Disappointed

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This post has 272 Replies | 18 Followers

Posts 9
Leonard T. Stitt | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 12 2012 8:44 AM

Not exactly. I received an e-mail of a posting from Graham Kriddle:

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Hi Len - and welcome to the forums.

I would suggest you contact Logos directly to air your concerns. While Logos personnel do contribute to these forums they are mostly frequented by users who can't address grievances with Logos pricing and marketing strategy.

If, however, there are specific issues that we can potentially help clarify then please post back.

Graham

---------------------------------

I actually have written to Logos directly (and it is very difficult to find an e-mail address for addressing concerns - hence the post on the forum).

As a long-time user, I thought it was appropriate to submit a post since others were doing so also.

Posts 152
Ryan | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 12 2012 8:48 AM

Faithlife being free/service/free trial... I'm still a little unclear about this one.

Posts 2040
Unix | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 12 2012 8:56 AM

The exact date is probably announced around wednesday plus 2 days/minus 1 day  (my guesses), but I haven't seen it determined officially anywhere quite yet. IMO like I've said somewhere before, it's good that they think carefully what to include in the crossgrades.

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Posts 9
Leonard T. Stitt | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 12 2012 9:00 AM

Thanks Phil:

Happy to comment.

When the Logos 5 Upgrade was announced, and even now when one goes to the upgrade page, there is no mention of any minimal upgrade or crossgrade, which gives the distinct impression (as it did to me) that the only way to get the new version of Logos is to pay the large upgrade price.

The only way I could find any information on the crossgrade was by looking on the forums and just happening to find a link to a posting by Bob Pritchett - which I can no longer locate.

If you type in "logos 5 crossgrade" or "logos 5 upgrade" on the Logos search engine, you get no links or information regarding the Logos 5 crossgrade.

In this regard, here is a recent post this morning on another forum by James Jordan:

"Just called in and spoke to a Logos sales person asking if I could go ahead and purchase the crossgrade.  I was told that he hasn't heard anything about an ETA on the minimal crossgrade and it would not be this week.

Now to dig up where I saw that ETA and see if this is a Logos internal communication issue or someone giving bad information."

When the merchant provides no ready information on other forthcoming options for their product it appears that the merchant does not want potential customers to know that cheaper options are forthcoming. I consider that deceptive.

If the information on upcoming free system-only software upgrade or minimal crossgrade options been included on the upgrade page in the first place, I doubt I would have complained at all, and would have considered one of these options.

This information is not clearly or readily accessible - even now.

Len

Posts 5632
Todd Phillips | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 12 2012 9:02 AM

Leonard T. Stitt:
This information is not clearly or readily accessible - even now.

I agree that we shouldn't have to come to the forums to find this out.

Wiki Links: Enabling Logging / Detailed Search Help - MacBook Pro (2014), ThinkPad E570

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NB.Mick | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 12 2012 9:18 AM

I agree that information on the upgrade page would have avoided some of the misunderstandings here.

Leonard T. Stitt:
just happening to find a link to a posting by Bob Pritchett - which I can no longer locate.

You answered directly to it here: http://community.logos.com/forums/p/58259/423339.aspx#423339 (which was your first post, according to your forum activity page which is linked behind your name in your posts). You can locate posts you replied to by clicking on the blue text "replied".

 

 

Running Logos 9 latest (beta) version on Win 10

Posts 9
Leonard T. Stitt | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 12 2012 9:21 AM

Thanks NB.Mick.

Posts 94
Ralph Wood | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 12 2012 9:42 AM

Todd Phillips:

Leonard T. Stitt:
This information is not clearly or readily accessible - even now.

I agree that we shouldn't have to come to the forums to find this out.

I'm a developer for a company using a large enterprise software package where I'm responsible for doing customization for my customer's company.  If I had a nickel for every time I've finished my development but had to wait for the communications bureaucracy to approve and distribute their user communications before I could deploy my changes, I could retire!  Big Smile  However, having watched the bedlam that has resulted with the L5 launch, I now have a better appreciation for why I've had to patiently wait to implement my changes.  Sadly, this might be a good case study on the subject.    I will say...regardless of why it happened the way it did, my heart does go out to those on the front line dealing with the repercussions.  Been there...done that!

Posts 50
Greg Reader | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 12 2012 1:17 PM

I'm starting to understand the concept, but I'm still stuck with something that doesn't make sense to me. I own Scholars Platinum (JG). When I go to the Gold L5 Upgrade page and click on "New to You" the only resources it shows me not yet owning are: The Lexham English Septuagint, Themelios 1–37 (1975–2012) (111 issues), and Lexham Greek-English Interlinear Septuagint: H.B. Swete Edition. But my upgrade price is $550. Does this mean I would be paying $550 for the software upgrade plus only these 3 resources? That seems significantly out of proportion with the pricing of my earlier upgrades and packages.

Posts 13
Duane Powers | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 12 2012 1:25 PM

I Just got off the phone with the sales department, I'm extremely disappointed with the perspective put forward by Logos regarding this upgrade, and by the general lack of interest in their loyal user base. When I purchased Logos 4 (Silver), before I paid to upgrade to Platinum, what I was told is that I was buying the resources, that all the base usability, features and functions were part of the base engine, and that base engine upgrades were free. I was merely buying resources to give that base engine objects to work with. 

Per the sales guy today, what I'm hearing is that Logos has changed their tune. Not the base engine is free, but it won't include added features, functionality, etc. Those are different, and will be sold as part of a crossgrade / minimal crossgrade, somewhere later in time - somewhere that is, as yet, undefined.

The sales guy was quite adamant that I should pay for the added "features" my position was that the features are part of the base engine, which previously was free, and that the discontent that I and some, if not many, are expressing is that the Logos has changed their game, by attempting to add a third category to the mix, where previously you had the base engine and the resources, now you have the base engine, the resources, and the features and functionality of the new software - which you should pay for. 

Pretty disappointed that Logos has gone this was, but I can tell you that their sales staff is extremely unapologetic about it, and suggested that if I don't like it - I can go ahead and sell my copy of the software. 

Great customer service, and it seems that the management at Logos doesn't seem to understand that it costs less to keep an existing customer, than it does to acquire a new one. 

Disappointed.

Posts 11433
DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 12 2012 1:35 PM

Duane ... the part on charging for 'features' is probably not new. They used to call them 'Add-ons'. I still use Libronix and sometimes wonder how I got them.

But the marketing drive IS curious. From what I understand, a person can spend $25,000 (not me) with Logos and still be regarded the same as someone that purchased a package and nothing else, back in the CD days.

Now, in a way, maybe that's good? They treat non-purchasing people like purchasing people. Just like the NT suggested, I guess. Though I kind of doubt that was indeed their reason.

Actually, having spent many years in business (like many others), I can't fathom what their strategy is. The Marketing Director said they misjudged on people wanting resources 90% off. I'd of hinted 'what resources?'.

"God will save his fallen angels and their broken wings He'll mend."

Posts 50
Greg Reader | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 12 2012 1:38 PM

I just checked my upgrade price from L4 Scholars Platinum (JG) to L5 Silver - $255. But the "new to you" comparison tool indicates that the only new resources I'd be getting are the same 3 I would get if I upgraded to L5 Gold for $550: The Lexham English Septuagint, Themelios 1–37 (1975–2012) (111 issues), and Lexham Greek-English Interlinear Septuagint: H.B. Swete Edition.

So it seems quite evident that the pricing isn't based on what resources I already own and what new ones I will be getting, but on the name/level of the package I will be purchasing. Why should I pay an extra $225 for no additional resources?

trying to figure this out ...

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Rich DeRuiter | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 12 2012 1:43 PM

Duane Powers:
I Just got off the phone with the sales department, I'm extremely disappointed with the perspective put forward by Logos regarding this upgrade, and by the general lack of interest in their loyal user base. When I purchased Logos 4 (Silver), before I paid to upgrade to Platinum, what I was told is that I was buying the resources, that all the base usability, features and functions were part of the base engine, and that base engine upgrades were free. I was merely buying resources to give that base engine objects to work with. 

A common misunderstanding is that we only pay for resources, everything else is free. It hasn't meant that since at least Libronix. In Libronix add-ons were required to have all the possible functionality of Libronix. They were either included in a base package, or were available for purchase separately - in fact some were only available by purchasing a base package; others only by separate purchase.

In Logos4 the add-on concept was dropped, and functionality was tied to resources and base packages. So the engine was free and the resources you bought basically determined the functionality you had. Which means if you bought a lower-end base package in Logos4 you did not have all the functionality you would have if you bought a higher end package. I don't remember anymore which Logos4 functions required which base package or above. Maybe someone else can chime in.

In Logos5 this is basically the same. The engine will be free, but to get all the possible functionality Logos offers you will either need to buy the Gold package or above (plus the Septuagint, if you want that added feature), or wait for the crossgrades that will come our way sometime soon.

A base engine is fully functional, that is, it works without any addins/upgrades/additional purchases, but doesn't give all possible functionality. Does that make sense?

Note that the free engine, when released will be fully functional (in the sense mentioned above). And you will retain all the functionality you now enjoy with your Logos4 package. If you want the new features, you'll need to pay for them.

 Help links: WIKI;  Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)

Posts 11433
DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 12 2012 1:44 PM

Greg ... are you SURE you're reading their chart right. Others have been confused by it. As I understand, the 'new to you' stays the same regardless of which package you click on. You have to follow the 'dots' (though I'm not sure what they mean since there's no explanation).

"God will save his fallen angels and their broken wings He'll mend."

Posts 98
Joshua Coady | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 12 2012 1:53 PM

Duane Powers:
... I was merely buying resources to give that base engine objects to work with. ...

As I understand it, in a couple weeks when the free L5 engine update become available, it will have all of the features built in. Some features of the base engine need certain types of resources to work. If you dont have any of these resources to make it work, then they wont show you (or will alter) the UI for that feature. What you are purchasing with a minimal cross-grade is all of the resources needed to make all of the features of the new L5 engine have something to work on.

This was the same in L4, just being expanded in L5. For example, in L4 (and L5) with a properly tagged Bible the engine can show you the Louw-Nida numbers for each word. Additionally, if you have Louw-Nida, those numbers will be clickable and take you to that entry.

People that are running on L5 Starter and those that are running on L5 Portfolio both have the same app engine installed. The only difference is the set of resources they have purchased.

Posts 98
Joshua Coady | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 12 2012 1:59 PM

That being said, they definitely could make this more clear on the features page by noting which features require resources to function that are currently only available with certain base package levels (and eventually available as a separate cross-grade purchase).

Posts 844
Dewayne Davis | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 12 2012 2:01 PM

FYI. This may help some understand what they are looking at.

 

“... every day in which I do not penetrate more deeply into the knowledge of God’s Word in Holy Scripture is a lost day for me. I can only move forward with certainty upon the firm ground of the Word of God.”

Posts 11433
DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 12 2012 2:20 PM

Dewayne ... you're now the resident expert! So, what do the black dots mean?  I notice you don't have any.

"God will save his fallen angels and their broken wings He'll mend."

Posts 98
Joshua Coady | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 12 2012 2:31 PM

All dots in the highlighted column were meant to be black, but there is a bug causing some or all of them to stay gray (the bug seems to be related to what browser you are using and/or if you have recently cleared your browser's cache).

A dot (regardless of color) on a non-white background means this is a resource that is part of the currently selected  package.

Posts 11433
DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 12 2012 2:35 PM

Ah so.

Yes, I'd given up on the black dots since sometimes they were in columns I had not selected. Plus of course I made the same mistake above, clicking on the package of interest and concluding the 'just for me' was for THAT package.  That's when I figured out it was NOT just for me (without a significant contribution).

"God will save his fallen angels and their broken wings He'll mend."

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