How Long Before Mac Developers Will be Allowed to Catch Up to Windows version?

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DominicM | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Oct 30 2011 10:31 PM

If I remember correctly the code is the same, but theres an extra layer between the code and the GUI with the macs, I remember reading that this is where the issues lie, where as with windows it just works, with the macs you need to take a hammer to it to make it fit..

I see greater parity with each release, but given how late Logos were with Logos 1 for Mac, I think the Progress on L4Mac is awesome.. (but I know you want it all fixed now) I would rather wait and have it right than have a bad version

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Oct 30 2011 11:16 PM

DominicM:
I see greater parity with each release, but given how late Logos were with Logos 1 for Mac, I think the Progress on L4Mac is awesome.. (but I know you want it all fixed now) I would rather wait and have it right than have a bad version

Remember waiting many, many months on Logos 1 for Mac.  Concur Logos 4 Mac progress has been awesome.  Current stable Logos 4.3 SR-6 and Logos 4.5 Beta 4 have lots more features than Logos 1 for Mac.

DominicM:
If I remember correctly the code is the same, but theres an extra layer between the code and the GUI with the macs, I remember reading that this is where the issues lie, where as with windows it just works, with the macs you need to take a hammer to it to make it fit.

Logos 4 code base is shared on Mac and PC.  Logos 4 PC uses .Net Framework 3.5 to run code with Windows Presentation Foundation (WPF) for User Interaction.  Logos 4 Mac uses Mono (open source implementation of .Net Framework) to run code with Objective-C User Interface on Mac.  The Mono project did not attempt WPF cross platform port.  Noticed Xamarin follow-on to Mono published a release in August (primarily OS X Lion bug fixes); now looking for mono runtime programmers.  Several feature parity items need Mac user interface coding to access shared code base capabilities.  Sharing code does allow information sync cross platform that typically works.

Thankful for option to run Logos 4 Windows on Intel Mac with usable (sometimes faster) performance).  WIki Logos 4 Mac => Need Logos 4 PC feature? includes links and tips.  If running Windows to enable Logos 4 Windows use on Mac, can choose not to install lots of software in Windows virtual machine (low risk for malware infection since not looking at email nor web browsing).

Keep Smiling Smile

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J.R. Miller | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Oct 31 2011 8:38 AM

Patrick S.:
Hi Joe - interesting/brave post. Just curious... you're still working for Logos? Cool
I no longer work for Logos and I had not realized my Logos badge was not removed yet.

I am, however, doing regional training independently in Southern California. The problems on the current state of the software make it very difficult to demonstrate and train Logos using my Mac.  The software works fine for my personal study because I can work around the numerous bugs, regressions, and slowness, but in its current state the Mac version is an inferior product for using in training situations.  As a full time Mac user, I would like to see this rectified.

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J.R. Miller | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Oct 31 2011 8:38 AM

[duplicate post deleted]

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J.R. Miller | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Oct 31 2011 8:42 AM

John Fidel:
As a Logos employee, you may be able to find out.
I submit bug reports like everyone else and have no idea regarding timetable.  The three issues I pointed out in my first post are ones I have reported over many many many cycles and all I am told is, "they are known issues and are on the list."  New features get added, but from my perspective little effort is put into making the existing ones work properly

.

John Fidel:
Thanks for addressing this. You have my support in this endeavor.
I am in the same boat as everyone else... a long time user for almost 18 years that wants the software to work for me and not against me Yes

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Patrick S. | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Oct 31 2011 12:32 PM

Joe Miller:

Patrick S.:
Hi Joe - interesting/brave post. Just curious... you're still working for Logos? Cool

I no longer work for Logos and I had not realized my Logos badge was not removed yet.

Is now I see Wink

Joe Miller:

As a full time Mac user, I would like to see this rectified.

Amen brother! Yes

"I want to know all God's thoughts; the rest are just details." - Albert Einstein

Posts 251
Pastor James | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Oct 31 2011 6:19 PM

Super Tramp:

Fr. Charles R. Matheny:
Macs/Osx/Ios are not the primary source of revenue for Logos.

It isn't a bad idea to assume that revenue generating would score high priority in a for-profit company. (And as you correctly pointed out previously, Logos is a for-profit company.) The part of your assumption I diverge from is I believe development for the Mac platform will score a high priority based on possible future revenue.

I just got a Mac a few weeks ago and am just getting in to Logos 4 Mac. I am quickly learning parity between the Windows and Mac OS programs has not yet been achieved. I can personally fall back on Logos 4 Windows. But a Mac-only user may buy a nice base package, thinking all features his Windows-using fellow pastor friend has been raving about will be fully functional on his Mac. That user may not have a Windows machine to fall back on.

I am not blaming Logos for technical issues that pop up after the software has been released. We have seen conflicts with IE8, .Net Framework updates, delayed Hebrew speech due to Microsoft, and maybe issues with Mac OS X 10.7.  If Logos can quickly handle these issues when they pop up and keep moving toward parity with the Windows version they can realize expanding profits with the expanding user base. There are many Mac only users who will abstain from buying into Logos until they see this has become reality.

I am already happy with Libronix 3, Logos 4 Windows, and Logos 4 Mac. I am thrilled with the resources they already publish. I am thrilled with what the future holds for resources. I suspect I will love the iOS & Android apps whenever I get one of those devices.

It is not crazy to avoid buying software that won't work for me, even when a hundred people tell me I should buy it. It is also not sane to dump a software that works for me just because it does not work for the other guy's needs.  I wonder sometimes if Logos feels like Jacob did when he found himself married to two sisters who both wanted his exclusive attention. Genesis 29:16-30  Tongue Tied

 

So, Windows is the sister that LOGOS was tricked into marrying first, and MAC is the one LOGOS truly loves Yes

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Bob Pritchett | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Oct 31 2011 7:03 PM

Sigh.

There's no conspiracy here. Yes, we make more money from Windows sales. But Mac is growing fast, and that may flip sometime in the near future. We did, however, have about 17 years head-start on the Windows side. So unless we make the Mac team 3-4 times larger than the Windows team, it'll be a bit behind.

To say we're ignoring the Mac, or aren't committed to the platform, is simply silly. Our iOS platform support is excellent and keeps advancing; we don't even have a Windows Phone version. And Proclaim (which is the first app we wrote that didn't have 17 years of Windows history already) has been in near lock-step parity all along the way.

For what it's worth, the client-side Mac team is (at my last inquiry) larger than the Windows team.

Unfortunately, according to the developers -- including the Mac devs! -- coding on the Mac is much more difficult than on Windows. (If you disagree, I'm sorry. I'm not trying to pick a fight, I'm just reporting what I'm told, and have experienced.) The tools are not as mature and we don't have access to all the same platform features. So a feature like "Program Scaling" is a pain. This is a feature we never had in Logos 3, and only put in Logos 4 for Windows because WPF (the Windows display platform) basically gave it to us for free. It's just a couple of lines of code, because WPF handles it all. On the Mac is much more complicated, because the Mac display system doesn't handle "global scaling" the same way.

This is a consequence of doing the Mac version after Windows. If we'd started dual platform this feature would have been trivial to have in perfect parity: we would not have chosen to implement it on either platform. :-)

(In the same way, we used a data grid control on Windows that wasn't available on the Mac, where many features have needed a lot more code to re-create that functionality. This is one of the few third-party components we've used, but it is a significant piece of code. The Mac simply doesn't have the components / dev-tools infrastructure that Windows does.)

We're trying hard. We are re-writing some components to be cross-platform, instead of depending on underlying OS implementations that work differently. We are planning to open a satellite development office near Phoenix, AZ in the next few months to get access to a different and larger labor pool.

And I'll commit right here and now to hire the next 5 qualified Mac developers you send my way. :-)

Hmm... what about a new forum rule, where you can't complain about the Mac port until you have forwarded a development candidate? Doesn't everybody know at least one software developer? One smart person who could study software development?

-- Bob

PS Does it show my commitment that I'm reading the Steve Jobs biography? 

 

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Oct 31 2011 7:28 PM

Bob Pritchett:
PS Does it show my commitment that I'm reading the Steve Jobs biography? 

This is sooooooo tempting ... I give in  ... Does it also mean we can expect more Buddhist resources?Big Smile

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Fr. Charles R. Matheny | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Oct 31 2011 7:51 PM

Dear Bob: Reading the biography means different things to different people, however, from a leaders position and, one in your field, I would think there are many reasons to read the book, many insights to be gained, ideas to think on, some to reject etc.

Next: I would well imagine Osx would be challenging for people used to writing code for windows and used to windows tools.

I have also heard from many who have written primarily from Osx who find writing for windows and using those tolls, to be very frustrating.

Point: Many contemplatives will tell you that whatever spiritual discipline one begin's in will probably remain their main point of reference all their life. Thus is one began Benedictine, that discipline will be part of their life for their whole life, if one began Celtic, same thing, so forth and so on.

I tend to think this is probably true with code as well, the things people cut their teeth in, the one they get comfortable with, the one they "think" spatially, is the one that they are most proficient in.

There are several companies I know of that the code writers there speak of windows code and the tools being slow, complicated and a bit of a pain.

I also know many companies that write for Osx do so as proficiently as any windows based company writes code.

It is probably very difficult having both and trying to have both work together to try and do things that are best for both codes- In that, I certainly appreciate the difficulty you and your staff face.

iOS seems to be working well for you/us, mine has not crashed even once, read on it daily, nightly and, enjoy it. The code stays out of the way, the device disappears into the work/reading I am doing- well done.

Sadly, I can get more work done on my iOS devices with Logos, than I can my Mac.

I hope you find the code writers you need.

I hope your writers will concentrate on getting what you have working with stability , before moving on to more additions.

In my opinion, it is still better to work on one thing, do it well, finish it, then move to the next, than it is to try too many things at once.   But of course, that's just my opinion-smile.

Lastly, I for one appreciate your interaction here ( and your sense of humor ), it does help knowing someone in/with authority is at least reading, taking in the different situations, getting the "snapshots" that Forums provide of the larger picture.

Please know that, contrary to some thinking, I do not believe my posts or those of others are intended as simply griping, complaining , though it may well seem as such.

Mine are simply the frustrations of a small Parish Pastor with limited financial resources, trying to make the best use of the funds he can muster. 

Thanks again for your interaction, it has not fixed the crashing-smile- but it is nice to know you care enough to look in on the situation.

Grace and Peace,

Rusty+

 

Posts 388
MJD | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Oct 31 2011 8:14 PM

Super Tramp:

MJD:
Patrick S.:
Hi Joe - interesting/brave post. Just curious... you're still working for Logos? Cool
I find this very suspicious to have an employee post a comment like this...Hmm

I don't.      I think I know Joe well enough to say he would post this with or without the Logos logo, an MVP star, or any designation at all. He is not shy to speak and he is passionate about church planting. (Yeah, he loves Logos too.)

 

Super Tramp... My suspicions were confirmed...Yes  Joe no longer works for the company!

 

Posts 388
MJD | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Oct 31 2011 8:26 PM

Bob Pritchett:
To say we're ignoring the Mac, or aren't committed to the platform, is simply silly. Our iOS platform support is excellent and keeps advancing; we don't even have a Windows Phone version. And Proclaim (which is the first app we wrote that didn't have 17 years of Windows history already) has been in near lock-step parity all along the way.

 

Bob,

You opened this discussion up by mentioning Proclaim...

Why would you use valuable Mac programersConfused, which you say are almost impossible to find on developing a new software (i.e. Proclaim) when you don't have all of the bugsSnail worked out of the Mac L4 platform?

Why did you not concentrate your efforts to complete one thing before you started another?

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Oct 31 2011 8:31 PM

MJD:
Super Tramp:
MJD:
Patrick S.:
Hi Joe - interesting/brave post. Just curious... you're still working for Logos? Cool
I find this very suspicious to have an employee post a comment like this...Hmm
I don't.      I think I know Joe well enough to say he would post this with or without the Logos logo, an MVP star, or any designation at all. He is not shy to speak and he is passionate about church planting. (Yeah, he loves Logos too.)
Super Tramp... My suspicions were confirmed...Yes  Joe no longer works for the company!

I thought you were implying Joe Miller was setting up a forthcoming Logos statement or decision.

I revel in the fact I was correct in saying Joe would have said that no matter what his relationship with Logos. (His character and personality show through prominently on his web site, Twitter tweets, and many forum posts.)

 

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Oct 31 2011 8:38 PM

MJD:
Why would you use valuable Mac programersConfused, which you say are almost impossible to find on developing a new software (i.e. Proclaim) when you don't have all of the bugsSnail worked out of the Mac L4 platform?

You must have missed my analogy of Spring cleaning. If you are waiting on events beyond your control to fall in place on one project, it does not mean progress in other areas should not be attempted.

MJD:
Why did you not concentrate your efforts to complete one thing before you started another?

I'm not convinced the CEO owes any explanation or apologies for being a multi-tasking creative genius. He has certainly taken Logos a lot further than any of us could.

 

 

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Oct 31 2011 10:17 PM

Fr. Charles R. Matheny:
I tend to think this is probably true with code as well, the things people cut their teeth in, the one they get comfortable with, the one they "think" spatially, is the one that they are most proficient in.

However, it is also true that particular platforms have particular strengths and weaknesses. I once worked on a very obscure computer  made by Reality. One requirement for being trained on the equipment was that you had experience on something other than IBM. The truth is that the logical patterns an excellent programmer has at their disposal are platform independent. The tools they have to implement that pattern is a major element in the speed with which a feature can be developed. Competent programmers are easy to come by; if you want to spread into truly new solutions you need superb programmers - and they can be hard to find.

My favorite hire - in academic administrative computing on Unisys and COBOL, I hired a programmer whose experience was entirely on CAT scan equipment in C+. He was the key in our first web based administrative application on Linux in Java. The remainder of the team? Unisys-COBOL, IBM-COBOL, track star with no experience and self-taught C+. The project came in on time and within budget. Moral: When Bob says it is partially the tools, believe him. Who knows - when he's out of school I might recommend my grandson to Bob. My grandson is already helping with a web "front end" to Logos.Big Smile

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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David Mitchell | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 1 2011 8:56 AM

MJ. Smith:
Who knows - when he's out of school I might recommend my grandson to Bob. My grandson is already helping with a web "front end" to Logos.Big Smile

Why would you wait for him to finish school? Working at Logos provides an excellent education, and it pays better, too. Big Smile

David Mitchell
Development Lead
Faithlife

Posts 388
MJD | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 1 2011 1:03 PM

Super Tramp:

MJD:
Why did you not concentrate your efforts to complete one thing before you started another?

I'm not convinced the CEO owes any explanation or apologies for being a multi-tasking creative genius. He has certainly taken Logos a lot further than any of us could.

This question was asked specifically to Bob.

I am not sure why you (Super Tramp) answered a question that was directed to Bob.Hmm

Secondly, I wasn't trying to convince you.  This was directed towards Bob, and I would love hear Bob's response on why resources were used on Proclaim versus Logos 4 (Mac), when there is so many shortcomings as described by Joe a recent employee of Logos (Joe's post has caused me serious concern).  Before a new program (Proclaim) was launched.

Thirdly, speak for yourself in regards to how far "any of us could" have done anything.  I am sure there are many mega talented people on this forum, that have great abilities, please don't cut them short with your mere assumptions!

Lastly,

I know Bob is talented, smart, etc., etc., what I would like to know is why a new project was started at Logos prior to fixing an existing project.  There are limited resources, and to allocate Mac Developers to Proclaim, while lacking developers for Logos 4 repairs causes me concerns???

I will wait patiently wait to hear from Bob.  Thank You.

 

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 1 2011 4:09 PM

MJD:
I am not sure why you (Super Tramp) answered a question that was directed to Bob.Hmm

I have also been known to call the police when a domestic dispute spills out into the street, or call the dog pound when a yappy Chihuahua bites school kids walking home. 

MJD:
why resources were used on Proclaim versus Logos 4 (Mac),

You are assuming the shortfall is with Logos resources, while Bob's posts clearly state their is a shortage in qualified applicants. Would you suggest Bob hire new people who can not accomplish the job? Or maybe reassign some of the sales staff, or Windows crew to write Mac code? Bottom line is, Bob spends more of Logos' money every day than your lifetime investment in Logos. I think he can be trusted with these decisions.

MJD:
Thirdly, speak for yourself in regards to how far "any of us could" have done anything.  I am sure there are many mega talented people on this forum, that have great abilities, please don't cut them short with your mere assumptions!

Oh, there a lot of people who claim they can do something.  A few may not be exaggerating.  The only person that matters is the one who actually does something. Matthew 21:28-32

MJD:
I will wait patiently wait to hear from Bob.  Thank You.

You can reach him quicker by sending your questions directly to him at Bob@Logos.com  I've found it helps a lot to dial the correct phone number when you want to communicate with someone. The days of "party lines" are long past. If you tried direct communication with Bob already and you are getting no answer, Bob is either real busy running the world's best Bible software company, or he could just be ignoring you.  Surprise

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MJD | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 1 2011 4:36 PM

 

MJD:
I am not sure why you (Super Tramp) answered a question that was directed to Bob.Hmm

I have also been known to call the police when a domestic dispute spills out into the street, or call the dog pound when a yappy Chihuahua bites school kids walking home. 

[/quote]

You make no sense, there is no correlation.

Super Tramp:
Super Tramp:

[quote user="MJD"]why resources were used on Proclaim versus Logos 4 (Mac),

You are assuming the shortfall is with Logos resources, while Bob's posts clearly state their is a shortage in qualified applicants. Would you suggest Bob hire new people who can not accomplish the job? Or maybe reassign some of the sales staff, or Windows crew to write Mac code? Bottom line is, Bob spends more of Logos' money every day than your lifetime investment in Logos. I think he can be trusted with these decisions.


"resource = Mac developer"   

Do you get it, or do I need to go into further details?  I am not sure where your disconnect is?

Super Tramp:

MJD:
Thirdly, speak for yourself in regards to how far "any of us could" have done anything.  I am sure there are many mega talented people on this forum, that have great abilities, please don't cut them short with your mere assumptions!

Oh, there a lot of people who claim they can do something.  A few may not be exaggerating.  The only person that matters is the one who actually does something. Matthew 21:28-32

You were the one who spoke about the lack thereof.  Don't you get it, nobody claimed a lack of ability except you!

Super Tramp:

MJD:
I will wait patiently wait to hear from Bob.  Thank You.

You can reach him quicker by sending your questions directly to him at Bob@Logos.com  I've found it helps a lot to dial the correct phone number when you want to communicate with someone. The days of "party lines" are long past. If you tried direct communication with Bob already and you are getting no answer, Bob is either real busy running the world's best Bible software company, or he could just be ignoring you.  Surprise

This was an open forum comment -- in order to allow MANY PEOPLE to see the dialogue.  I agree, Logos is the the best Bible software company, but it still needs to get better in the Mac L4 world.  You may be right, he could be ignoring me.

 

Posts 388
MJD | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 1 2011 5:01 PM

Joe Miller:
Again, maybe if enough users show an interest, Logos will begin to put a genuine effort to bringing the Mac version up to par with the Windows version.

 

StarThis is why I addressed Bob in the forum.  Joe who is a former Logos employee asked for users to "show an interest" in order to get some resolution.

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