos. The Leiden site also says they follow the printed edition and the sample on the Logos site isn't similar to the printed edition.

 

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 19 2011 1:30 PM

David Knoll:
The Leiden site also says they follow the printed edition and the sample on the Logos site isn't similar to the printed edition.

Somehow, I don't read the site this way ... even after you indicated it's how you read the site. I understand the electronic version to be a new version drawn from all their previous work.

I agree that the NT claim seems bogus.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Vincent Setterholm | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 19 2011 1:34 PM

MJ. Smith:
I agree that the NT claim seems bogus.

The NT was included by the Leiden team in the electronic edition as a matter of convenience. The NT text comes from George Kiraz' SEDRA database.

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David Knoll | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 19 2011 1:50 PM

MJ. Smith:
Somehow, I don't read the site this way ... even after you indicated it's how you read the site. I understand the electronic version to be a new version drawn from all their previous work.

Vincent is that true? Is this an eclectic edition with no apparatus which is different from the printed volumes?

If that is so, how can I know the origin of each reading? I can't even get the answer from the printed volumes...

I also don't understand how this can be settled with this paragraph from the site:

 

"As far as books of the Peshitta have appeared in the Leiden Peshitta edition, the main 

text of the edition is given. This applies to all the volumes mentioned in table 3. The 

basic text of the edition is the manuscript 7a1. However, the use of this text has 

changed in the course of time. In the first volumes 7a1 was reproduced ‘unchanged, 

except for the correction of obvious clerical errors that do not make sense’. But in

later volumes, beginning with II/4 Kings (1976), the text of 7a1 is also emended if it is 

not supported by at least two other manuscripts of up to and including the tenth century.

 Even conjectures, without any support of the textual witnesses, were allowed, 

though hardly ever used. Readings in the main text of the Leiden Peshitta edition that 

do not occur in 7a1 are put between the symbols † … †."

 

Vincent could you please elaborate on the text type of this edition? 

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 19 2011 2:00 PM

Okay, now I understand your questionEmbarrassed Maybe we need to find out the state of the Leiden Peshitta database for the next Logos release.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 19 2011 2:05 PM

Limited apparatus.


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Vincent Setterholm | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 19 2011 9:36 PM

David Knoll:
Vincent could you please elaborate on the text type of this edition? 

There is an apparatus and, if I remember rightly, the frontmatter has a book-by-book introduction covering the sources used. Some books (or large portions of books) with a significant alternate text, like Tobit, provide a second version (which we'll have as a second resource, much like the way the alternate texts of the LXX are handled).

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Tim Finlay | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 19 2011 10:40 PM

Why has the Leiden Peshitta suddenly been postponed? I have been waiting months for this, it said on the site that it would come out on October 27, and now it has been postponed indefinitely. I really need this for text-critical work on a project due soon. When is it likely to be available?

Tim.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 19 2011 11:07 PM

Vincent Setterholm:
the frontmatter has a book-by-book introduction

A PDF of the front matter is available on the Leiden site

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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David Knoll | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 20 2011 3:52 AM

MJ. Smith:

Vincent Setterholm:
the frontmatter has a book-by-book introduction

A PDF of the front matter is available on the Leiden site

I quoted the front matter above. If the text is the same text as the published volume, how come the sample on the Logos site is different?

I still don't understand what sort of text this product contains. How can I refer people to buy this product when even I am unable to understand what it is?

(and I have worked with the printed Leiden many times). We need to get some clarification about this product. 

 

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Patrick J. Madden | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Sep 13 2019 9:10 AM

So how is this project doing?  I bought the Logos version of the Leiden Peshitta (at considerable expense) in the hopes of having both the biblical text and the critical apparatus.  I am currently studying Tobit.  I notice that a critical apparatus is available for most of the OT, and even some of the Apocrypha, but there is no critical apparatus for Tobit, even though the "hard copy" appears to have been published almost 20 years ago.

J. A.  Emerton, Lebram, J. C., and Bidawid, R. J., Eds., The Old Testament in Syriac according to the Peshitta Version. Sample Edition: Song of Songs; Tobit; 4 Ezra. Leiden: E.J. Brill, 1996.

Also, for the books for which a critical apparatus exists: how complete is the Logos apparatus?  Does it contain all variants found in the printed edition, or only "major variants?"

Thanks for any insights.

Pat Madden

a.k.a. Rev. Patrick J. Madden, Ph.D.

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Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Sep 13 2019 10:15 AM

Hopefully you'll get further than David. If Vincent doesn't appear, you might try a separate thread starting with 'Vincent:' and referencing this,

I doubt you'll have much luck, if Logosian history repeats; I assume you also have Gottengen's Tobit, whose apparatus does a little better on Syr-Tobit. And Herneneia's Tobit soon to arrive.


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Bobby Terhune | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Sep 13 2019 11:26 AM

Vincent no longer works at Faithlife

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Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Sep 13 2019 11:44 AM

Well, that's not good. On several fronts.  Thank you, Bobby.


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David Knoll | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Sep 14 2019 12:40 AM

Patrick J. Madden:
Also, for the books for which a critical apparatus exists: how complete is the Logos apparatus?  Does it contain all variants found in the printed edition, or only "major variants?"

It is not complete. I have no idea what edition this resource reflects.

Do not rely on it. 

Posts 6
Patrick J. Madden | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Sep 14 2019 6:32 AM

Thanks, David. 

I guess the lesson is that, especially when one buys an "academic" resource from Logos, it is important to read the "fine print," to be sure what one is purchasing.  Logos is fine for a "quick check," but one would be embarrassed to cite it in an article in The Journal of Biblical Literature or The Catholic Biblical Quarterly.

Peace!

Pat

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