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Andy | Forum Activity | Posted: Tue, Nov 10 2009 2:32 AM

Please accept my apologies in advance if this is a really stupid question, but I was wondering if it was possible to use Logos 4 for arcing (something that I am trying to get my head around)?

I have tried using the visual filters to highlight prepositions, but although there is an option in the scroll down menu (when creating visual filters) it doesn't seem to do anything (there is no suffix after the @ symbol).

 I have also tried using the passage analysis tool, but it seems that word trees can only be organised around a particular word and not according to the grammar.

I was wondering if I was missing something, doing something wrong or attempting the impossible.

I upgraded from Gold to Platinum, but am still fairly new to Logos (I didn't really get beyond the basics in version 3).

I should also confess that I am a beginner in the original languages, so please go easy if I have asked something that is really silly.

I really appreciate the advice and assistance proffered elsewhere on this forum, it has made the switch to Logos 4 (with is fantastic, by the way) a lot simpler than it could have been.

 

Posts 3809
spitzerpl | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 10 2009 2:49 AM

The best way to build your search term is to build it in a morph search and then copy and paste your string into a visual filter. The drop down box that helps you build the syntax int eh visual filter is not yet implemented. For instance, to highlight prepositions in the NA27 use @P?, to highlight them in the NKJV, use @P. I used the morph search box to discover the syntax.

It was not a stupid question at all. I'm glad you asked!

Posts 4508
Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 10 2009 2:54 AM

Andrew...

You are among friends here... :) There are no dumb questions...only dumb people...

Just kidding. Surprise

 

I've seen Arcing; I wasn't incredibly thrilled like some are...I'm a "Kellogg Stick Diagram" person...or a "Mounce type" diagrammer...but Arcing just didn't thrill me...sorry.

As far as I know...they haven't even discussed it. Their sentence diagrams are coming back in the near future though...

As far as the visual filters go...you have to make sure that you're in a "morph" mode...when you click "visual filters" you could still be in a bible filter mode, or a basic filter mode...so make sure...

See the pic...this should explain it.

 

Robert Pavich

For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__

Posts 3809
spitzerpl | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 10 2009 3:02 AM

Robert Pavich:
There are no dumb questions...only dumb people...

HEY! I resemble that remark!

Posts 2277
Andy | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 10 2009 11:05 AM

Ha... I am afraid that also applies to me!

I have just tried as per your kind suggestions and everything is working and I am ready to start arcing away...

Thanks very much for the assistance, it is greatly appreciated.

God Bless,

Andy

 

Posts 2912
Forum MVP
Jacob Hantla | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 10 2009 11:15 AM

There is no diagramming yet in logos 4. I hope that they give us the ability to do arcing well when they implement diagramming down the road. 

More about arcing can be found at 

Jacob Hantla
Pastor/Elder, Grace Bible Church
gbcaz.org

Posts 26140
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 10 2009 2:01 PM

Robert Pavich:
"Mounce type" diagrammer

Pardon my ignorance ... what is a Mounce diagram? I did a brief search on the web and failed to find an example ... which likely means I didn't know what I was looking for.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 418
davidphillips | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 10 2009 2:22 PM

MJ,

It's not a technical term Smile. If you have the book "Diagrammatical Analysis" in your library, that should give you a good idea of the type of diagram he's talking about. At least, I'm pretty sure that's a good example of Reed-Kellog stick diagramming. Bob can correct me if I'm wrong.

Posts 26140
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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 10 2009 2:41 PM

David B Phillips:
I'm pretty sure that's a good example of Reed-Kellog stick diagramming

Ah, Reed-Kellog diagrams I am familar with although I'm a tree-hugger when it comes to detailed diagrams. I also understand the indented (purhaps with arrows) flow diagrams and arcing. But can anyone tell me what kind of diagrams these symbols are for?

or the name / "rules" of this form?

 

 

 

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 418
davidphillips | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 10 2009 3:56 PM

MJ, as for the latter I'm not sure what name it would get.

 As for the former, the first two symbols would be used for diagramming infinitives in a stick (reed-kellog) type diagram. The rest just look like helpful connecting devices. I've never seen them used formally. The semi-circles (row 3) could be used for arcing, but I can't say that's the intention.

Posts 4508
Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 10 2009 4:15 PM

Martha,

There are (as I understand it) The Reed-Kellogg diagrams and then there is what Bill Mounce does. You can find it in a book called "Greek for the rest of us" which is for people who need to be able to follow technical commentaries, arguments and things without learning 100 Greek paradigms...

 

His method, which he calls "phrasing" goes like this; you indent words according to their function and if they modify other words..etc..it's informal but effective...

 

And you were dead in the
                            trespasses and sins
                                              in which you once walked,
                                                                         following the course of this world,
                                                                         following the prince of the power of the air,
                                                                                                    the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience—
among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh,
                                                      carrying out the desires of the body and the mind,

and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.

But God,
   being rich in mercy,
   because of the great love with which he loved us,
                                        even when we were dead in our trespasses,
made us alive together with Christ—
             by grace you have been saved—
               and raised us up with him
               and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,

 

so that

 

in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

For

by grace you have been saved
                      through faith.
                      And this is not your own doing;
                         it is the gift of God,
                          not a result of works,

so that no one may boast.

For

we are his workmanship,
                           created in Christ Jesus for good works,
                                                                           which God prepared beforehand,
                                                                            that we should walk in them.

 

Therefore

remember that at one time you
                                             Gentiles in the flesh,
                                            called “the uncircumcision” by what is called the circumcision,

which is made in the flesh by hands—

remember that you were at that time separated from Christ,
                                                                 alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and
                                                                 strangers to the covenants of promise,
                                                                 having no hope and without God in the world.

 

But

 

now in Christ Jesus
                 you who once were far off have been brought near
                                                                         by the blood of Christ.

Robert Pavich

For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__

Posts 26140
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 10 2009 5:19 PM

Thanks. This is a variant of a system I know.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 706
Russ Quinn | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 11 2009 1:37 PM

Jacob Hantla:

There is no diagramming yet in logos 4. I hope that they give us the ability to do arcing well when they implement diagramming down the road. 

More about arcing can be found at 

 

 

+1

Can highly recommend Dr. Schreiner's method.

Posts 50
Robert Lombardi | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 12 2009 7:24 AM

I'm also interesting in Arcing, I haven't tried it yet. I also saw those videos by John Piper saying that he's been using it for decades and it's been an immense help for him. If you've watched his Battling Unbelief videos it appears that he's teaching the scriptures and showing relationships between Scripture that he's learned through using the Arc method. It looks like a very powerful tool for studying Scripture. By they way, the Battling Unbelief series is incredible.

Posts 1416
Wes Saad | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 12 2009 7:40 AM

Robert Pavich:
There are no dumb questions...only dumb people...

I really wish you people would stop talking about me.

Posts 249
DHG | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 8 2010 11:20 PM

Unless I'm mistaken, arcing isn't the same as sentence diagramming; it is proposition diagramming. It would be so helpful to have both tools available in L4...

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 8 2010 11:26 PM

There is an online arcing site with online software with export capabilities and a decent tutorial.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 2912
Forum MVP
Jacob Hantla | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 9 2010 3:33 PM

DHG:

Unless I'm mistaken, arcing isn't the same as sentence diagramming; it is proposition diagramming. It would be so helpful to have both tools available in L4...

Arcing is propositional diagramming, so not sentence diagramming proper. But usually on here when people talk about "sentence diagramming" we're just referring to diagrams that involve words that help us via visual representation to make sense of the text. This seems consistent with the tools that Logos provided in L3 and are hopefully aiming at which would at a minimum involve the traditional "sentence diagram", block diagramming, and arcing.

 

Jacob Hantla
Pastor/Elder, Grace Bible Church
gbcaz.org

Posts 26140
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 9 2010 3:43 PM

Jacob Hantla:
Arcing is propositional diagramming, so not sentence diagramming proper.

You are more or less correct. However, there is another sense of "propositional diagramming" which uses proposition in a more technical sense. To me, arcing frequently resembles most closely a clause/phrase diagram. It is a rather strange but useful beast.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 2912
Forum MVP
Jacob Hantla | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 9 2010 7:26 PM

MJ. Smith:

It is a rather strange but useful beast.

I agree. I've had passages where I couldn't get my mind around them become pretty darn crystal clear and memorable by forcing myself to work through arcing. Very helpful tool; I'm glad I learned it. It not only helped my Bible study, but I think it has even helped my thinking processes. Highly recommended if you're unfamiliar with it, especially for anything Pauline (and very helpful for Hebrews & Peter too)

Jacob Hantla
Pastor/Elder, Grace Bible Church
gbcaz.org

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