How Long Before Mac Developers Will be Allowed to Catch Up to Windows version?

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J.R. Miller | Forum Activity | Posted: Sun, Oct 30 2011 9:49 AM

I am writing in hopes that Logos will start to give some serious attention to slow down adding new features and try to get the existing ones working properly.

For a long time, I have reported that some of the most basic functions just don't work.

For example, I cannot even organize the sub-folders in Favorites to organize them.  Of course, this is easily done in the Windows version, but Mac seems unable to find the time to fix this.

Even more significant is that the Passage List feature is virtually useless for teaching because section titles are missing and do not appear in the Mac version (as far as I know, the Windows version does work properly).  Why won't Logos allow developers to prioritize the fixing of critical regressions?

There is a long list of items that are simply inferior on the Mac version... see here.  The current list includes

Again, maybe if enough users show an interest, Logos will begin to put a genuine effort to bringing the Mac version up to par with the Windows version.

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Patrick S. | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Oct 30 2011 9:56 AM

Hi Joe - interesting/brave post. Just curious... you're still working for Logos? Cool

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John Fidel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Oct 30 2011 10:12 AM

Joe,

I appreciate your questioning the progress on L4 Mac disparity with L4 Win. Could Logos 4.4 address this? As a Logos employee, you may be able to find out. Realizing priorities, I think at this point, many L4 Mac users would be willing to fall one step behind L4 Win in terms of new features, just to have all the existing differences properly addressed. Most disappointments with L4 Mac in the forums generally fall within this area.

Thanks for addressing this. You have my support in this endeavor.

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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Oct 30 2011 10:41 AM

John Fidel:
Could Logos 4.4 address this?

There will not be a 4.4 release. Currently 4.5 is in beta.

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Todd Phillips | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Oct 30 2011 12:58 PM

Joe Miller:
try to get the existing ones working properly.

Yes

Joe Miller:
There is a long list of items that are simply inferior on the Mac version... see here.

This is why I hesitate to promote Logos to my Mac-using friends.

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Oct 30 2011 3:12 PM

Joe Miller:
For example, I cannot even organize the sub-folders in Favorites to organize them.  Of course, this is easily done in the Windows version, but Mac seems unable to find the time to fix this.

Logos 4.5 Beta 4 on Windows allows sub-folders in Favorites to be arranged by dragging and dropping while Logos 4.5 Beta 4 on Mac needs a workaround:

  • Prefix book name with Logos internal number (e.g. 61 Matthew, 64 John, ...), then right click on 61 Matthew => Sort by name.
  • Create new folder, then drag sub-folders to new folder one at a time in desired order
  • Use Logos 4 Windows to arrange sub-folders, then sync to Logos 4 Mac.

Updated wiki Feature Parity – Mac needs many improvements (added link to this thread).

Joe Miller:
Again, maybe if enough users show an interest, Logos will begin to put a genuine effort to bringing the Mac version up to par with the Windows version.

Logos User Voice voting is showing Logos 4 Mac Enhancements more desired than all Feature Parity suggestions.  Also included couple more suggestions mentioned in thread => Logos 4 Mac Consensus for Improvement Priorities

# 19 => Logos 4 Mac Enhancements  with 174 votes, a possible follow-up to Suggestion for something special for the L4 Mac

# 39 => Improve Logos 4 Mac Feature Parity with PC  with 64 votes

# 47 => Floating window layouts with 54 votes

# 71 => Improve Logos 4 Mac Note Positioning  with 25 votes

# 77 => Improve Logos 4 Menu Responsiveness  with 23 votes

# 100 => Logos 4 Mac Program Scaling and Font Sliders  with 13 votes

# 193 => Please add Logos 4 Program Settings  with 4 votes

Note: Logos User Voice currently has 409 suggestions open for voting.

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tjebme | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Oct 30 2011 4:42 PM

YesYes

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Fr. Charles R. Matheny | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Oct 30 2011 4:46 PM

A poster on one of the other threads made a good point:

Mac's are still a very small part of Logos Sales, thus, as such a small marketshare footprint, I doubt we are going to see much improvement in the speed of changes.

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John Fidel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Oct 30 2011 5:49 PM

Rusty,

You have not been using Logos very long I do not believe. My impression, having used the software for a long time (the early 90's), is that they will get these things fixed and up to speed sooner rather than later. They have moved L4 Mac along at a good pace since the Alpha. I have confidence in the those programing and directing the efforts of the company.

 Please do not take my comments as condescending, as that is not my intent. You have a right to your opinion as I do mine.

 

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Fr. Charles R. Matheny | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Oct 30 2011 5:57 PM

I was just just commenting the gentleman on the other thread had a good comment on marketshare and how Logos must take care of things accordingly.

They do have to make sure they take care of the majority of the customer base first, just logical.

Was not being negative, just thinking that whatever the repair/update schedule is currently, may well be what is seen for the near future.

Macs/Osx/Ios are not the primary source of revenue for Logos.

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Oct 30 2011 7:04 PM

Fr. Charles R. Matheny:
Macs/Osx/Ios are not the primary source of revenue for Logos.

It isn't a bad idea to assume that revenue generating would score high priority in a for-profit company. (And as you correctly pointed out previously, Logos is a for-profit company.) The part of your assumption I diverge from is I believe development for the Mac platform will score a high priority based on possible future revenue.

I just got a Mac a few weeks ago and am just getting in to Logos 4 Mac. I am quickly learning parity between the Windows and Mac OS programs has not yet been achieved. I can personally fall back on Logos 4 Windows. But a Mac-only user may buy a nice base package, thinking all features his Windows-using fellow pastor friend has been raving about will be fully functional on his Mac. That user may not have a Windows machine to fall back on.

I am not blaming Logos for technical issues that pop up after the software has been released. We have seen conflicts with IE8, .Net Framework updates, delayed Hebrew speech due to Microsoft, and maybe issues with Mac OS X 10.7.  If Logos can quickly handle these issues when they pop up and keep moving toward parity with the Windows version they can realize expanding profits with the expanding user base. There are many Mac only users who will abstain from buying into Logos until they see this has become reality.

I am already happy with Libronix 3, Logos 4 Windows, and Logos 4 Mac. I am thrilled with the resources they already publish. I am thrilled with what the future holds for resources. I suspect I will love the iOS & Android apps whenever I get one of those devices.

It is not crazy to avoid buying software that won't work for me, even when a hundred people tell me I should buy it. It is also not sane to dump a software that works for me just because it does not work for the other guy's needs.  I wonder sometimes if Logos feels like Jacob did when he found himself married to two sisters who both wanted his exclusive attention. Genesis 29:16-30  Tongue Tied

 

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DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Oct 30 2011 7:23 PM

Fr Charles ... I wouldn't assume the group with the greater customer share gets the large marjority of the support.

In Logos case, they aced a market they already pretty much owned (Windows), but stumbled (a little?) on the market that offers future expansion (Mac).

As a previous executive, that'd hurt.

And given Bob's drive and early work in Windows, I'd bet he's considerably more frustrated than you might be, since achieving multi-platform success would certainly be a corporate coup (and good for you too!).

 

"God will save his fallen angels and their broken wings He'll mend."

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MJD | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Oct 30 2011 7:43 PM

Patrick S.:

Hi Joe - interesting/brave post. Just curious... you're still working for Logos? Cool

I find this very suspicious to have an employee post a comment like this...Hmm

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Fr. Charles R. Matheny | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Oct 30 2011 8:07 PM

Agreed MJD.

I might add: I find it "odd" to hear a company say they cannot "find" osx software designers that are willing to relocate. This does not seem to be a problem for other Osx based companies, and, I know of many that do not even require moving to work with code.

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Oct 30 2011 8:20 PM

MJD:
Patrick S.:
Hi Joe - interesting/brave post. Just curious... you're still working for Logos? Cool
I find this very suspicious to have an employee post a comment like this...Hmm

I don't.      I think I know Joe well enough to say he would post this with or without the Logos logo, an MVP star, or any designation at all. He is not shy to speak and he is passionate about church planting. (Yeah, he loves Logos too.)

added: I am also aware of several MVPs who have publicly said some rather surprising things. And a few incidents of honest acknowledgement by Logos employees concerning bugs and how they will deal with them, or why a fix will be delayed. At least there is dialogue and some progress.

 

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Oct 30 2011 8:37 PM

Fr. Charles R. Matheny:
Agreed MJD. I might add: I find it "odd" to hear a company say they cannot "find" osx software designers that are willing to relocate. This does not seem to be a problem for other Osx based companies, and, I know of many that do not even require moving to work with code.

That is actually part of the problem. There are quite a few people who are willing to telecommute. Logos specifically states that all employment positions require moving to Bellingham (unless the job is regional.)

Most companies that lead their fields do so because they will only hire the cream of the crop. The pharmaceutical companies, engineering & architectural firms, chemical and aerospace industries send out "head-hunters" to recruit the top dozen students from the top dozen universities. (They will also try to lure them away from other companies with lucrative offers.) The rest of the graduating classes must go searching for jobs.  Logos is the leading Bible software company and not only requires software engineering expertise, but knowledge of Greek, Hebrew, Bible, ministry, theology, marketing and multiple linguistic abilities. They also require some experience in the field the applicant is applying for. It must be difficult to find knowledge and experience in a qualified applicant who is able to pick up and move to Bellingham without disrupting an established family life. I think we will all agree it is desirable for Logos to hire the cream of the crop. That narrows the field considerably.

 

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Mike S. | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Oct 30 2011 8:45 PM

The continued lack of "catch-up" for the mac version leads me to believe Logos thinks it is "good enough" to win the sale (a very windows/microsoft way of thinking).

Logos should be assured that they will slowly bleed out that revenue and see a continued drop in sales and market share. I've already stopped using Logos for anything but "go to" resources that are only found in Logos. I'm spending my money elsewhere because I no longer trust that:

a. Logos is committed to attaining key feature parity with the mac version
b. Logos is committed to the OS/IOS platform long term

I'm guessing I'm not the only one. 

I totally get that it's hard to get "mac" developers to relocate to a part of the country where MS is deeply rooted and dominant. No shocker there; for the most part you're either going to find dabblers or inexperienced people who want to build up their resume. There's typically a few ways around this: first, build a satellite office in an area where it's much easier to hire the skill set and invest in telepresence & collaborative tools/methods (HUGE change for Logos, not likely, nor possibly wise),  two, pay a steep premium to get the same experience/level of skill you have for other platforms and irritate your loyal dev team (creates all kinds of other problems), and finally... go slow, build as you are able and hope you don't fall too far behind (I didn't forget the contractor approach, just never works with something as monolithic and fast-moving as Logos, they learned that the hard way).

Clearly they've chosen the "slow and steady wins the race" approach. A wise business decision, but maybe not the best for those of us stubborn mac users. 

Bye for now!

 

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Oct 30 2011 9:09 PM

Mike S.:
I'm spending my money elsewhere because I no longer trust that: a. Logos is committed to attaining key feature parity with the mac version b. Logos is committed to the OS/IOS platform long term

I'm betting Logos arrives at true feature parity before the "other guys" arrive at equivalent resource libraries.

My main interest in Logos is breadth first, then depth. If others' interest lie in "only" original languages or a narrow specialty, I understand the urgency for finessing the program features first.

 

 

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Mike S. | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Oct 30 2011 9:21 PM

Super Tramp:
My main interest in Logos is breadth first, then depth. If others' interest lie in "only" original languages or a narrow specialty, I understand the urgency for finessing the program features first.

My main interest in studying the Word. Things like the Passage List (enabling me to view discontinuous sections of the bible), Compare Verses and managing multiple layouts are the kind of "depth" (what I'd call "basics").  

I've been tool they are "coming", but have never been delivered on. I like the breadth of resources, but it's a basic search/lookup tool until I can do what I call "the basics" 

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Oct 30 2011 9:58 PM

Mike S.:
I've been tool they are "coming", but have never been delivered on.

I'm sorry you don't have it yet. I won't bother suggesting you switch to Windows. Zip it!

I still think Logos will keep pursuing the Mac market. There are just too many people using Macs for Logos not to.

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