passing on the gift??

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Mathew Haferkamp | Forum Activity | Posted: Sat, Nov 21 2009 10:20 AM

I was just wondering, with the money that has and will be tied up in this GREAT SOFTWARE, will I be able to leave this to a child or a church??

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Rich DeRuiter | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 21 2009 10:38 AM

MathewRHaferkamp:

I was just wondering, with the money that has and will be tied up in this GREAT SOFTWARE, will I be able to leave this to a child or a church??

Child: Yes; Church: No.

Explanation:

Logos has said that the transfer of all licenses via a will, can be done through their home office. There is a flat fee for this. I'm not sure whether it would be a per-license charge, or a package charge. You can ask them.

However, Logos does not sell licenses to institutions, nor does it sell site licenses. It only sells to individuals. Use of Logos software by a library, including a church library, or use by multiple people in a church office would break the EULA, and thus would be illegal.

 

 Help links: WIKI;  Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)

Posts 439
Mathew Haferkamp | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 21 2009 10:43 AM

thanks for the info!!!

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Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 21 2009 11:15 AM

Richard DeRuiter:

Use of Logos software by a library, including a church library, or use by multiple people in a church office would break the EULA, and thus would be illegal.

Really? Then how do you explain Theological Seminary libraries which have Logos available on a computer in the library for students to use while they are in the library? Surely these institutions bought the product directly from Logos and did so legally. And it is certainly to Logos's benefit to let them do this, because as students get a taste of Logos while in the library, they will find they can't do without it and will want to buy a copy for themselves.

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Rich DeRuiter | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 21 2009 11:23 AM

RosiePerera:
Really? Then how do you explain Theological Seminary libraries which have Logos available on a computer in the library for students to use while they are in the library? Surely these institutions bought the product directly from Logos and did so legally. And it is certainly to Logos's benefit to let them do this, because as students get a taste of Logos while in the library, they will find they can't do without it and will want to buy a copy for themselves.

I don't explain it. If they are doing this legally, it is because they have negotiated an exception to the EULA with Logos corporation and have a signed agreement giving them the legal right to do this. If not, they are engaging in illegal activity and should uninstall Logos immediately.

I would agree that it would be to Logos advantage to do this. But it's their bicycle, they get to say who rides it, and how.

EDIT: Added supporting documentation and comment.

Here's a quote from the EULA:

In no way shall "company" be construed in such a way as to allow for site-licenses, shared licenses, co-op licenses, library licenses or multi-user licenses. A church or company may be the purchaser and thus legal owner of the license grant, but may only allow one human being to be the beneficiary of this license grant.

This means there is no legal possibility for a Library to use Logos (unless it restricts access to one student, or one professor),unless it negotiates for this right directly with Logos.

 Help links: WIKI;  Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)

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Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 21 2009 7:28 PM

Richard DeRuiter:

This means there is no legal possibility for a Library to use Logos (unless it restricts access to one student, or one professor),unless it negotiates for this right directly with Logos.

Libraries get exceptions for all kinds of things, and usually they pay for them, a negotiated price based on the expected number of people that will be using the resource (subscriptions to e-journals and online databases like ATLA, for example). You can't legally subscribe as an indivual to an online resource and then share your userid and password around with all your friends, but a library may subscribe (at a more expensive price than an individual license) and let multiple people use the subscription. I am guessing that Logos has some sort of arrangement like this with theological libraries. By its very nature a EULA is an End User License Agreement, so it only applies to individual parties. With all the work Logos does to negotiate group purchase deals for students at seminaries, I am nearly certain they would not let the libraries go without a legal way of purchasing a copy for students to use while in the library. Part of the benefit of libraries is they give access to lots of books to people who wouldn't be able to buy all those books themselves. Same should apply for digital books. Some schools charge students a student fee for use of the library (among other things), and those fees help cover the subscriptions that libraries have to pay for access to digital (and other) resources.

 

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Rich DeRuiter | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 21 2009 10:19 PM

RosiePerera:
Libraries get exceptions for all kinds of things, and usually they pay for them, a negotiated price based on the expected number of people that will be using the resource (subscriptions to e-journals and online databases like ATLA, for example).

I'm sure that's true. All I can say is that the EULA I cited above explicitly prohibits libraries from doing that with Logos. So, if all a library did was pay for and download the software, then made it available to anyone who wanted to use it, they would be violating the EULA. Read it for yourself; I made a hyperlink in my previous post.

If a library has a legal right to let others use Logos, it can only be because they negotiated another kind of agreement with Logos. I would not be surprise to discover that this happens frequently.

 Help links: WIKI;  Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)

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Clinton Thomas | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 21 2009 10:46 PM

RosiePerera:
how do you explain Theological Seminary libraries...

Hi,

To me it makes a lot of sense that Logos would work out a deal with these libraries. I would be giving them a free copy if I was Logos. Here is why.

  1. Most theological libraries probably have one or two books more than Logos sells.
  2. The library, is not going to stop buying books because there is one computer with Logos on it. However,
  3. The students use the computer, see how easy it is to search and do their study (probably only in part with Logos),
  4. The student then rushes back to their dorm to buy Logos.
  5. Logos wins, the student wins.

It's kind of like the drug pusher model. The first taste is free, then when you're hooked, you pay.*

Regards,

Clinton

* for the humour impaired, this is a joke.

Posts 19362
Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 21 2009 11:19 PM

Clinton, I would add to your list:

6. Logos needs to make nice deals with theological libraries because it needs them as willing partners, in order to access more old books to scan, some of which are not available to purchase anymore.

 

Posts 37
Jonathan Andrist | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 22 2009 9:58 PM

"If a library has a legal right to let others use Logos, it can only be because they negotiated another kind of agreement with Logos. I would not be surprise to discover that this happens frequently." Is there some standard Policy? Who can I refer my librarian to? We recently got a new librarian, and I'm sure we'd like to be within the EULA...as far as I know back when I worked there we didn't have any separate licensing agreement.   We've spoken a number of times about various issues relating to Logos, and as they were reinstalling 3 on the machines, the issue of the EULA came up, and I said I didn't know of any non-individual user licenses so we were technically probably in violation. I do know that having the software installed has generated a number of student purchases in favor of logos though, including my own.

 

 

 

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Rich DeRuiter | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 22 2009 11:22 PM

JonathanAndrist:

"If a library has a legal right to let others use Logos, it can only be because they negotiated another kind of agreement with Logos. I would not be surprise to discover that this happens frequently." Is there some standard Policy? Who can I refer my librarian to? We recently got a new librarian, and I'm sure we'd like to be within the EULA...as far as I know back when I worked there we didn't have any separate licensing agreement.   We've spoken a number of times about various issues relating to Logos, and as they were reinstalling 3 on the machines, the issue of the EULA came up, and I said I didn't know of any non-individual user licenses so we were technically probably in violation. I do know that having the software installed has generated a number of student purchases in favor of logos though, including my own.

Jonathan, I don't work for Logos. I'm just a user. But I have looked at the EULA and it's pretty clear. If your librarian wants to set up Logos there, the only legal way to do it is to contract with directly with Logos.

I'm not aware of any policy, or even if Logos ever does this. I'm only saying that the only way a library can possibly have a legal right to have Logos available to more than one person, is to have an arrangement with Logos other than the standard EULA.  If Logos did this, it wouldn't surprise me, but I have no knowledge of Logos doing this.

You may wish to have your librarian contact Logos' academic department.

 Help links: WIKI;  Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)

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Ted Hans | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 23 2009 1:36 AM

RosiePerera:
Libraries get exceptions for all kinds of things, and usually they pay for them, a negotiated price based on the expected number of people that will be using the resource (subscriptions to e-journals and online databases like ATLA, for example). You can't legally subscribe as an indivual to an online resource and then share your userid and password around with all your friends, but a library may subscribe (at a more expensive price than an individual license) and let multiple people use the subscription. I am guessing that Logos has some sort of arrangement like this with theological libraries. By its very nature a EULA is an End User License Agreement, so it only applies to individual parties. With all the work Logos does to negotiate group purchase deals for students at seminaries, I am nearly certain they would not let the libraries go without a legal way of purchasing a copy for students to use while in the library. Part of the benefit of libraries is they give access to lots of books to people who wouldn't be able to buy all those books themselves. Same should apply for digital books. Some schools charge students a student fee for use of the library (among other things), and those fees help cover the subscriptions that libraries have to pay for access to digital (and other) resources.

Richard as usual is right on this. I also ask this very question on another thread & below you get Bob's take on it.

Matthew C Jones:

I imagine Logos is trying to avoid having a community accessible computer in a church library where the whole staff is sharing one license. Another blatant violation of the spirit and letter of the EULA is somebody selling their laptop with a complete install with licenses synchronized. I have seen this happen on eBay with Wordsearch.

Fair enough, i do agree with the above comments. I don't think the whole staff in a church should be sharing one license. 

Do Logos not have the option for group or institutional licenses at a higher price than individual purchases?  My wife works in a school & they will have to purchase network licenses in addition to individual software packages if they want to make resources available to the whole school network, or even a part of it, rather than just on an individual PC.  The licenses cost more depending on the size of the school or the number of PCs that will be able to access the software at one time.  In other words a church with 5 pastors sharing access to Logos would pay perhaps double the cost of the normal purchase price, but not 5 times the amount & they would own it as a church resource, not personally.  ie. if one of those pastors left to move to a different church they would not take Logos with them.  It would belong to the church, not the individual pastors.  The church would then make it available to it's staff / volunteers etc depending on what level of license access it purchased.

Ted

 

Thu, Jul 16 2009 12:14 PM  Bob's response from ANOTHER POST 

"Arrgghhh! I hate this topic. :-)

We have lots of heated discussions about this internally. Every other week we get the desperate-to-be-legal-and-ethical user who calls to confirm that they can install the software on their desktop and notebook computer. The other weeks we hear about the every-loophole-finding user who wants to parse our latest statement on the EULA to let them install the software on every machine they see, and to charge people for the service.

I am not going to answer all your questions. Ever. I don't want to. I don't want a clean-cut policy, because it just annoys the honest user who has a legitimate situation while doing nothing to stop the person who justifies-to-themselves whatever behavior they want.

So what follow is still not "the final answer." It's a guide, similar to what I tell our CS people. (Who all wish I wouldn't give them discretion, but would instead make an easy-to-refer-to policy. :-) )

We license the software to one user.

If you are one user with 10 computers, because you run a Mac, Windows, notebook, netbook, desktop, church, home, and three flavors of Linux, I don't care. You're just one user, albeit with too many computers.

(People call up and say "how many computers can I put it on?" We don't care, if they're all YOUR computers. When we say "3", as we used to, for convenience, we'd get people who called with lengthy and unnecessary explanations for why they owned four computers. We'd also get people who would install it on the Pastor, Youth Pastor, and Sunday School Teacher's computers. And we'd say that was wrong, and they'd say "You said three computers for one owner, and the church is the owner, so it's legal to put it on three computers used by people who work at the church." I say, that's abusing the license.)

What about my spouse? What about my child?

Well, now it depends. Are you and your spouse "one user"? I know lots of people who have a single email address like JoeAndMary@somemail.com. They have one computer, one email address, one copy of Windows, (one car? one cell phone?) etc. To me, they're "one user." Same thing when little Joey uses the family computer.

But if we extend the license to "officially" allow family use, we get (actual) scenarios like: Joe and Mary are both ordained ministers who attend and preach at different churches on Sunday morning. Each has an office, their own computer, their own salary and budget, and even their own church secretary. This, to me, doesn't feel like "one user". This feels like two users.

We also get Pastor Joe who has a 22 year old son Joe, Jr. in seminary, or a 35 year old son who is a pastor across the country. We've had people tell us they don't need multiple licenses, because they're family members. But Pastor Joe and grown-up Joe, Jr. seem like two users to me.

What if the user is a church, not a person?

It's great if the church wants to buy the software so the pastor doesn't have to buy it with their own funds. But that doesn't mean everyone who works at or attends the church is a legal user of the software (as some have tried to argue). It's still for "one person user"; thay can be Pastor Joe, and if Pastor Joe leaves, you can have him uninstall it and let new Pastor Mark use it instead. But we don't do site or organization licenses -- we license to a (human) user, even if an institution is the purchaser.

In the future, our software will use more web resources. You will be able to log into these resources -- and your own content -- at Logos.com using an email address and password. Our interaction will be with this "one user" who logs in, and who has one username, one email address, one mailing address, one name, one credit card, and one password. One set of note files, prayer lists, and reading plans. "One user."

I hope this helps. For the record, this email is not a replacement of the EULA or a new policy. It's just how I think about it, and how I encourage our staff to think about it."

-- Bob

 

Edited : in response to Jonathan Andrist comment

 

 

 

 

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Posts 37
Jonathan Andrist | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 23 2009 9:16 AM

I have read this specific reply on a number of occasions Bob and have replied to your email. I hope my post is more toward the desiring to do right by the Lord & you & your staff-user, in the reality of an imperfect world in which I have very little influence over the actual use of the machine.

 

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Ted Hans | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 23 2009 9:22 AM

JonathanAndrist:

I have read this specific reply on a number of occasions Bob and have replied to your email. I hope my post is more toward the desiring to do right by the Lord & you & your staff-user, in the reality of an imperfect world in which I have very little influence over the actual use of the machine.

 Sorry, Jonathan this was Bob's Reply from another thread dated Thu, Jul 16 2009 12: 14PM. I did a cut and paste job. Bob was responding to a general point raised by posters. Sorry for the confusion.

Ted 

 

 

Dell, studio XPS 7100, Ram 8GB, 64 - bit Operating System, AMD Phenom(mt) IIX6 1055T Processor 2.80 GHZ

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Jonathan Andrist | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 23 2009 9:33 AM

The way the reply buttons came across and everything else seemed to be quoted lent me to believe that it was infact a new post, but I see now how I should have known it was a quote.. I'd suggest using an actual quote block in the future.

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