Sync Feature via Email & Password Activation Insecurites

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Posts 24
Ariyl | Forum Activity | Posted: Wed, Nov 18 2009 7:49 PM

I'm sure there are many circumstances that makes Logos 4 Sync Feature / Email & Password activation disrespectful of a buyer's security. For example, many people have children and had no problems installing Logos 3 for them. Everything they did on that machine was their own problem so to speak. We simply installed the Key file or sent it to them and they were off to the races. Not so in Logos 4. Email & Password loss or misuse is much more insecure than loss of a Key file. A Key logger for example needs only to see what you typed as opposed to hacking your machine and looking for a Key file that may not even be on that machine. 

So if / when a computer or an easier Email & Password is stolen or misused, one can logon to Logos.com and buy up everything if you left a credit card on file. Also, does everyone have children or family they fully trust to NEVER find a reason to misuse your personal account Email & Password that activates Logos 4? So you may also easily lose years of work / markup settings for any unwanted install or misuse of your account info due to the online Sync Feature. I'm pretty sure I know the underlying reason why they "sold" this thought of installing Logos 4 on all of ones computers with a sync feature. I'll leave that for my in-depth blogs. Anyways, how is that share friendly when one can no longer install Logos 4 for his own child, because your own settings will be manipulated? Am I being manipulated / forced to spend thousands of dollars for my children to secure my own primary machine from being manipulated in what is supposed to be a share friendly / secure Sync Feature? Or maybe my CHILDREN are being forced to spend the thousands. Hmm...

 

Proposed Fix:

1. Disable Email & Password activation (I've read this is possible now but with hassles).

2. Have option to ALLOW sync feature across designated computers via separate shared  User Name / Password(s)

Posts 225
Michael Birney | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 18 2009 8:12 PM

The EULA (software license agreement) says you can put it on as many computers as you use personally, not your kids, and in reality, not even your wife, and definitely not your friends.  So your post actually admits to breaking the EULA for 3, and asks Logos to change the password activation to make it easier for you to break the EULA for 4.  

No you cannot share the program to your kids just because you bought it.  You can't do it for any program you pay for - windows, games, music you buy.

You are being forced to spend money for your children to have their own copy, that is true, that is the way software sales work. 

I think you better rethink your post, your admitting to breaking the law.

 

Posts 225
Michael Birney | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 18 2009 8:41 PM

So I got this by e-mail update on this thread, but then when I came to the thread it was already gone. (I deleted the sender)    Michael Birney: your admitting to breaking the law.

 

poster - Which law exactly.....?

Well, of the 10 commandments it would be 8, "You shall not steal."

Not sure where you live, but in the US, it would be called stealing, and when you are caught doing it to say microsoft, even if it was by mistake, they try and take a lot of your money from you.

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Regarding installing for wife and family, please see Bob's opinion at http://community.logos.com/forums/p/341/3265.aspx#3265

Posts 2246
Damian McGrath | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 18 2009 8:55 PM

Michael,

that was me... I thought that you'd come on a bit strong and then I re-read the first post and realised that you were spot on and so I deleted my post.

The ability to quickly delete posts is a blessing as is the ability to edit them. 

Given that I had deleted my post there was no need to reply to it....

(I really don't need to have the 10 commandments quoted to me - but, for your information, for Catholics and Lutherans, the commandment to not steal is no. 7)

Posts 116
Matt | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 18 2009 9:22 PM

Michael Birney:
 You can't do it for any program you pay for - windows, games, music you buy.

Actually untrue.  Microsoft's EULA is typically per machine and they even advertise Mom, Dad, the kids, etc. all having their own accounts on the one machine and being able to save their individual settings.  There is something about only one person using the software at a time, but I'm not sure how that all works out in the nitty gritty.  Bottom line is that they don't want their software installed on more than one machine unless the proper number of licenses have been purchased for it.

Also, as regards music, if that were true, then I wouldn't be able to let my kids listen to any of the CDs I've purchased over the years.

I'm merely correcting this because I don't want anyone to be misinformed and therefore worrying about being a thief needlessly.

Matt

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    Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 18 2009 9:23 PM

    Damian McGrath:
    (I really don't need to have the 10 commandments quoted to me - but, for your information, for Catholics and Lutherans, the commandment to not steal is no. 7)

    Warning: Totally Off-Topic Post.       But I just have to ask:

    Damian,

    Can you please enlighten me on what the 10 commandments are for Lutherans & Catholics. You can leave a "private message" on my forum profile page. Maybe you can direct me to a Logos resource or Vatican website. My interest is piqued. I will begin my quest

    In all sincerity, Matthew

    Logos 7 Collectors Edition

    Posts 225
    Michael Birney | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 18 2009 9:26 PM

    Damian,

    You are right, both times.  I came on too strong, and then lectured you as I responded to your deleted post.  It was stupid of me, I apologize. 

    Commandment 7?  Really?  Are 2 of them combined, or moved around or?  I'm really asking, please don't read this any other way.  Exodus 20 is where I found the list below (I'm guessing you know that, I had to look it up).  Again, given my previous post, I want to make sure you understand, I am really asking, not being a jerk. 

    1 - 3 “You shall have no other gods before me.

    2.  4 “You shall not make for yourself a carved image, ....

    3.  7 “You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not hold him guiltless who takes his name in vain.

    4.  8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 

    5.  12“Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long in the land that the Lord your God is giving you.

    6  13 “You shall not murder.

    7  14 “You shall not commit adultery.

    8.  15“You shall not steal.

    9.  16“You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

    10.  17“You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife,

    The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (Ex 20:3-17). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.

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    Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 18 2009 9:33 PM

    Matt:

    Bottom line is that they don't want their software installed on more than one machine unless the proper number of licenses have been purchased for it.

    Also, as regards music, if that were true, then I wouldn't be able to let my kids listen to any of the CDs I've purchased over the years.

     

    The original post sounds like adult children are using a duplicate installation of ONE Logos license to avoid paying for their own. This is theft. No wonder the posting parent has concerns. If my kids were willing to use stolen software they might also misuse my credit card information. Surprise

    Applying this same conduct to music would be like making copies of your CD collection and giving those copies to you family and friends so they can avoid purchasing their own, the whole time retaining the original so the artist loses a sale for every copy you made. Theft again.

    Logos 7 Collectors Edition

    Posts 225
    Michael Birney | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 18 2009 9:36 PM

    As I said above, I was too strong I apologize.

    The point I was trying to make with windows was you put it on one computer, you can't then send the program to your kids to use on theirs.  When you download a song from ITunes, you can't then send it to your kids to use on their computers (although the newer network sharing allows for limited ability to do this).

    Sorry for being harsh in my posts. 

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    Damian McGrath | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 18 2009 9:38 PM

    Michael,

    No worries....

     

    Michael and Matthew

     

    I posted this on Matthew's user page:

    Info can be found on wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_Commandments#Catholic_and_Lutheran_Christianity

    The Catholic Catechism on the commandments here: http://www.christusrex.org/www1/CDHN/decalog.html

    It's all based on Augustine...

    Abbreviated Catholic Ten Commandments:

    1. I, the Lord, am your God. You shall not have other gods besides me.
    2. You shall not take the name of the Lord God in vain
    3. Remember to keep holy the Lord's Day
    4. Honor your father and your mother
    5. You shall not kill
    6. You shall not commit adultery
    7. You shall not steal
    8. You shall not bear false witness
    9. You shall not covet your neighbor's wife
    10. You shall not covet your neighbor's goods

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    Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 18 2009 9:44 PM

    Thank you very much Damian! Years ago I had a very vague encounter with this difference but had nobody to inquire of. I will read upon this. Star

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    Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 18 2009 10:01 PM

    Ariyl:

    Proposed Fix:

    1. Disable Email & Password activation (I've read this is possible now but with hassles).

    It is no hassle to force someone to work offline by NOT suppling the sign-in details. They just have to start L4 holding the Ctrl key. If there is no internet connection it will work off-line automatically. You can update off-line via occasional install DVD's or more regularly (a slight "hassle"), but this will avoid the sync issue.

     

    Dave
    ===

    Windows 11 & Android 8

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    Bradley Grainger (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 18 2009 11:02 PM

    There was also a Bible Study Magazine article that covered the divisions of the Ten Commandments: http://www.biblestudymagazine.com/interactive/commandments/

    Posts 184
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    Dan Pritchett | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 19 2009 9:43 AM

    Bradley Grainger:
    There was also a Bible Study Magazine article that covered the divisions of the Ten Commandments: http://www.biblestudymagazine.com/interactive/commandments 

    Come on Bradley, you've got to use the marketing tools that we give you! Come on man, pretty pictures!

    Big Smile

    Counting the Ten Commandments -- at BibleStudyMagazine.com

    Posts 3810
    spitzerpl | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 19 2009 9:50 AM

    Dan Pritchett:

    Come on man, pretty pictures!

    Big Smile

    he was probably thinking that is what his Avatar is for.

    Posts 727
    Chris Elford | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 19 2009 9:57 AM

    Philip Spitzer:

    Dan Pritchett:

    Come on man, pretty pictures!

    Big Smile

    he was probably thinking that is what his Avatar is for.

    Phil!!!! Right now you can't talk about pretty Avatars!!

     

    You'll probably put one up to make this post look ridiculous!!!

    Chris

    Smile

    Posts 116
    Matt | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 19 2009 10:49 AM

    I think the original poster brings up a good point though.  I have four children all under the age of 12 who are all being homeschooled.  I had assumed that it would be no problem to let my oldest learn and use the software, just as I am letting him use and learn Mathematica, Britannica, Encarta, Rosetta Stone, OED, Office, etc.  Even my six year old would enjoy being on the computer to use the software.  In fact, the whole family is excited about it.

    If I got the tone of Bob Pritchett's post right, and I have not simply morphed it for my own sinful profit, I don't think he would have a problem with my children accessing and using the software.  However, if I am not a thief in doing so, because I need to sign in coupled with the fact that the software installs in the UserData\Local ?! folder, I run the risk of having my child ruin any settings, notes, etc, I have potentially spent many, many hours putting together.

    Hmm, I just logged in under one of my children's accounts, and because Logos 4 is installed in the AppData for a given user as opposed to 'Program Files' where every other piece of software has been installed, the program cannot be accessed by my children, so Logos has essentially made this impossible with their installation scheme.  This seems rather draconian.  If I'm still within the Logos EULA as adumbrated by Bob Pritchett, I guess I could create a 'universal' account that all of us would need to use whenever we wanted to access Logos 4, but this is hardly tenable because now, in order to access the software, one would have to leave behind all of their current software that is up and running (where each program is tailored to the user's needs by virtue of the non-shared settings of each user account), in order to access Logos 4.  i.e. I often come across people, places and things with which I am either unfamiliar or want more information on, and I usually have Encarta, Britannica, the Merriam Webster's dictionary, and the OED open so I can due some side research, and I've taught my children to do the same.  It's certainly nice to be able to flip between these various resources.

    It appears that even if I weren't violating the spirit of the EULA, Logos 4 has made it impossible for me to let my homeschooled children use the software because of their installation practice.  I can't purchase each of them their own Logos Platinum due to the prohibitive cost (although, to be honest, I figured I'd use it like every other piece of software that my children can currently use with no EULA violation or technical problems whatsoever).  Even though it would be a stretch, I guess I could purchase each of them their own Bible Study Library.  As we share one computer with different login accounts, can I install Logos Platinum, Logos Bible Study Library, and another copy of Logos Bible Study Library together on one machine and have all the settings remain separate and unmolested to avoid the problem the poster was referring to in terms of corruption?  It does look as though for at least some part of the install/uninstall, the installer and/or software proper access the HKLM node of the registry which is shared amongst all users.  If that is so, it looks as though in order to have my children to be able to use Logos 4 with their own settings/preferences, I would need to have a separate computer for each one with each having their own licensed copy of Logos 4.  In one sense, this makes Microsoft's EULA look like a fun time at the park.  I am hoping this was simply an oversight and is all part of the launch pains of Logos 4.

    Matt

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    Mike W | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 19 2009 10:53 AM

    Chris Elford:

    Phil!!!! Right now you can't talk about pretty Avatars!!

    What you don't like puppies?

    I don't mean this to be harsh but regarding the original post, if I go to the home page and click on my email address it takes me to a login screen. It doesn't automatically log me in. If I don't know the my password I can't access my account or post to a forum. Considering that most online stores use an email address we provide for identification I don't feel that this is an issue.  After all, spammers have no problem finding our email addresses. The convenience of downloading resources when I need to reinstall is worth it to me, just like the convenience of being able to buy things over the internet.  Some of the other forums mentioned an option to install Logos completely offline for people with slow of no internet access if this is a real concern. 

    If you have children old enough to use Logos accessing your computer then you have more things to worry about than Logos using your email address to identify you.  I've cleaned up a number of computers for people after their teenagers downloaded malware. Not to mention that if they are sharing music you may recieve a letter from the RIAA.

     

    Posts 42
    Edward hyndman | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 19 2009 11:36 AM

    Matt:
    I had assumed that it would be no problem to let my oldest learn and use the software, just as I am letting him use and learn Mathematica, Britannica, Encarta, Rosetta Stone, OED, Office, etc.  Even my six year old would enjoy being on the computer to use the software.  In fact, the whole family is excited about it.

     

    I think it is great that your children are interested in using logos. EULAs seem to differ quite a bit. Norton seems to sell several licenses at once with some software, our church software is "site-wide" and has no restrictions on how many computers or users there may be. I doubt that many of us would think that showing our children things on Logos and letting them have a go at using it would cause any actual legal action. Big Smile But none of us wish to steal either.

    So my question is; is Matt correct in his understanding of the restrictions on the use of Logos4 within a family?

    Eddie

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