Selling Logos 4 rather than upgrading to Logos 5

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This post has 249 Replies | 11 Followers

Posts 483
Gary Butner, Th.D. | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 3 2012 5:38 PM

Gord Berta:

I though it was just me, as you said 4 was laced with broken promises, and I still harbor ill feeling for helping beta test for over a year, and not as much as a personal 'thank you' let alone a copy of the engine we worked on for over a year.

Logos is all for Logos, money first, money first, then more money.  I will support WordSearch from this day forward. 

Apparently you didn't appreciate the free Presarus Collection, with 1100 or 2200 books Logos offered everyone?

 

Posts 3917
Forum MVP
Friedrich | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 3 2012 5:54 PM

Patrick S.:
Problem is, people are initially finding out about the new version from the website and/or the forums, and the vacuum of (hard & detailed) information for existing customers ends up being filled with a lot of angsty posts by people worried about their L4 investment.

perceptive.  very.

Patrick S.:
It could have been avoided.

siiigh.  i'm not sure on that one. but perhaps it could have been smoother.  people get worried and in their worry, they often resort to behavior that on their better days, they know is not correct--like assigning motives and judging when they clearly know Jesus' words in Matthew 7.  I know I have.  Judging sucks.  Forgive us Lord.  And help us all be patient with one another--and to know your will and live out your love through us.

I like Apples.  Especially Honeycrisp.

Posts 3810
spitzerpl | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 3 2012 6:04 PM
Tommy Miller:
but will I have to pay a greater premium to jump from L5 Starter to L6 Gold than I would have from L5 Gold to L6 Gold?
No. You would be upgrading from l4 gold + l5 starter + other purchased resources to l6 gold. In my view while this transition in business model may be a painful one it is more fair because it begins. To take the resources I have purchased into account rather then the packages I have bought.
Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 3 2012 6:26 PM

Tommy Miller:

Pride or no pride, emotional or not, here is a legitimate question (hypothetically speaking, of course).

I upgraded from Gold to Portfolio when L4 came out. I have since spent thousands of dollars on additional resources. Now I can't afford a Portfolio to Portfolio upgrade, so I jump to a L5 Starter Pack. I still have all of my resources, only my status (and pride) have been hurt Embarrassed. But look ahead with me in time one or two years . . .

You might have been better off waiting for the free engine and purchasing the crossgrade since that would give you all of the data base addins while the Starter Pack only gives you 1 (If I remember correctly). 

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 3 2012 6:29 PM

Gord Berta:

I though it was just me, as you said 4 was laced with broken promises, and I still harbor ill feeling for helping beta test for over a year, and not as much as a personal 'thank you' let alone a copy of the engine we worked on for over a year.

Logos is all for Logos, money first, money first, then more money.  I will support WordSearch from this day forward. 

Yes, well, I was in the beta test too, but I don't feel put out that I wasn't given a pat on the head and a gold watch for my (rather meager) efforts.  In the end it was to improve a product that will benefit me.  So, Gordo, you want to support WordSearch hereafter?  Good luck with that. 

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 3 2012 6:34 PM

BS:
The fact that they are now using the same names in Logos 5 for completely different packages (Logos 4 platinum != Logos 5 platinum) is bothersome to me.  I bought the resources in my library.  These resources are expensive because they fund the software development.  The software is just there to allow me to search and read these resources.  To change the resource package the same label refers to just because of a software update is not cool.

I was a bit confused at first by the use of the same names for the differing levels until I realized that they were completely different animals from the L4 packages.  Perhaps they simply name them Level 1, Level 2, Level 3, etc.  I really don't care what names they choose so long as everything is clear.  Why get bent out of shape about the name?

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 15805
Forum MVP
Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 3 2012 6:39 PM

Gord Berta:
I though it was just me, as you said 4 was laced with broken promises, and I still harbor ill feeling for helping beta test for over a year, and not as much as a personal 'thank you' let alone a copy of the engine we worked on for over a year.

Appreciate anguish; do remember a tantalizing screen shot of initial Libronix port to Mac OS X appearing many months before initial Logos release for Mac OS X, which was usable for Bible Study, yet lacked many Libronix 3.0g features.  Also remember Logos receiving much grief from many Mac customers about missing a promised delivery date by many months.  Now Logos does not publicize future release plans until ready to ship, which happened with Logos 5.

In 2009, Logos embarked on a public Logos 4 Mac alpha program.  Beta's can be a bit buggy while Alpha's can crash a lot.  My initial Logos 4 Mac installation consistently crashed so was completely unusable.  Thankful for Logos development improvement that fixed crash issue in a subsequent alpha release.  During Logos 4 Mac alpha that lasted almost a year, remember a sense of gifts arriving every week or two to find out what Logos 4 features had become usable on Mac OS X.  One benefit from the public alpha program was learning many Logos 4 features and capabilities.  Logos has a learning curve for effective usage; wiki has => http://wiki.logos.com/Getting_Started_with_Logos that has many Tips and links.

Thankful for substantial feature parity improvement in Logos 4 Mac.  In version 4.2a; Logos development combined Mac and PC releases.  The wiki has a feature parity list, which was noticeably reduced with Logos 4.6a stable release => http://wiki.logos.com/Mac_and_PC_User_Interface_Differences#Feature_Parity

During Logos 4 Mac alpha development, Logos "promised" feature parity between Mac and PC.  Currently, Logos 5.0 has the best feature parity thus far; not aware of any new feature discrepancies between Mac and PC.  Looking to Logos 5 improvements on Mac and PC along with mobile app improvements, which have already included syncing of highlighting and notes across many platforms.

My favorite Logos feature is visual filter highlighting so can "see" morphological codes in Greek and English using resources in parallel:

English is not Greek; intensity and range of verbal expression in Greek often lack during translation into English.  Highlighting verbs quickly shows range of expression used by the original author.  With verbs highlighted, can look at surrounding words in their context.  Forum thread has a bit more about verbal intensity => http://community.logos.com/forums/t/56318.aspx

Logos 5 adds Root and Senses to Bible Word Study, an awesome addition.  The screen shot is from a 27" iMac using Full Screen mode in OS X 10.8.2

Keep Smiling Smile

Posts 11433
DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 3 2012 7:08 PM

Very nice screenshot, KS4J. Being the king of Logos visual markups, the future will be pretty unbelievable with your talents and expansion of the databases!

"God will save his fallen angels and their broken wings He'll mend."

Posts 130
Robert J Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 3 2012 7:12 PM

BS,

Great post! You hit the nail right on the head.

Posts 550
Shawn Drewett | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 3 2012 7:12 PM

BS:

If they had been up front with us at Logos 4 release time and told us that PBB ranked among their absolute lowest priorities (which is not surprising since there's no money to be made in PBBs) I would not have purchased Logos 4 in the first place.

BS, I could not agree more as to the above statement. I was "crushed" when after I upgraded to L4 I realized that I had lost all of my L3 PBB's. 

As to your pretended dialogue to make a point, I think it's insightful and spot on.

Also, I appreciate your spending priorities and hope that  it's contagious. 

Posts 130
Robert J Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 3 2012 7:18 PM

What I am upset about is the attempt by Logos to force me to purchase resources I already passed on when they were in Pre-Pub in order to get full functionality. However while I wait for the minimum crossgrade to appear sometime in the future, at least I don't have to work around the bugs and missing features of the early L5 incarnation.

Posts 130
Robert J Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 3 2012 7:21 PM

DMB Big SmileYes

Posts 521
Russ White | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 3 2012 7:30 PM

Halo Hound:
No. You would be upgrading from l4 gold + l5 starter + other purchased resources to l6 gold. In my view while this transition in business model may be a painful one it is more fair because it begins.

I'm not certain I buy this... My understanding is that when you go to a gold package, you get a higher discount per resource than when you go to silver. I've been told this by folks at Logos directly several times, so I tend to believe it's true.

So, think about this (just using round, not real, numbers):

1. You start with Gold L4 with 1000 resources.

2. You move to Starter L5, and get, maybe, 50 resources more.

3. You now move from Starter L5 to Gold L6 --but since you didn't buy the differential between Gold L4 and Gold L5, you're now buying those as well as the new stuff that's in Gold L6. Further, since these are "makeup" resources, you're not getting the same discount level on them as you would have if you had crossgraded from L4 Gold to Gold L5.

I don't see any way to work this where moving from Gold to Starter now, and then from Starter to Gold later, isn't more expensive than Gold L4->Gold L5->Gold L6, even if you wind up with precisely the same resources.

In other words, there's more to the package than just the name and pride, no matter how many times it's been repeated here. There are discount levels involved, too. I also think there's more to the upgrade price than just the resources --I've heard enough people talk about this that I think there's a package-to-package price built in, too. For instance, take a look at my situation. Here is my total buy since 2000 with Logos:

 

My upgrade price to Gold L5 was $500. You can tell me all you want that it's all about resources, but I will still believe that part of that $500 was moving from original languages, which is what I bought when I jumped to L4, to Gold in L5 --just to get the package name differential. A seemingly basic question:

If there were no package to package difference, then why does Logos even keep track of which package I buy? Why am I even classified as a "Gold user," when I call into sales? Why does anyone actually care what package you already have when the big upgrade push comes around?

The only reason I can think of is that there's a package-to-package price --that it's not just about resources.

Posts 2517
David Thomas | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 3 2012 7:38 PM

Russ White:
My upgrade price to Gold L5 was $500.

How many of the Gold L5 resources are "new to you"? Even though you have purchased many titles in the past (regardless of if they were part of packages or not), my understanding of the new dynamic pricing is that the key question is "how many of the titles in the desired package do you already own?"

 

Making Disciples!  Logos Ecosystem = Logos8 on Microsoft Surface Pro 4 (Win10), Android app on tablet, FSB on iPhone, [deprecated] Windows App, Proclaim, Faithlife.com, FaithlifeTV via Connect subscription.

Posts 521
Russ White | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 3 2012 7:43 PM

David Thomas:
How many of the Gold L5 resources are "new to you"?

Not as many as I might have expected.. A lot of them were apparently "new versions" of stuff I already had, so they show up as "new to you."

Posts 13
Daniel Brouwer | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 3 2012 7:56 PM

I just bought L4 "Scholar's Library" last summer, and have added many hundreds of dollars of content since I purchased the base package. Years ago I had the old Libronix with a lot of added content, and it all transfered into L4 automatically. I have been very pleased with all the software and with everything about how the company deals with me.

I read all the negative reactions to the release of L5 and was initially concerned and disappointed by what I read. Then I looked at the content I would get by upgrading to L5 bronze (for $315). There was a lot of stuff I don't think I want or need, but the stuff I would like to have that was included in the upgrade was pennies on the dollar compared to what it would cost to add it to my L4 library piece by piece. And some of the stuff that didn't look worthwhile to me is stuff I would have wanted if I had known what it was. I'm amazed that my ability to drill down into the Hebrew is so much more enhanced over what I could do in L4. Not only that, but L5 runs faster on my machine with a lot more information available in the different guides. Bottom line, I think I got a huge bargain in my upgrade. I really don't care if my "official" base package is named  Tin instead of  Bronze. I have everything I had before, but it works better and I have a lot of new stuff I would have wanted anyway -- not to mention some things I would have wanted if I had only been able to see in action. Now I see them in action in my own machine and they are already mine.

I know a lot of the marketing and sales things are confusing, but hey, my bottom line is comparing what I get to what I pay. Based on that,  I think Logos has treated me pretty well.

I also know producing anything costs money, and you get what you pay for. Are some of us perhaps expecting something for nothing?

 I just can't see Logos as the heartless capitalist marauder described here by so many of its customers.

 

Posts 284
Claude Brown Jr | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 3 2012 8:05 PM

BS:

  I can imagine the marketing meetings that happened at Logos:

"We need more money.  How do we increase revenue?"

"Let's release a software update"

"But our customers understand that they're buying the library, not the software.  They're not going to pay the kind of money we need for new software"

"So let's create new resource packages"

"But our customers are already pretty happy with their libraries at this point, plus they're pretty happy with the features of Logos 4.  They're not going to purchase new resource packages, they'll just do the free upgrade to the new Logos 5 engine."

"We will make them wait to receive the free Logos 5 engine.  They will be stuck using Logos 4 until everyone who has upgraded to a new package will." 

"Okay, but you still didn't explain why a substantial portion of our existing customers will want to upgrade when they are already happy with their libraries at this point."

"Let's downgrade their Logos 4 package labels in the new Logos 5.  A customer who had Logos 4 Gold will now have to pay a huge amount of money to maintain 'Gold', or else pay a little bit and end up with Logos 5 'starter'.  This way customers will feel that their current library now has less value and will feel pressured to upgrade."

"Our customers will never go for that!  How are we going to retain our customer base if we pull tricks like this?  We can't just downgrade their libraries, how stupid do you think they are?"

 

 

 

Were you really in the room?

Posts 2992
Forum MVP
Jacob Hantla | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 3 2012 8:08 PM

Sounds much more like you need a minimal crossgrade. The $20 would cover the transfer of your entire library.

Jacob Hantla
Pastor/Elder, Grace Bible Church
gbcaz.org

Posts 284
Claude Brown Jr | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 3 2012 8:13 PM

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :):

BS:

I do welcome your input on a solution. Maybe the "free software" concept was a bad idea? Few other products I have have been offering free engine updates -- in any form -- since 1995. I've bought Word, Excel, Windows, Mac OS, etc. many times in those 17 years. Should Logos just move to paid upgrades, and stop making so many books? (It might be hard to make that change after all these years, but it's an interesting question.)

-- Bob

Keep Smiling Smile

Just wondering why the comparison to non-biblical software resources instead of oh say e-sward which has always been free?

Posts 284
Claude Brown Jr | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 3 2012 8:19 PM

alabama24:

BS:
The third bothersome thing is that there is no way to upgrade to the Logos 5 software at the moment for us "old" customers.

The software doesn't just let you "search and read" resources. The Logos system allows you to DISCOVER material while doing research. One of the advantages of a large library is that you can serendipitously discover something. There is a reason I use to drive 2 hours to go to the "big city" library when I was working on a research paper. My hometown "maybury" library just didn't cut it. 

I do not think that was fair since the way you 'DISCOVER' is still search and read, without the two hour ride of course.

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