Licensing for University Library

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William Gabriel | Forum Activity | Posted: Tue, Jun 12 2012 11:32 AM

I'm sure this has been discussed before, but I couldn't find any old posts regarding this question.

Does Logos allow (or would they be willing to allow) a University/College to have a license where Logos runs on a library computer, and it's only allowed to be used on that computer by students who have access to the library?

I know this runs counter to the way they typically handle licenses, 1 license / user, but if you locked the software down to one desktop, then it would be 1 license user per user at any given time.

I'm friends with a professor at a small school, and he's interested in building out their library. I started showing him my Logos library and how much I paid for resources (e.g. $130 for the IVP Ref Col 3), and he was flabbergasted. He knows he's going to have to pay far more than that to get the hard copies. They have a limited budget, but more importantly, they have limited square footage.

Part of their goal is to help train students in research. Allowing a library license would help Colleges expand that education by teaching students to research electronically (using Logos no less).

It wouldn't surprise me if many of those students purchased a base package while in school or shortly after graduating. I described my study methods and got a raised eyebrow: Logos unlocks powerful research capabilities to the uneducated/untrained. 

So, is this permitted? Is there any consideration for Logos to allow it if not currently?

Thanks, Bill

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 12 2012 12:00 PM

William Gabriel:
Does Logos allow (or would they be willing to allow) a University/College to have a license where Logos runs on a library computer, and it's only allowed to be used on that computer by students who have access to the library?

I can't speak for Logos but, to the best of my understanding, there is no institutional licensing available. I worked in the Library when I attended Bible college in the 1970's and I agree with much of your reasoning. I can also understand any reluctance Logos might have over perceived loss of sales or possible piracy (you would be surprised who will use software illegally Surprise!)  I believe the pros would far out-weigh the cons.

I assume you are already aware of the Academic discount program and the seminary scholarships Logos gives out. 

I encourage you to send your thoughts and suggestions directly to Bob Pritchett (Founder and CEO of Logos.) His email is: Bob@Logos.com  . He has the authority to make the big decisions and to speak on behalf of Logos and their policies and future goals. I wish you success.

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Thomas Ball | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 12 2012 12:07 PM

Super Tramp:
there is no institutional licensing available.

 

This is true. There was at some point a licensing similar to this years and years ago, but was also discontinued years and years ago. I cannot speak to any plans (or lack thereof) regarding the concept in the future. 

 

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Mark Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 12 2012 12:18 PM

I'm sure one obstacle in the way is licensing from the publishers. I imagine library licensing is not written into the license agreements Logos has with its publishers.

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 12 2012 6:26 PM

Mark Smith:

I'm sure one obstacle in the way is licensing from the publishers. I imagine library licensing is not written into the license agreements Logos has with its publishers.

I am certain you are on to a major obstacle. I can not believe that factor escaped me.

 

 

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 12 2012 8:33 PM

William Gabriel:
It wouldn't surprise me if many of those students purchased a base package while in school or shortly after graduating. I described my study methods and got a raised eyebrow: Logos unlocks powerful research capabilities to the uneducated/untrained. 

Seem to remember Logos offering the best academic discount when Logos is required for class(es).

If student had appropriate base packages, then the library would probably not need those volumes in hard copy.

One idea is progressive Logos use in a variety of classes so base package purchase and upgrades could be spread out over several years.

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Alan Macgregor | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 13 2012 3:17 AM

I know that Aberdeen University licensed Thesaurus Lingua Graece (TLG) to run on one computer in the library. Students had to book time on that particular computer to access TLG.

However, I imagine that Logos' business model is planned around individual users. Personally, I benefitted from special limited-time Logos promotions to the university, whereby students at Aberdeen were able to purchase base packages at advantageous rates within a certain time-window. It's a situation where students are able to carry their own library with them and have it when they move on from the institution. Even the ordinary Academic Discount scheme is quite generous.

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Lynden Williams | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 13 2012 4:56 AM

Welcome back Matthew. Don't know how long you have been back on the forums, but glad to see that you are back in the Saddle. Makes my heart glad. Right Hug

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fgh | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 13 2012 8:03 AM

a) It's not just that the license doesn't cover several users, it's also that the program doesn't really work well for several users. Everything one did would be available to and affect everyone else: favorite Bible, font size, priority list, highlights, visual filters, collections... The only way it could work in a library setting would be if everyone was forbidden to do anything but read.

b) Unless the US is very different, when you go out and buy a DVD film, the first thing you see when you start watching is a message forbidding you to hire it out. The shops that do, pay a very different price than you pay. In the same way libraries pay a much higher price than normal customers for e-books, films and music, in order to get a license that allows them to lend things out. So even if there was a library license, your friend still wouldn't get the IVP for $130, I'm afraid (I payed $95, by the way).

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Frank Fenby | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 13 2012 10:34 PM

I think that the Knox DMin model is the way to go. It is the model I have been pushing at Alaska Bible Seminary for two years now. Basically the student has all the library he really needs and will use in his computer and it is backed up on the web so he can not loose it including any all the notes and marking he has made in his books. (Making notes and marking greatly enhances learning and you cannot mark the books that belong to some dead tree library.) The few things a student might sometimes need that are not in his Logos library are often available on inter-library loan, the web, or some other place. This may not be true for a few highly technical PhD degrees, but is certainly true for most daily ministry.

A student who uses a paper library goes home with precious little and not much of a way to continue his self education. A student who has his own electronic library goes home with all his resources and the tools need to continue his education. A person goes to a school, college, university or seminary to learn how to learn, the "real" learning occurs when he falls out of the ivory town and lands in the "real world."

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Philana Crouch | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 14 2012 1:37 AM

I think there is definitely a strong value in purchasing ones own Logos library. When I attended seminary I made the choice to purchase reference works and textbooks in Logos if available. It only took me a few times of having to try to get the single copy of AYBD or ISBE for my Acts and General Epistles class (since there were three sections that was a challenge). No I did not procrastinate, there just were not enough copies to cover so many students. Having my own digital copy was a great solution, and I now own them even though I no longer have access to my seminary library.

Why not encourage your students to purchase their textbooks via Logos, and encourage your professors to choose texts available there. With the Academic discount and payment plan options this could make the books more affordable. Then students can have the same tools and resources they learned to use in seminary once they have moved away and begun the ministries God calls them too.

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William Gabriel | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 14 2012 6:36 AM

Thanks to all for the insights and comments. Here are my thoughts as I read through the thread.

1. What makes licensing different for a library than an individual. If a library purchases a book, they can loan it out to one person at a time (because the book can only be physically present in one space at a time). If the same were true in the digital realm, what's the issue? What I propose is having a workstation in the library: only one person can use it at a time, just like a real book.

2. Logos is set up for one user and it may be frustrating to try to have several users competing on the same synced platform, but a) the default layout is decent and b) layouts are easy to save. There would need to be cooperation from the standpoint that you wouldn't want to be deleting other profiles, but I don't think it would be a problem to set up your environment the first 60 seconds you sit down to Logos. One disadvantage to my proposed setup is that you couldn't extract data you enter into Logos (but based on the way people have recommended I use Notes, that seems like that's an issue for just about everyone). Yes, it would be a mostly read-only kind of setup, but is that any different than a physical system? You still get the advantage of the Logos system in terms of research, indexing, etc.

3. Piracy can be a problem with or without a shared system in a library. If someone wants to be dishonest and rip off Logos, they'll find a way without a shared workstation. And I don't think it would be terribly difficult to lock the computer down so that it would be difficult for all except Computer Science majors (at a Bible College?!--yes I know they exist) to extract the software.

4. According to accreditation boards, schools are supposed to provide required resources without requiring students to purchase them. The school in question fails in that regard, and they're thinking through how to remedy that. This is why I am thinking of Logos. It seems like it would be a better solution than a purely physical one. So yes, it would be great (for the students and Logos) if they all bought Logos with their academic discounts, but the reality is that they won't all be able to afford to. This is why you would put the system in the library. And for those who mentioned the fear of loss of sales, I am convinced that the opposite would be true. I think exposure to and real use of Logos throughout a school career would drive students to purchase it when they (or their ministry) can afford to do so. This is the model Microsoft uses (Bob Pritchett, you should know this!). They give away copies of Windows and Microsoft Development tools to CS students and departments in the hopes that they purchase them once out of school.

So it sounds like the answer to my first question is, "no, Logos cannot currently do that." However, I would strongly encourage them to pursue this. It would be another revenue source (schools across the country/world purchasing licences, probably in the Scholars to Portfolio range). Students would have hands-on exposure to a great Bible platform, and I really believe they would feel encourage to purchase their own copy. Schools would have an opportunity to drive education to the next level by teaching modern research methods.

Bill

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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 14 2012 7:01 AM

William Gabriel:
1. What makes licensing different for a library than an individual. If a library purchases a book, they can loan it out to one person at a time (because the book can only be physically present in one space at a time). If the same were true in the digital realm, what's the issue? What I propose is having a workstation in the library: only one person can use it at a time, just like a real book.

Your opinion and mine are irrelevant. Legal agreements between Logos and the publisher is what is important. Many publishers would strongly disagree with this position. In fact, according to the librarian, my local library has recently had to revoke ebook "rentals" because it broke licensing agreements.

William Gabriel:
According to accreditation boards, schools are supposed to provide required resources without requiring students to purchase them.

I am not sure what the issues are involved with the school in question, but I can assure you that this statement is an oversimplification. If this is true, I want a refund for all the textbooks I bought over the years!

William Gabriel:
it sounds like the answer to my first question is, "no, Logos cannot currently do that." However, I would strongly encourage them to pursue this.

I agree with you that it would be a great thing, but I stress that it is much more complicated that you (or I) understand. I know that my university spends tens of thousands of dollars each year for access to electronic journals. If Logos were to do something like this, I would imagine that it would be a very different licensing agreement than what you and I have with Logos. And much more expensive.

 

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William Gabriel | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 14 2012 8:44 AM

alabama24:

Your opinion and mine are irrelevant. Legal agreements between Logos and the publisher is what is important. Many publishers would strongly disagree with this position. In fact, according to the librarian, my local library has recently had to revoke ebook "rentals" because it broke licensing agreements.

I understand, and I'm encouraging Logos to pursue that kind of licensing. 

Publishers used to hate libraries (maybe still do) and tried to legally stop them from loaning out books. The courts upheld the libraries' rights. I'm not sure digital rights have been tested so well in court yet. There are an awful lot of similarities/analogies (which courts seem to love) between loaning physical books and one-at-a-time digital license user. Loaning eBooks is not quite the same as a digital copy gets produced with every loan. We'll probably have to wait a few decades, unfortunately, but my hope is that libraries and users retain the same kinds of rights in the digital realm that have been upheld in the physical realm.

alabama24:
I am not sure what the issues are involved with the school in question, but I can assure you that this statement is an oversimplification. If this is true, I want a refund for all the textbooks I bought over the years!

I've been to two different schools in my education career for undergrad and masters. They both had all required text books in the library. However, they were usually checked out the entire term. They were probably available at your school and you simply didn't know it. Did you actually look into where else your books might be available?

I always bought my books, but both schools had required texts "available" for those who couldn't (or wouldn't?) purchase their books. Practically all students purchase the books required because it's far more convenient and not as risky for the timing of assignments and test taking.

It's not a make-it-or-break-it requirement, as the school has a type of accreditation. But it does factor in. Schools get graded on a variety of student services, and book availability is one of them (as is spending a certain percentage of your budget on your library). They're looking to improve their accreditation rating to achieve the highest/regional accreditation (guarantees credit transfer).

BTW, almost all statements on an internet forum are going to be an oversimplification. We're not here to write dissertations. That doesn't mean the statements aren't true or can be dismissed because they're simplified.

alabama24:
I agree with you that it would be a great thing, but I stress that it is much more complicated that you (or I) understand. I know that my university spends tens of thousands of dollars each year for access to electronic journals. If Logos were to do something like this, I would imagine that it would be a very different licensing agreement than what you and I have with Logos. And much more expensive.

Sure, and I'm positive that schools would be willing to spend tens of thousands of dollars on Logos licensing too*. But electronic journals are constantly publishing too. It's like having a subscription to a physical journal where you receive and file the issues. I have to keep paying to keep getting magazines. Most Logos licenses are for books, where it's published once and paid for once. I see they offer some kind of magazine/journal subscription, though for most it seems like it's back issues (like Themelios), which fits the book model more closely.

Certainly they could develop this model for PD and Logos works. Though I know that schools would want current works (e.g the IVP Ref Collection I mentioned, Grudem's Systematic Theology, etc.), and perhaps those books can roll in over time.

*That's another reason that should be encouraging them to pursue this model.

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fgh | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 14 2012 9:23 AM

William Gabriel:
1. What makes licensing different for a library than an individual.

The fact that electronic media are generally sold with the explicit restriction that they're for private use only. Printed books generally aren't.

William Gabriel:
You still get the advantage of the Logos system in terms of research, indexing, etc.

No, you don't really. All sorts of things depend on the prioritization:

  • That default layout would bring up the 'wrong' Bibles and the 'wrong' commentaries.
  • Double-clicking would bring up the 'wrong' lexicon.
  • Right-clicking would bring up the 'wrong' alternatives.
  • And so on.

And then there's all the things that depend on you having well-defined collections...

William Gabriel:
layouts are easy to save

If you're one user, yes. If there's dozens or hundreds of users, finding your own layouts and files quickly becomes hard, stopping others from accidentally (or deliberately) deleting your work becomes impossible, and keeping the ever growing lists free from no longer needed items becomes equally impossible. Plus Logos isn't exactly easy to learn. The library would in all likelihood need a full time librarian just for Logos.

William Gabriel:
Students would have hands-on exposure to a great Bible platform, and I really believe they would feel encourage to purchase their own copy.

You're replacing hundreds of volumes with one computer. How much time do you think each student will get? One hour a week? Two? Hardly more. Not enough to read anything but a small article. Certainly not enough to do research, or even figure out how to do research. They would spend their few hours in frustrated attempts to figure out what to do, and then have to leave room for someone else long before they had. I dare say that experience is more likely to turn them off than encourage them to buy. 

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William Gabriel | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 14 2012 10:24 AM

This is mostly in response to fgh, but I'm too lazy to quote.

The prioritization one is a good point. Logos would have to put some effort into multi-user profiles (I'm guessing for a special education version then, since they wouldn't want people trying to share generally). I wonder how much of those settings would be "wrong" though, for students at the same school taking the same progression of classes...they're probably mostly using the same Bible version, same dictionaries and lexicons.

The library would probably have to spend a few minutes every year clearing out old settings. It wouldn't have to grow indefinitely.

In terms of Logos not being easy to learn, I have a couple of points for that. First, it's not too bad to get started on right away. You won't be the most efficient user of it by default, but if you type your passage or topic into the search box on the home page, you're off to a great start. I would argue you're off to a faster start than trying to find the books in the library. Second, that's part of the reason the school gets Logos. Students learn to use a modern research tool. Students are typically expected to learn the tools of their trade as a part of their education (e.g. I never had a class on "how to get your code to compile" for my CS undergrad--I had to learn on my own, and it was not painless).

And finally, I'm not saying that every library only gets one computer. You purchase the number of computers you need. Most people will do what alabama24 and I did: buy your own resources (Logos or hard copies of books). Maybe you need a computer lab full of Logos workstations. I think that would be a good investment. My grad program had its own computer lab (even though students could buy or download all the software they needed), and it was often full. If you need a computer and it's being used, I guess you wait or come back. That happens in real life now, and a good library will gauge need appropriately.

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Lynden Williams | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 14 2012 11:45 AM

Why not allow each user to have their settings, stored in the clouds. They log in and access their settings which remain with them for life. The books they lose once they no longer have access to the library. Of course the software would have to be rewritten for this purpose. When they graduate, they are more likely to purchase Logos since that is what they were used to. 

 

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Rev Chris | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 14 2012 12:01 PM

I agree with the OP that Logos should consider this type of licensing.  I know I would have jumped on the Logos bandwagon much sooner if my seminary had it on their library computers.

As for the digital vs print argument, I don't think it holds much water.  Yes, the rules are a bit different, but they're also still in flux for digital licensing.  Even still, as it stands right now there is precedent for libraries providing digital content.  Most public libraries do this already via Overdrive and other services.  No, not all publishers are on board.  But many are.  All it would take (I would think) would be a convincing person from Logos talking to some of the major publishers it carries and showing how 1) the copy protection is stronger than it is for Kindle books and 2) how such a model will be more likely to lead to sales of their products as compared to public libraries loaning out books that will likely never be purchased later on.  This model really is a win-win-win for all parties.

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DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 14 2012 12:16 PM

I've no druthers  for a personal Logos vs a library one. It'd be interesting if schools that make significant use of Logos type books would offer a discount if the student brings their own. Of course there'd be no payback for the school since 'a library' would be required regardless.

The accreditation question is interesting. I remember several small colleges trying to 'move up' and the library was one of several issues. If I were on the accreditation board, I'm not sure how I'd approach this with the modernity of the Logos world. Imagine a professor using Proclaim (but a bit more sophisticated; not just turning to the Bible). And the students with Logos, marking / noting their resources during class. Wow, that'd be great.

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Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 14 2012 5:11 PM

William Gabriel:
Logos would have to put some effort into multi-user profiles

Personally I would rather see Logos using their resources to fix the things are are still broken in L4, and in providing promised features that still have not materialized.

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