Dear Bob Pritchett, may I have a moment of your time?
Attention: Bob Pritchett
Dear Mr Pritchett,
As a long and hitherto loyal Logos customer, I would like to ask you to do two things:
- Firstly, I'd like you to experience Logos 4 on Mac for yourself and share your experiences. That is, I'd like to ask you to run a Bible Word Study and attempt to use the results. Also attempt a simple search and try to use the results. Please complete both word-study and search using the steps below. Then please post your thoughts about whether you feel your experience is in line with what Logos as a company has promised to its customers.
- Secondly, I would like to ask you to comment on this forum thread.
If you complete the first of the above two tasks I suspect you will be better able to understand the sentiments expressed in the forum thread I've asked you to comment on.
I look forward to hearing about your experiences and thoughts.
Sincerely,
Stuart Robertson.
Bible Word Study Test
- Open up a Macbook / iMac with 8GB RAM (a powerful machine by modern standards) with the latest operating system (OS X 10.7.2).
- Start up Logos 4.5 beta 3.
- Open an ESV Bible pane.
- Navigate to Exodus 15.11
- Right-click on the word 'LORD' and select "Bible Word Study"
- Scroll down to the GRAMMATICAL RELATIONSHIPS section.
- Expand the first "twistie" beneath "Subject of... 'Amar - to say'.
- Now try to scroll down in the Word Study window.
- Next, click on the "More >>" link (below the results you just scrolled through).
- Finally, scroll up and down in the Bible Word Study window.
NOTE: You might not be able to complete this exercise as Logos usually crashes
at step 9. I apologize in advance for any disappointment this may cause.
Simple Search Test
- Restart Logos (don't worry - you'll get used to restarting Logos for Mac frequently)
- Press Cmd+Shift+S or click on the Magnfying glass to start new search.
- Select 'Bible' as the type of search and set up to search 'All Bible text' in 'All Passages' in 'ESV'.
- Type holy OR holiness in the search field and press Enter.
- Now scroll up and down through the results list. Click on a few search results. And scroll through the search results a bit more.
NOTE: If you find Logos crashes while scrolling through the search results or while you attempt certain basic tasks, you might want to reboot your Mac and/or enable debug logging and send log files to the forum.
Comments
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Link to the forum thread is here: http://community.logos.com/forums/t/40072.aspx
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Hi Bob,
I'm guessing you're either out of town, have run into difficulties with the two tests, or are still typing up your experiences with Logos on Mac...?
Seriously, though, when you get a chance I really would like to hear your thoughts. I'm guessing that you don't actually use Logos for Mac on a daily basis so I'm keen to hear whether, after completion of the above tests, you think Logos for Mac provides an acceptable user experience. Confident that these matters are important to you, I'm hoping you'll express concern about the current level of usability and stability and voice your firm commitment to fix what's broken and make good the promises made.
Yours in hope,
Stuart.
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I am not Bob [:D]
But the test worked fine for me on the lastest stable Mac version.
I am working with Logos 4 Mac andnd Accordance on a daily basis and enjoy using both programs.
As you must know, beta versions are not supported, you may test them and let the software developers know your concerns and the crashes you experience. Please consider using a stable version.
Personally, I do not find THIS a right way to address Bob and/or Logos with your concerns.
Just my thoughts for this moment.
Greetings from The Netherlands,
Hans
MacOS Sierra / Logos 7 Collector's Edition & All Base Packages / Logos Now
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Stuart,
I'm sorry for the trouble you are having, but understand that beta software can be expected to behave in beta ways. You have chosen to use the beta despite warnings that instability may come along with it. By making this choice, you are helping to improve the product. Your logs, your reports, your discussion of the issue gives devs things to look at to find bugs in the code. But it is unreasonable to protest when beta code acts like beta code.
It is possible to switch from beta to stable. It can be a headache, but it can be done. If the behavior of the beta software is too much, remove your Logos files from Applications and from Library/Application Support/Logos4 and reload Logos again, using the stable version.
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Stuart Robertson said:
Bible Word Study Test
- Open up a Macbook / iMac with 8GB RAM (a powerful machine by modern standards) with the latest operating system (OS X 10.7.2).
- Start up Logos 4.5 beta 3.
- Open an ESV Bible pane.
- Navigate to Exodus 15.11
- Right-click on the word 'LORD' and select "Bible Word Study"
- Scroll down to the GRAMMATICAL RELATIONSHIPS section.
- Expand the first "twistie" beneath "Subject of... 'Amar - to say'.
- Now try to scroll down in the Word Study window.
- Next, click on the "More >>" link (below the results you just scrolled through).
- Finally, scroll up and down in the Bible Word Study window.
NOTE: You might not be able to complete this exercise as Logos usually crashes
at step 9. I apologize in advance for any disappointment this may cause.I would definitely recommend you post these findings to the appropriate Beta forum. They will want to know about them so they don't creep into the stable versions.
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I can unfortunately confirm this behavior on my computer running 4.3 SR5.
macOS, iOS & iPadOS |Logs| Install
Choose Truth Over Tribe | Become a Joyful Outsider!0 -
Definitely a Mac problem. Windows had no problem with it. 4.5 SR 3
Mission: To serve God as He desires.
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I also can confirm this as well as several other breakages, which have been reported properly, over and over and over again.
I am using the latest stable release 4.3 SR5.
Screen shared with tech support to solve issues.
Tech support reports cannot fix most issues.
The Problem is not us.
The Problem is not Mac.
This Crash is exactly duplicated on my machine.
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Running Mac with 4.5 SR-5 with no problems whatsoever performing the test. It seems to react differently with different people. Considering that some are running Beta and others are not but are having the same problem, the problem could possibly be a resource issue. Some individuals may have a resource from which Logos is pulling that is causing the crash that others do not. I have the platinum package with additional resources I have purchased so mine is pulling from quite a few. Don't know the solution but it is obviously not a universal problem.
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Stuart Robertson said:
Start up Logos 4.5 beta 3.
Aahh... You are talking about the beta software. The version that is offered to adventurous users for testing purposes; the version that warns of instability and crashes. You should feel proud yo have helped identify an area that needs addressing. (That's what beta testers do.) Test pilots like Chuck Yeager endured many crashes. At least your Logos beta crash was not fatal. [;)]
Thanks for helping make Logos 4 Mac better for end users like myself. Chris already offered a better response:
Chris Roberts said:Stuart,
I'm sorry for the trouble you are having, but understand that beta software can be expected to behave in beta ways. You have chosen to use the beta despite warnings that instability may come along with it. By making this choice, you are helping to improve the product. Your logs, your reports, your discussion of the issue gives devs things to look at to find bugs in the code. But it is unreasonable to protest when beta code acts like beta code.
It is possible to switch from beta to stable. It can be a headache, but it can be done. If the behavior of the beta software is too much, remove your Logos files from Applications and from Library/Application Support/Logos4 and reload Logos again, using the stable version.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Fr. Charles R. Matheny said:
I also can confirm this as well as several other breakages, which have been reported properly, over and over and over again.
I am using the latest stable release 4.3 SR5.
Screen shared with tech support to solve issues.
Tech support reports cannot fix most issues.
The Problem is not us.
The Problem is not Mac.
This Crash is exactly duplicated on my machine.
Uh-Oh. So this is happening with the stable release too? Has anyone actually had this failure iin Windows? I have encountered a few programs that are not running properly under Mac OS X 10.7.1 LION. Logos is not one of them.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Dear ST: There are a slew of things not running correctly in logos for Mac, a huge number, in leopard , snow leopard and Lion.
I reported some "basic features" not working to Logos last week, they had no idea were not working and, had no fix.
Blessings
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I can also confirm that Logos crashes on doing the above Exodus search. I'm using the following version of L4:
Logos Bible Software 4.3 SR-5
I am also running OS X 10.7.2 but only have a mid-2010 MacBook with 4GB of RAM.
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I'm running Logos on Windows 7. I can complete the above search, but it does take a while.
I get the impression that the delays I get are from my limited graphics capability (no separate graphics card on my laptop) rather than the processing. The actual search seems to be completed in a few seconds, but displaying it is more difficult and gets even more difficult when you hit "more".
I don't know much about Mac, but if wonder if it is a graphics problem you are having there. Your 8 GB of RAM would therefore be irrelevant; the graphics processing power would be the limiting factor.
Hope this helps.
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For the record, I've run both the "stable" versions as well as the betas, having gone through the pain in time past to switch from the beta back to a "stable" version, and recently to switch from a "stable" version to a beta, in the hope that the betas might solve the steady stream of bugs, hangs and crashes that I run into daily. And, no, that's not an overstatement or hyperbole... I have to force-quit Logos at least once per study session. Perhaps I have a low pain threshold, but when a program hangs for more than 60 seconds my train of thought is broken and it's usually faster simply to restart it.
HansK said:Personally, I do not find THIS a right way to address Bob and/or Logos with your concerns
As for using the forum to address Bob and/or Logos... what other voice do I have? Perhaps Bob does use Logos for Mac daily during his personal devotional times, but I doubt it. If the CEO of a company experienced Logos for Mac for a week you can be sure there would be renewed focus and commitment to make good on promises.
But, granting that there may be a better way to present my concerns to Bob (I'm keen to know what those ways might be), it is still telling that Bob has not yet responded in any way to my concerns.
If you had asked what my motivations have been, you might have heard that I have grown tired of "trying to make Logos work" (whether beta or stable) and was appealing to Bob, perhaps in a flawed manner, to reassure me (and others in the same boat) that he is committed to fixing Logos for Mac. But you didn't ask, and neither has Bob provided any assurance that Logos takes these issues (and customers, inelegant and flawed as my communication may be).
Truthfully, I had hoped that Bob would at least try the "two tests" and address this forum openly and honestly. Perhaps he still will.
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Stuart Robertson said:
As for using the forum to address Bob and/or Logos... what other voice do I have? <SNIP> But, granting that there may be a better way to present my concerns to Bob (I'm keen to know what those ways might be).
Bob has posted his personal email address multiple times bob@logos.com Perhaps you should try that approach rather than attempting to embarrass him on a public forum.
For the record, the tests you propose ran without incident using L4 Mac 4.3 SR-5 with Mac OS 10.5.8 on a 4.5 year old Mac Pro. I am not inclined to repeat on my MBP.
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Stuart Robertson said:
As for using the forum to address Bob and/or Logos... what other voice do I have?
Bob publicizes his email address and welcomes direct contact from users: bob@logos.com.
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I can confirm the crash using 4.3 SR-5 on the mac. Let's hope for a fix in an upcoming serve release.
I must say though that generally I find logos on the mac to be very stable for my needs. But then again, I don't normally do word studies on "LORD", Too many verses for my little brain - hehe.
Andrew Mitchell
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Jonathan Pitts said:
I'm running Logos on Windows 7. I can complete the above search, but it does take a while.
Same here, using the latest stable release on a Dell Core 2 Duo with 4GB my Notebook is clearly struggling. Logos frequently loses the focus and the active point in the document each time it is displayed seems quite random... However, Logos does not crash, I did think it would a couple of times but it kept going... Does feel like this request is stretching some of Logos' abilities.
God Bless
Graham
Pastor - NTCOG Basingstoke
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The desire to do a word study on "LORD" came up as a result of discussions with a Muslim friend, who insisted that God's mercy is greater than (and more frequently attested to in the Bible) than God's holiness. So I thought I'd do various word studies and syntax searches to pull together some notes so as to be able to better speak about the issue. Yet 1 hour, 4 force-quits and two crashes later, I finally gave up on Logos.
Yes, I know I can do English-based word studies (hence my searches for 'holi* OR holy' AND (LORD OR God)', etc. and then try to manually pare down the results. But the whole point of a tool like Logos (for me, at least) is that it is supposed to support Bible study and help provide answers (not frustration).
And yes, there were many "hits" under the word "LORD", as expected. Yet, not knowing the exact query to formulate (if I knew the answer I wouldn't be using Logos in the first place), I simply started, hoping to learn and explore as I went along and be able to refine and better formulate subsequent queries.
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Graham Owen said:
Does feel like this request is stretching some of Logos' abilities.
So the solution is simply to not click on "twisties" and explore results in case Logos hangs or crashes...?
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Yes, I can confirm that Logos for Mac 4.3 SR-5 crashed on step 9 on my MacBookPro. I understand your frustration.
I run Parallels 7.0 and run Logos for Windows 4.3 SR-5 as my stop gap solution, tested the steps, no problem.
JK
MacBookPro Retina 15" Late 2013 2.6GHz RAM:16GB SSD:500GB macOS Sierra 10.12.3 | iPhone 7 Plus iOS 10.2.1
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For another data point I did this test.
Machine: 4 year old Dell 1745 running Windows 7 home premium with a 2.3 duo core processor / ATI 1mb video / 6gb ram.
Results:
Ran the bible study fine; it took 15 seconds for the grammatical section to populate; clearly the machine was working hard.
Expanding the "to say" section took 20 seconds to populate the results and again, clearly the machine was being taxed.
clicking the "more" button caused my machine to show the "not responding" message for about 5-10 seconds but the rest of the results popped up and scrolling was hitch free.
Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
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alabama24 said:
I can unfortunately confirm this behavior on my computer running 4.3 SR5.
I can also confirm this behaviour.
Installation:
- iMac 27" mid-2011, i7 processor, 8GB RAM
- Purchased with Lion installed
- Upgraded to Lion 10.7.2
- Clean installation of Mac OS X, no funny stuff installed. I am an IT Director, I know computing. I don't say this to brag but to confirm I have a clean machine.
- Clean install of Logos 4. Never any beta installations of Logos 4 on machine.
- Currently fully and cleaned upgraded version of Logos 4 for Mac, 4.3 SR-5
Confirm crashed on step nine - "Next, click on the "More >>" link (below the results you just scrolled through)"
"I want to know all God's thoughts; the rest are just details." - Albert Einstein
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Dear Jonathan: If my memory serves me well, we were just told ( over here on the mac side) that Logos really does not offload much at all to the video processor and for that matter, does not take much advantage of multi-core processor's, hyper threading .
Thus, do not think this is an issue concerning video card abilities.
It was a good thought though.
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Charles,
I thought Logos 4 for Mac does not explicitly switch to the discrete graphics card. I tried with Biblical People, Places & Things, it uses only the integrated graphics card.
But, when I run the Home Page Passage Guide, I noticed that Logos 4 actually triggers the switched (?) - not much graphics on the Layout though (?)
I have gfxCardStatus v2.1 installed ... you can see the status below
JK
MacBookPro Retina 15" Late 2013 2.6GHz RAM:16GB SSD:500GB macOS Sierra 10.12.3 | iPhone 7 Plus iOS 10.2.1
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Dear Jack: I do not think he was "trying to Embarrass" , at all.
I think he is just trying to get some help with this product-for everyone.
In my case, I have been on the forums ( got some help for some things, thanks to all ), been on all the Wiki's, watched all the video's, tried all the tweaks ( MAJOR time investment away from my Studies ), have called and spent time with Logos tech support, screen shared etc. ( Major time spent).
I am not retired, I do not have "spare time", I am always pressed for time, thus I purchase these tools to help me make good use of my time in God's word, to help my studies in order to properly instruct/bless others as well as be blessed myself.
I, for one, have need to be doing "other things" than posting here to find answers, calling technical support, reading wiki's, watching video's on how to use the software, yet, willing to "invest" that time in order to use time saving helpful tools.
ok, The Investment of: Money, Time, Effort is : Wasted, if the Product will not do what it is supposed to do.
That is the point, that is my frustration.
My Computer is far and away above the specs stated that one needs, I use the latest stable version, have no weird software on my computers, no problems with other software.
Therefore, like Stuart, just want to know what to do about the constant crashes, constant hangs, slow and buggy features, the fact it often detracts from studies instead of enhancing study.
Again, I did not see the post as trying to embarrass anyone ( perhaps a little good natured tongue in cheek ) , rather just an honest looking for real answers.
Blessings,
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Limjk: Wow! That IS interesting.
I am using IStat Menu, it never seems to show graphic card load much at all for tagging searches. It does of come up when there is high graphic content like pics and such, but not when doing word queries.
Could you , if you don't mind, try the test many have been trying, step by step, and see if it is somehow hammering the graphics card on your unit?
Might be good info.
If we find some consistent pattern, we could write-up our results and tests that got us there and send them in or get "Smiling" to forward them on.
thanks, appreciate any help.
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Fr. Charles R. Matheny said:
I am not retired, I do not have "spare time", I am always pressed for time
Do not understand this statement. I am not retired either and am also always pressed for time.
Fr. Charles R. Matheny said:Dear Jack: I do not think he was "trying to Embarrass" , at all.
My point is that Bob Pritchett has repeatedly posted his email address, as have all of Logos' senior staff. A serious attempt to communicate would be a private email. Open letters on public forums normally have a different motive.
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I am running Logos Bible Software 4.3 SR-5 (4.30.0.1603)
Crashed at step #9.
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Dear Jack: Retired statement was just about time management.
No reference intended toward anyone else's state in life.
Simply intending to show that , when working with software for Biblical studies/sermon prep, need to be able to do so functionally.
Sorry for the confusion, should have been more clear. ( See why I need software-smile )
Did not know staff e-mails were posted, thought forums were place to come with questions,issues, etc.
Got that info from Logos.
Blessings
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Judging men's hearts is always fun, no doubt. Even harder is judging one's own heart (Jer 17:9). Being aware of the deceitfulness of my own heart, and since it's my motives that are questioned, let me therefore comment carefully...
Allowing for the possibility that I am self-deceived, I can truthfully say that my motive here was and still is a serious attempt to communicate with Bob. My desire is:
- to ask Bob to take these issues seriously
- that Bob will provide assurance that he is aware of them (has seen Logos crash first hand) and is willing to increase and renew Logos' effort to address these issues.
I rewrote the post that started this thread three times before I clicked "Post", trying to ensure that I was not disrespectful or accusatory. I tried to lead Bob through a simple, fact-based experience of what using Logos for Mac is actually like so that he can better understand my (and others') frustrations. Indeed, the only reason why I posted and have continued to respond to posts is that I am torn down the middle... wanting to ditch Logos completely due to constant frustration, and yet wanting to use Logos (and hoping it might improve) since I need all the help I can get as far as Bible study and exegesis are concerned.
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Jack Caviness said:Fr. Charles R. Matheny said:
Dear Jack: I do not think he was "trying to Embarrass" , at all.
My point is that Bob Pritchett has repeatedly posted his email address, as have all of Logos' senior staff. A serious attempt to communicate would be a private email. Open letters on public forums normally have a different motive.
I think the public forum is a great place to address the company/proprietor with the question if the user so chooses. I also think Bob, can choose to answer or not choose to answer the user.
Because, someone tells the proprietor there is a problem in an open format, this does not mean he/she is trying to embarrass them.
I also like the open nature of a post for all users to see the question. Because, additional users, may be able to chime in and provide insight or further develop the problem.
It is very typical on the forum, to have a "take side" mentality, rather than a "take issue" of the problem.
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Stuart Robertson said:
Allowing for the possibility that I am self-deceived, I can truthfully say that my motive here was and still is a serious attempt to communicate with Bob.
Understood and recognized, and as more people have chimed in with an experience similar to yours in the stable branch, I understand where there would be much frustration.
Logos has stated that the Mac version is not a stepchild product, and they have certainly gone a ways toward building their Mac development team, but the Mac version continually lags in several areas and it is frustrating to see it called feature complete when some of those features are only halfway implemented or partially working. Even more frustrating if there is a behavior which consistently, demonstrably results in a crash yet it goes unfixed even in the stable version.
I stated a while back that I wish the Mac team would take a break from implementing new features and would focus for a while on fixing existing features. I want to see all the shiny new toys in the Mac version, but even more, I want to see all the current toys working with elegance and polish.
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As is likely the case, Bob may have his eyes directed elsewhere. To that end I've emailed him a link to this thread. I assure you based upon past experience he is not ignoring anything on purpose. As a CEO however he has to keep himself busy doing lots of other things too.
:-)
Often times when a post like this occurs, Bob will respond. Give him time though.
Sarcasm is my love language. Obviously I love you. 0 -
Ok, Tried the word search query with Nasb-interesting!
Logos did not crash right away. It did freeze up, spinning beach balls several times, fans come up on high, processor getting pretty hammered, used 1 goig of ram, video card did not change.
Finally freed-up and populated list, was able to scroll, but jerky.
On try to close search, Logos crashed and presented with crash screen.
Interpretation: Logos not liking this query and, has issues with Esv as well
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Chris Roberts said:
I stated a while back that I wish the Mac team would take a break from implementing new features and would focus for a while on fixing existing features. I want to see all the shiny new toys in the Mac version, but even more, I want to see all the current toys working with elegance and polish.
That, in a nutshell, is what I'm asking Bob for. For months others have asked, as have I (one among many such requests), for this for many months now.
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I'm sorry for the delayed response. I'm on the road, visiting my son at school, and so I've spent less time in the forums the last few days.
I'm also very sorry for your frustration with the Mac. I confess to being frustrated with the Mac, too. For many years we were able to dedicate all our development resources to one monopolistic platform. Imperfect as it was, it meant we only had to code, optimize, and bug-fix one platform.
Then Steve Jobs had to go and make the Mac amazing, run circles around Windows, and then create a phone that finally made mobile apps feasible. This provoked Google into building their own phone platform and drumming up a lot of support, too.
So now I have to develop Logos Bible Software -- which was mature and finally stabilizing on Windows -- on three more platforms. So every new feature needs to be implemented on four platforms (with UI coded in completely different languages! -- C#, Objective C, and Java) and things keep shaking up with new releases of the OS that change screen size (hello, iPad! Android tablets!) and behavior. (Lion, iOS 5, Honeycomb, etc.)
:-)
If you'll forgive a poor analogy... we've been developing gas-powered cars for years. We're really, really good at it. The designs have been optimized and tweaked and our engineers know a lot about the technologies involved.
Now everyone wants an electric car. Some want a natural gas car, too. Some want a hybrid gas/electric. So we learn to build all three of these variants. We use the same body and shell when possible, but have to tweak some things because batteries are different than gas tanks, and one model needs both, etc. And we do a pretty good job of making a line of cars that look alike but have dramatically different stuff under the hood.
Then someone takes the electric car onto the race track and tries to push the accelerator all the way down for a few dozen laps. And it isn't the same experience as the gas car. And sometimes the electronics freeze up and the car slows to a stop and has to be reset. (There's your "crash" -- nobody's killed, though.)
Do I feel bad about that? Yes.
Does it sting when someone challenges me: "Do you drive the electric car every day? Have you ever tried racing it? I think you should take it for a few high-speed laps and feel the poor performance. In fact, try driving it all week and see all the ways in which the fit and finish and feel are off."
Yes. I know the electric car isn't where the gas powered car is. (And yet I know that the people who are > 50% of my core market still expect a newer, better model of the gas car soon, and that any feature we add to it will be expected simultaneously on the electric, hybrid, and natural gas models.)
End of analogy.
Yes, I have a Mac on my desktop. It's not my primary machine, though, and I probably don't use Logos on it enough. I mostly use it on Windows and my iOS devices.
"Lord" in Bible searching is like asking any search engine for "the" or "and." Yes, I understand why it's an important search, but asking the software to do a Bible Word Study Guide on it is like racing a car. It generates a massive data set and pushes the limits.
(According to a developer, the problem here isn't in our underlying common Bible software code, but in our implementation of the controls used for display, which work differently on the Mac and need to be optimized specifically for the Mac.)
I feel terrible about every bug that affects our users. And I'd feel really bad if we were ignoring you and not putting anything into the Mac. But take a look at:
http://wiki.logos.com/Logos_4_Release_Notes
We've put out a new release every few weeks for two years. I believe there are Mac bug fixes or feature additions in every single release. We've had a team on it non-stop.
Have we done other things that took time along the way? Yes. But I've got to balance things you can't see, and ensure everyone keeps getting a paycheck. It's possible I'm prioritizing wrong, though, and that's why these forums are helpful -- you can tell me when things are being done in the wrong order.
In this case, the developer who spoke up and said he knows how to fix this particular thing you're pointing out is the same developer who was recently leading Lion-related bug fixes. He has also been looking into getting the Mac version to 64-bits (there's another forum thread where a user is tearing us to bits over our failure to be 64-bit), but that had been put on hold so he could help get notes, highlighting, and favorites syncing ready for iOS. (See yet another thread, and my inbox, where it's being pointed out that we're complete idiots to not have notes and highlighting on iOS. In fact, Thursday night I was on the phone in an airport trying to talk down a user who hosts a national radio show from making our lack of iOS notes and highlighting the centerpiece of an on-air denunciation of our software. I think he believes that desktop software is "over" and that all our efforts should be focused on mobile functionality. And our lack of notes/highlighting there is inexcusable. Do I even use the mobile app? Do I realize how flawed it is?)
(Ironically, the answer is 'yes.' But _my_ pet flaw there is occasional problems with Bible Reading Plan sync. That annoys me most, but can't/shouldn't be fixed until we roll out Sync v2, which is now in testing in 4.5 Beta. Using more developers.)
Are these excuses? Yes. Am I looking for sympathy? No. I have high-class problems -- not being able to hire enough people in this economy is a good indicator, not a bad one. Having users who like the software so much that they're enraged (really -- you should see my email!) when things aren't right is an awesome problem. I appreciate the passion.
I'm just trying to explain things.
I can't go chat with the dev team today, since I'm still traveling. But I've asked them by email to look into this particular issue. Just please don't tell the people waiting for notes and highlighting on iOS, or a 64-bit Mac app. :-)
-- Bob
http://www.logos.com/about/careers
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Bob,
Thank you for your tempered and honest response. I love Logos 4 Mac, and I look forward to continued improvements. You and your team will be in my prayers.
C Devin
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Danged if I didn't Belly laugh!
Good response Bob, well done indeed.
Just knowing someone can look into a few specifics that are causing fatal crashes is very helpful.
I think this thread is about just that, just needing some help being able to work and, most of us are trying to help find solutions, not "just" report problems.
Traveling Mercies,
Rusty+
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On that note, for Developers/troubleshooters: Tried word search query with KJV also.
Results: Query success but with processors running at 130 percent, ram used=1 gig, video ram use stable.
Yes to spinning beach-balls, screen frozen for bits of time ( until query results all found and loaded.
Then "scrolling none functional for most part, Scroll Tab Does work.
When clicking on details, information comes up in starts and fits, out of sync a bit.
When trying to close search query - Logos crashes with crash report screen to follow.
Results:
Esv most crash prone
NASB/KJV will load query results, but Logos struggles and crashes when closing search pane
Extremely high processor usage for query, uses approx. 1 gig ram for search, scrolling non-functional for most part, scroll tab IS functional.
Video card on macbook alum. 5.1 does not seem to take a hard hit/ ram usage for card is stable.
Osx lion , Logos SR5 latest.
Macbook 5.1- 4 gig ram
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Peace, Bob! *smile*
I praise our Wonderful and Gracious God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ!
Through the Word and the Power of the Holy Spirit .... He has done a marvelous job on his servant Bob Pritchett.
Someone has said that it takes a bit longer to do the impossible! Meanwhile, you maintain your wonderful sense of humour! *smile*
Be assured! .... I believe many, many Logos Users do pray for you personally and for your family and for your team and for Logos Bible Software in general.
We most certainly do not doubt the power and efficacy of prayer, do we? *smile*
Psalm 65:5
Philippians 4: 4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........
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MJD said:
I think the public forum is a great place to address the company/proprietor with the question if the user so chooses. I also think Bob, can choose to answer or not choose to answer the user. Because, someone tells the proprietor there is a problem in an open format, this does not mean he/she is trying to embarrass them.
I guess it depends on your goal. If you want attention from folk who can't do anything to solve the problem, post away. If you want a quick resolution, try Matthew 18:15
MJD said:It is very typical on the forum, to have a "take side" mentality, rather than a "take issue" of the problem.
I know some of us act like we have special powers but the truth is nobody but the people with the little blue
"Logos logos" 
(looks funny 2x [:D]) have any ability to do anything about bugs in the software. "Logos logos"
HeeHee. [I]
)_________(
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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What these two threads have meant to me.
To Bob, Logos and Forum Posters:
This thread hit home for me as it expressed in some ways my own very real frustrations.
Its not about being passionate about Logos , Macs or anything other than The Kingdom of God and His People.
After doing all the things recommended , the videos, the wikis, the tweaks, the advice from the forums, the calls to technical support, one does get frustrated by still not being able to "Do Their Work".
Things like this software are not toys for me, not cool deals or anything other than what they really are: The Tools Of My Trade.
A cabinet maker cannot make proper cabinets without proper tools, his work will only be as good as his tools and his attention to the quality of his work, his craft.
"Good enough", cannot really be part of the vocabulary of a true craftsman, only thinking of doing the very best one can, will do for one who truly cares about his work.
Software of this type is one of the tools in my toolbox, but as one who has worked as a craftsman for much of my life, I can tell you that tools that are broken, or that break often, are soon no longer part of my toolbox, as with any craftsman- just ask them.
One cannot make a living as a craftsman with tools that are unreliable.
We should not and, indeed cannot, take the study of God's Word and the Ministries He has given us as something less than the highest of positions and responsibilities, therefore, we must use good tools and, use them with craftsmanship , wisely, paying attention to details, giving our best, our very best.
Thats why this thread and , the other like it, is important, at least to me.
It mirrored my own frustrations that "This Tool" may well not belong in my toolbox as it is highly unreliable and prone to breakage just when I need it to perform well in my hands.
It mirrored my frustrations that perhaps people were not hearing us say: this is what is BROKEN, we need it fixed so we can continue to work.
I do not work for Logos, They have not asked my Advice, but if asked, my Pastoral response would be the Biblical one. Take care of your foundational issues first, then build on it.
Take care of the code, then worry about the bells and whistles.
Yes people want every feature set under the sun and for every platform there is and, where there is significant market share, Bob and LOGOS have to pay attention, just part of business.
But if the tools you sell do not work well,,,
The threads were important to me because it seemed, the issues of crashes, broken things, menus not working, scrolling stuck seemed to be falling on deaf ears and being made to feel like we were asking too much.
If the tools in my toolbox will not work in my hands, do the job they were purchased for, they do not take up room in my toolbox for long.
I thank Bob for his response, know it is difficult in his position and appreciate him getting the developers looking in on this.
I am thankful for Stuart for bringing this to Bob's attention.
Blessings all.
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Stuart Robertson said:
Judging men's hearts is always fun, no doubt.
Understand that I cannot judge your motives.That is why I used the word "normally" in my post. However, I can see that others would logically conclude that I had questioned your motives. For that, I do ask that you accept my apology.
Still believe that a private email would have been preferable. Others may have a different opinion (As shown by a post following yours).
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Chris Roberts said:
I stated a while back that I wish the Mac team would take a break from implementing new features and would focus for a while on fixing existing features. I want to see all the shiny new toys in the Mac version, but even more, I want to see all the current toys working with elegance and polish.
Agreed Completely
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Jack Caviness said:
For that, I do ask that you accept my apology.
:-) No offence taken, but thank you for the apology.
Jack Caviness said:Still believe that a private email would have been preferable.
I agree (in this case, and now that I know that a "direct line" to Bob exists).
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Hi Bob,
Thank you for your candid and open response. I appreciate your willingness to answer the questions posed and issues raised.
Your comments seem to indicate that Logos resources are spread very thin. And this makes me wonder about the what the future might hold. Perhaps more focus and less scope would improve things?
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Fr. Charles R. Matheny said:
Software of this type is one of the tools in my toolbox, but as one who has worked as a craftsman for much of my life, I can tell you that tools that are broken, or that break often, are soon no longer part of my toolbox, as with any craftsman- just ask them.
Very true. My Craftsman framing hammer has been with me 3 years longer than my wife
of 30 years. And it helped me build 54 houses. I was also a tool-setter
for Saginaw Steering gear (GM-Delphi) and vouch that good drill bits
& milling tools cost upwards of $250 each. All of my electrical tools are Klein. It DOES matter what quality of tools you have to work with. But that is precisely why Logos is the main tool in my Bible study toolbox.I have 13 children who are quite different from each other. I know which one to call on for excellent photography. I know which one to call on for quality nursing care. I know which can cook, play piano or flute. I know which son to call on for lifting muscles. I know which one can quote me whole books of the Bible. A good craftsman knows which tool to reach for to get a job done right. Logos works well for the way I use it. I hope you find enough value to keep it in your toolbox, even if you have to add a couple other tools for your specialized needs. I really believe Bob cares and is able to hone Logos.
"Logos logos"
HeeHee. [I]
)_________( I still think it is cute, "Logos logos"
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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