BDAG/HALOT ???

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Posts 85
Armwood | Forum Activity | Posted: Thu, Aug 23 2012 6:08 PM

Looking to hear from some, who have BDAG/HALOT. I would love to  hear/see  an example of how you used these tools and the info was so good that you just had to share.

                                                                                                 THANKS

Armwood

Posts 1799
David Thomas | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 23 2012 6:24 PM

BDAG is THE "go to" lexicon for Greek. I had the dead tree version (BAG) and appreciate the L4 version with sympathetic highlighting. If a Greek word has several possible meanings, the editors of BDAG have cited which meaning (in their opinion) is being used in each biblical reference.

Personally, NIDOTTE (New Interntional Dictionary of Old Testament Theology and Exegesis) is more helpful is discovering nuances of word meaning in Hebrew.

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Mark Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 23 2012 6:28 PM

Armwood, these are serious tools for those who have some ability in the original languages. Logos did produce a video series on how to use Biblical Greek and Hebrew that showed how to use resources like these for people lacking a background in Greek and Hebrew, but that wasn't how they were designed to be used.

If you do not have any background in Hebrew and Greek there are probably better tools to help you. I think the New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology and the similar New International Dictionary of Old Testament Theology and Exegesis are scholarly works that are more accessible to the average Bible student. These are not lexicons like HALOT/BDAG, but help you understand key Greek and Hebrew words. If that's what you are interested in, I'd look into those and similar resources.

 

Pastor, North Park Baptist Church

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Darren Ratzlaff | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 23 2012 6:44 PM

Any one know the name of the little drawing program that Morris Proctor was suggesting at camp logos?

 

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Alan Charles Gielczyk | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 23 2012 8:38 PM

David Thomas:
Personally, NIDOTTE (New Interntional Dictionary of Old Testament Theology and Exegesis) is more helpful is discovering nuances of word meaning in Hebrew.

Not to disparage the NIDOTTE, it is a great resource, but it is not a lexicon, it is a theological dictionary. The purpose of these two are quite different and I find both useful for different reasons.

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David Thomas | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 23 2012 9:06 PM

Alan Charles Gielczyk:
The purpose of these two are quite different and I find both useful for different reasons

Agreed! For my exegesis and sermon prep I find HALOT to be a more cumbersome way of getting the same information (list of glosses and usages) that I can get from right clicking on a word, selecting Lemma and doing a Bible Word Study. Using NIDOTTE and other resources helps me to decipher meaning. It is just the way I process information. Others may travel different paths.

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George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 24 2012 12:06 AM

BDAG and HALOT or BDB are the goto resources for original language study of the scriptures.  The are much more preferable than many other lexica which either present you with a list of glosses (definitions, sort of) from which you can choose in that they provide examples of usage in the various senses of the words so that you can see why one sense is preferable to another rather than simply pasting a list of glosses on the wall and throwing a dart to choose.  While they tend to be more specialist tools, a person who has not yet attained a proficiency in the languages can profit from them if he takes the time and trouble to check the various uses given.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

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Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 24 2012 12:52 AM

Hi George

George Somsel:
BDAG and HALOT or BDB are the goto resources for original language study of the scriptures

How would you position Concise HALOT (http://www.logos.com/product/7850/a-concise-hebrew-and-aramaic-lexicon-of-the-old-testament) vs HALOT?

Does it simply contain less information - but the information it has is of the same value - or are there significant things it doesn't provide?

Thanks, Graham

Posts 241
Kendall Sholtess | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 24 2012 5:16 AM

 

  I LOVE BDAG! It's the best lexicon I have seen anywhere for any language.

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George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 24 2012 5:46 AM

Graham Criddle:

Hi George

George Somsel:
BDAG and HALOT or BDB are the goto resources for original language study of the scriptures

How would you position Concise HALOT (http://www.logos.com/product/7850/a-concise-hebrew-and-aramaic-lexicon-of-the-old-testament) vs HALOT?

Does it simply contain less information - but the information it has is of the same value - or are there significant things it doesn't provide?

Thanks, Graham

I tend to think of the Concise HALOT as the Barclay Newman of the OT.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

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Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 24 2012 6:41 AM

George Somsel:
I tend to think of the Concise HALOT as the Barclay Newman of the OT.

Thanks, George

That's helpful, Graham 

Posts 10033
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 24 2012 6:49 AM

Armwood, you asked about practical use etc. and obviously each person will be different.

The way I 'operate' is I keep two panels for lexicons, one for hebrew/aramaic and one for greek. In each I keep typically five open at all times.

For both panels, I lead off with one of the Strongs Hebrew and Greek lexicons and prioritize it at the top of both hebrew and greek. The reason is most often all I want to know is if there's any translational variation in the word (most often not). So a quick 'hit' on the Strongs does the trick. However since all the lexicons are connected to this first one, while I'm reviewing, Logos is lining up the respective deeper lexicons if needed.

On the hebrew side I typically move down to Gesenius first, only because it's fairly decent and arranges the information for quick scanning better than the others. But if there's a real issue, then the next is definitely HALOT followed by TLOT. TWOT is time-consuming to read but still useful.

 On the greek side, I order Liddel Scott first followed by Moulton/Milligan. I personnally have BDAG but rarely use it because I don't agree very often with its verse assignments. It's background information though is the best. Finally there's TLNT and TDNT for more discussion depth.

Overall, if I were considering my first grouping of in-depth lexicons the BDAG/HALOT would far precede the others.


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Michael Childs | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 24 2012 6:51 AM

George Somsel:

BDAG and HALOT or BDB are the goto resources for original language study of the scriptures...  While they tend to be more specialist tools, a person who has not yet attained a proficiency in the languages can profit from them if he takes the time and trouble to check the various uses given.

Yes

I am very worried about myself because I find myself agreeing with George more and more.  Angel

"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 24 2012 7:02 AM

Darren Ratzlaff:
Any one know the name of the little drawing program that Morris Proctor was suggesting at camp logos?

 

Welcome to the forums Darren,

The program you are looking for is called "Click Tricks" and is sold by Morris on his website (Google it and you can find it.)

In the future it might help to start a new thread for an unrelated question. Most people are coming to this one to discuss BDAG/HALOT. Smile

 

 

 

 

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Michael Childs | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 24 2012 7:03 AM

You just can't do serious original language study without BDAG / HALOT.  They are the best lexicons available.  They will give you the reasonable options for the meaning of a word.  Context and other factors determine which option is correct.  It is not a take your choice kind of thing, or "I like this meaning." 

"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley

Posts 10033
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 24 2012 7:13 AM

Actually, if you read much of the scholarly work, picking/choosing is exactly the process oddly enough. Though the concept of turning the roulette wheel is supposed to be preceded by decades of guessing (as long as it's preceded by a PhD or similar).

I only point this out in humor, because common sense would underline this.

For example at church, our pastor prints out his sermon for us to peruse in depth. A group of us within just seconds can arrive at multiple meanings and no trouble at all. And that's within just hours of his sermon and having heard (and read) 400-500 more of his sermons.

And so I always smile when I hear of scholars confidently describing the meaning for writings thousands of years ago, having few samples to work with etc. I'm reading a commentary now on the Apostolic Fathers (who seemed to have appreciated this principle, never really wanting to quote anything exactly). But the commentator is refreshingly honest, using phrases like 'Well, my wild guess would be ...' since he knows no one really knows.


Posts 9945
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 24 2012 8:05 AM

DMB:

Actually, if you read much of the scholarly work, picking/choosing is exactly the process oddly enough. Though the concept of turning the roulette wheel is supposed to be preceded by decades of guessing (as long as it's preceded by a PhD or similar). … And so I always smile when I hear of scholars confidently describing the meaning for writings thousands of years ago, having few samples to work with etc. I'm reading a commentary now on the Apostolic Fathers (who seemed to have appreciated this principle, never really wanting to quote anything exactly). But the commentator is refreshingly honest, using phrases like 'Well, my wild guess would be ...' since he knows no one really knows.

That's true to a certain degree, especially with rather rare words or phrases, but when you've seen a large number of the same thing in similar contexts, the meaning becomes clear.  This is basically the same way we learned our mother tongue—by hearing words used frequently and putting 2 + 2 together.  Since Greek and Hebrew of this particular age is not our mother tongue, however, it's good to have some guidance from those who have "been there, done that."

NOTE:  I must confess that I sometimes translate using words none of the lexica recommend—mostly not disagreeing but trying to find a more felicitous term.

 

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 1
Christopher Michaud | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 24 2012 4:19 PM

I like Liddell's A Greek-English Lexicon (unabridged).  Every bit as extensive as BDAG, but  focus's on Classical Greek.   Some entries are more extensive than BDAG, and more complete..  I've gotten a better perspective on the meanings of some Greek words from studying it.  

Posts 1649
Room4more | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 24 2012 4:37 PM

George Somsel:

BDAG and HALOT or BDB are the goto resources for original language study of the scriptures.  The are much more preferable than many other lexica which either present you with a list of glosses (definitions, sort of) from which you can choose in that they provide examples of usage in the various senses of the words so that you can see why one sense is preferable to another rather than simply pasting a list of glosses on the wall and throwing a dart to choose.  While they tend to be more specialist tools, a person who has not yet attained a proficiency in the languages can profit from them if he takes the time and trouble to check the various uses given.

I love darts. The outcome can almost be algorithmically calculated! Wink

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Posts 241
Kendall Sholtess | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 25 2012 12:38 AM

Darren Ratzlaff:

Any one know the name of the little drawing program that Morris Proctor was suggesting at camp logos?

 

 

Hi Darren, 

I don't know anything about a drawer, but I do know that we might be related. My mother's side is Ratzlaffs from Kansas/Oklahoma. I'd be interested in knowing which Ratzlaff family you stem from. My e-mail is kendallsholtess at yahoo dot com.

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