Linking of the Babylonian and Jerusalem Talmud

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john nerdue | Forum Activity | Posted: Wed, Jun 20 2012 3:24 AM

Can we get resources tagged and linked to both the Jerusalem and Babylonian Talmud.

Until this happens does anyone know how to find refrences in these resources. For example I am using "Commentary on the New Testament use of the Old Testament" and they refrence the Babylonian Talmud and give b. Sanh. 90b. I can't find this form of refrencing in the resource. When I try typing in "sanh 90b" I get "Sanhedrin 90" which has absolutly nothing to do with the subject being discussed in the "Commentary on the New Testament use of the Old Testament". Obviously I am doing something wrong or the tagging in the Talmud is wrong. I get the same results in the Jerusalem Talmud.

Can anyone help me figure out the way to find the correct refrences manually?

Posts 11433
DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 20 2012 5:53 AM

John ... in Libronix, the quick answer is set your index to 'babtalmudfolio' and then type in babtalmudfolio.4.4.90.b

Setting your index is in the litte white box to the right of the arrow, both to the right of where you type in the reference.

The talmuds have several referencing methods historically. Just for point of memory, whenever you see an 'a' or 'b' in the reference, you know they're likely using the 'folio' method (a=left; b=right).

This brings us to the next point. The newer version of Logos4 is FAR BETTER in handling these reference issues. If you had typed in your reference in Logos4, it would have taken you directly to the spot (I tried it).

Sooooo ... is there some reason you're still on Libronix? (I use both; Logos was nice to allow using both at the same time).

As regards your first question, you're right. There's not a lot of direct links (Logos shipped the Talmuds well after the Mishnah, etc). But you can safely assume the Libronix resources won't be updated with working links ... only the Logos4 ones.

"God will save his fallen angels and their broken wings He'll mend."

Posts 50
john nerdue | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 20 2012 11:18 AM

Thank you for your help. The reason I use Libronix is due to the speed issue. It is very slow on my computers so I just use Libronix which works fast.

 

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 20 2012 1:15 PM

john nerdue:
Can we get resources tagged and linked to both the Jerusalem and Babylonian Talmud.

Despite the fact that it isn't insuperably difficult to find the correct location using the method Denise suggests, I would strongly urge that these links be made.  I can also find a Greek word by typing the lemma into BDAG or a Hebrew word by typing it into HALOT or BDB, but that isn't why I have Logos.  It's supposed to work in such a way as to make such searching unnecessary.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 667
Jonathan Pitts | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 20 2012 2:10 PM

Part of the problem is that you have to have the abbreviation for the tractate exactly right for it to work. Various commentaries use different abbreviations.

My approach is:

1. Open the appropriate Talmud, in this case Babli

2. Go to the table of contents to select the correct tractate, b. Sanhedrin 

3. If necessary scroll down until folio 1A is showing in the reference box 

4. I then have the correct syntax for the reference and can change the folio number to the correct on 90B

Long-winded, but it works.

Each folio is quite long, so when you get there it can still be difficult to find the bit that is being referred to. You probably need to scroll down to find what the right bit from your commentary. The folio numbers can also be buried in the middle of a sentence, and it is easy to miss where 90B becomes 91A.

Hope this helps. Of course perfect linking to exactly the right spot would be better.

Posts 8899
fgh | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 21 2012 8:25 AM

Jonathan Pitts:

Part of the problem is that you have to have the abbreviation for the tractate exactly right for it to work. (...)

Each folio is quite long, so when you get there it can still be difficult to find the bit that is being referred to. You probably need to scroll down to find what the right bit from your commentary. The folio numbers can also be buried in the middle of a sentence, and it is easy to miss where 90B becomes 91A.

Another problem is that Talmud scholars (like patristic and medieval writers) often trust in their own memory, and it isn't always as good as they believe it is. Sometimes I've found the text referred to on the page after; sometimes I haven't managed to figure out what they're referring to at all.

DMB:
Just for point of memory, whenever you see an 'a' or 'b' in the reference, you know they're likely using the 'folio' method (a=left; b=right).

I believe it's the other way around. A folio is a leaf, so the A side will be to the right, and then, when you've flipped the page, the B side will be to the left.

"The Christian way of life isn't so much an assignment to be performed, as a gift to be received."  Wilfrid Stinissen

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Posts 11433
DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 21 2012 8:36 AM

Good catch (folio lettering). And a good book if others are curious:

http://books.google.com/books?id=keXGJjd4ThcC&pg=PA115&lpg=PA115&dq=folio+talmud+side+a&source=bl&ots=z-0h72xbrZ&sig=jO3ogakLUZ7K3Ny3BF6772dlI1s&hl=en

http://www.amazon.com/The-Essential-Talmud-Adin-Steinsaltz/dp/0876681607

"God will save his fallen angels and their broken wings He'll mend."

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 21 2012 2:04 PM

fgh:
Sometimes I've found the text referred to on the page after; sometimes I haven't managed to figure out what they're referring to at all.

fgh, you're certainly creating work for Logos today. That's why we need a fuzzier search ... which is in Accordance but not in Logos.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 21 2012 2:27 PM

MJ. Smith:
That's why we need a fuzzier search

Fuzzy Wuzzy was a bear

Big Smile

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

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