Official: Minimum Crossgrade and free engine download are coming!

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Posts 127
Robert I | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 5 2012 9:07 PM

Bob,

As a new customer who is still in my time frame of making monthly payments to be able to afford this software (spending over $600), this upgrade gives me the disappointing feeling that I should have waited.  I feel like I do when I bought my iPad 3 weeks before the new model came out and was stuck with a significantly inferior product.  This seems very disappointing to me, a new customer, just joining the Logos family.  I feel overlooked. Just sharing my thoughts as I would keep paying for an outdated and replaced product.  This was not for content but the whole package.

Remaining in Him (1 John 2:28), Robert

Mac Book Pro, Windows 7 Professional, iPhone 4S, iPad 1

Posts 8893
fgh | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 5 2012 9:26 PM

Robert Iversen:
I would keep paying for an outdated and replaced product.

Actually, you'll be paying for a product that is better than you knew when you bought it. You'll get L5 when you thought you were only buying L4. You just need to wait a little while for the free engine to become available first.

As for the package content, if you compare what you have with some L5 package and decide the L5 one would suit you better, give Sales a call, and they might let you switch, depending on how long you've had it. Just remember you'd lose any resources that are in the old package but not the new.

"The Christian way of life isn't so much an assignment to be performed, as a gift to be received."  Wilfrid Stinissen

Mac Pro OS 10.9.

Posts 28121
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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 5 2012 9:53 PM

Robert Iversen:
I feel like I do when I bought my iPad 3 weeks before the new model came out and was stuck with a significantly inferior product.

Do you know how silly it sounds for you to be complaining about this? Don't you know that Apple is always innovating? There will always be a "new" product? I struggle with always wanting the newest and best… but I realize that it is a part of my fallenness… It sounds like you are a little blind to this in yourself. With great kindness and respect, might I suggest meditating on Matthew 20:1-16?

I don't know when you purchased your base package from Logos. It sounds like you think it "wasn't too long ago," was it more than 30 days? Logos is fairly generous with their return policy. If you feel jipped, give them a call… but consider that Logos can't give everyone back their money who purchased X days ago. Where does it end?

FWIW – I would have preferred that Logos given advanced notice of perhaps a couple of weeks time. I think Logos could have done some things better… but they didn't do anything morally wrong.

 

OSX & iOS | Logs |  Install

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 5 2012 9:56 PM

Naveen Balakrishnan:

Pre-pubs coming due at the same time has been a struggle for me especially during August and I now see there is one bunch load coming up  in the next couple of weeks.  ...  I am not sure that there is an easy answer to this dilemma of releasing pre-pubs at the same time as well as people who have just bought Logos 4 in the past six months.

Suggest calling Logos Sales.  Thankful for option to combine Logos 5 upgrade with pre-publications that have a ship date into Logos payment plan.

Naveen Balakrishnan:

However, I am perplexed about this Logos 5 (new to you) includes in its pricing for my account NAC as new to me while I already own most of the resources in that set (37 of 40).  I am not sure how the online discount calculator is configuring resources that I already own.  I don't know the configurations of this tool which takes all that stuff into consideration or does it see me not owning the 40 volume set (as opposed to having paid the 37 vol set and just lacking the three newer volumes added to this configuration).  This leaves me in quite a quandry.  I am not sure the sales people have an adequate answer to this issue.

The upgrade calculator has a "New to you" icon when 1 or more resources in a collection would be added.  In this case, credit for existing NAC volumes is included.  Personally wish for upgrade to show a count of resources that are new.

Keep Smiling Smile

Posts 56
Matthew Candler | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 6 2012 4:00 AM

I love Logos, hard not to after 12 years of investment and many hours of exciting research and loving bible study. I appreciate Bob for clarifying what he did.

What strikes me as a bit unfortunate is Logos' seeming divergence away from the common practice of software companies and their upgrade releases. Of all the software that I have, when they release upgrades, they extend the upgrade discount prices to their existing customers first as a primary marketing strategy.

Why? Because excited and loyal existing customers are the best advertisement for potential new customers. While it is clear that pricey upgrades and new base package sales pay the bills, as a long term strategy this eventually breaks down because of oversight of existing loyal customers, which are the most powerful and effective advocates for sales. 

Still holding out for this to be the case in the future. Wink

Posts 2
Scott G. Lewis | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 6 2012 6:39 AM

Robert Iversen:

Bob,

As a new customer who is still in my time frame of making monthly payments to be able to afford this software (spending over $600), this upgrade gives me the disappointing feeling that I should have waited.  I feel like I do when I bought my iPad 3 weeks before the new model came out and was stuck with a significantly inferior product.  This seems very disappointing to me, a new customer, just joining the Logos family.  I feel overlooked.

I don't think that's fair. How many months in are you? Did you buy 2 months ago? 4 months ago? If it's sooner - call them. Like you should have done with your iPad, since Apple has a 30 day return policy and you could have switched it out. By the way, the iPad 3 like Logos 4 is far from a "significantly inferior product". Both were replaced by newer products, but both are fantastic. I should know... I have the iPad 3, and up until a couple of days ago, I had Logos 4.

The good news, is you can keep using Logos 4. Soon you get Logos 5, for free, with limited new functionality, for a small crossgrade fee, for lots of new functionality, or if you want tons of new features and new content, you can tack on a new base package to your existing payment plan. 

But you are decidedly not being asked to keep paying for an outdated and replaced product. You are on an installment plan. You spent the $XXX already, but they agreed to defer some of the payments. If you had done this on a credit card, rather than a Logos payment plan, it'd be the same. You'd still be paying off your purchase. My car is now two years out of date, and the newer model is superior in many ways. They even introduced some new features that I wish I could get, such as a hybrid engine as an option. I still pay monthly, for what I already have, however.

Soon, you'll see this happen again. The iPad 5 will be out. Logos 6 will be out. There will be nicer cars than mine.

Posts 1416
Wes Saad | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 6 2012 7:00 AM

Matthew Candler:
they extend the upgrade discount prices to their existing customers first as a primary marketing strategy.

By definition, an upgrade price only goes to existing customers. New customers aren't upgrading. 

Posts 442
Tim Engwer | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 6 2012 10:02 AM

I purchased the Silver upgrade which does not include the Bible Sense Lexicon (did not have enough money to buy the Gold version).  Will this be available to me to purchase at a reasonable price separately down the road so I have all the new L5 features?

Posts 1931
David Thomas | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 6 2012 10:12 AM

Tim Engwer:
Will this be available to me to purchase at a reasonable price separately down the road so I have all the new L5 features?

See Bob's statement at the very beginning of this thread - Final decisions have not been made, it is intended that the grossgrade will have "all/most of the datasets"

Making Disciples!  Logos Ecosystem = Logos8 on Microsoft Surface Pro 4 (Win10), Android app on tablet, FSB on iPhone, [deprecated] Windows App, Proclaim, Faithlife.com, FaithlifeTV via Connect subscription.

Posts 19
Robin Monks | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 6 2012 10:13 AM

Tim Engwer:
I purchased the Silver upgrade which does not include the Bible Sense Lexicon (did not have enough money to buy the Gold version).  Will this be available to me to purchase at a reasonable price separately down the road so I have all the new L5 features?
If that is part of the minimal crossgrade you'll be able to get it at a discount. If not, you'll be waiting for Gold to come on sale for an acceptable price.

Posts 4
John Jordan | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 6 2012 10:43 AM

Thanks Bob for your reply.  This adds clarity your sales and marketing team seem to have failed to convey.

I look forward to less sales pitches and more honest promotions and assurance (with dates and consistent behavior) that my investment into Logos will continue into new versions with simplicity and reliability.

Excited for your new "baby".  I'm also excited to partner with Logos ($110 in pre-pub orders) to help release new content for you to sell.

Please let us know dates when these new options will be available.

Posts 890
Brother Mark | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 6 2012 11:09 AM

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :):
Suggest .......  Thankful for.......

I'm grateful and thankful for you KS4J.... I can't count how many times I've read a post from you that gently encouraged a frustrated user and reminded us all (perhaps me most of all) how very thankful we should be for grace in general and Logos software specifically.  AND for users like you.  Bless you my brother!

 

--Bro. Mark

"I read dead people..."

Posts 119
ManilaDave | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 6 2012 1:08 PM

Many of us have felt a range of emotions over the way the launch of the L5 was handled and have expressed them in no uncertain terms. We all "know" what Bob and his management team should have done and our "should haves" are related to our own interests and expectations. But the reality is none of us knows what issues and concerns Bob and his team were wrestling with, what the capacity of Logos is in terms of what they could role out at any given moment of time and why the decision to launch in this particular way was taken. We just were not standing in his shoes making a decision that would have to include consideration for customers, staff and the families who depend on them, various costs, finance, etc. 

But here's what we do know

  1. Logos has never sold us a bad product. When I first started to explore bible software in the early 90s the store I inquired from told me, "Buy Logos and if you can't afford to wait until you can!" I waited a few months and I bought Logos. That's close to 20 years ago and I've never had a genuine reason to regret that decision. And I've never had to consider an alternative
  2. Customer service and support from Logos for those of us who have had to use it has always been first class. They've always been approachable and as accommodating to our needs as they could be.
  3. Logos has won awards, not only for its products but as an employer too, which gives us an insight into the company we're dealing with.
  4. Bob reads the forums and personally responds to many of the posts. How many CEOs do that?

Bob has been honest with us and told us at least some of the "whys" of the launch. He has put his hands up and admitted he got it wrong. It takes a big person to do that. The kind of responses he has been making to posts indicate that he is genuinely listening to our concerns, hurts and disappointments. 

At the end of the day all of us have to admit admit that in Logos, whether Libronix, Logos 4 or Logos 5 we have a great product that has simplified and improved our study and research. It is precisely because we're so happy with this tool that we're so upset about having to stand in line to get it. We're chaffing at the bit to try out the latest improvements. There is one thing, I think, that we can be certain about. Logos will take to heart the issues we've expressed and future launches will be more to our liking.

Posts 408
Ken Shawver | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 6 2012 1:54 PM

Bob,

As a long time LOGOS user, I greatly appreciate you stepping and helping clarify things that make total sense from within LOGOS, but may be confusing to us on the outside. Your decision to make the software available and sell content is one of the main reasons I started my investment into LOGOS.

Though the packages are at a good price mfor the number of resources. I, like many others, do not have the finances to buy one of those packages. I am glad that you do understand that and look forward to getting the crossgrade. I am hoping that the Minimum Crossgrade will be feasible when it comes out.

I also do not take issues with LOGOS paying the bills because, I for one, want LOGOS to be around for a long time.

Thanks again Bob, as a former Logos Ambassador, and Net Promoter for LOGOS. Have a blessed day.

In Christ,

Ken

Dell Studio 1555; 15.6 True Life LCD; Intel Core 2 Duo T6600 2.20 GHz, 2M Cache, 800 MHz FSB ; 500GB 5400 HDD; 8GB RAM, Win 10, Chrome 70

http://wiki.logos.com/

Posts 442
Tim Engwer | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 6 2012 3:52 PM

Thanks for the clarification.  Am I correct that the only thing I am missing by not upgrading to Gold is the Bible Sense Lexicon?

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Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 6 2012 8:30 PM

Tim Engwer:

Thanks for the clarification.  Am I correct that the only thing I am missing by not upgrading to Gold is the Bible Sense Lexicon?

Effectively, that is correct in terms of features and datasets

The consequence of not having the BSL means that you don't have access to the Sense section in the BWS.

neither, in the short-term do you have access to Septuagint translation in BWS - this currently is available in Diamond up - but this will be added back in in the future.

 

Posts 190
EmileB | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 7 2012 2:22 AM

I have to say, Manila Dave, that your post really was a relief.... the lack of grace displayed in these forums the past few days has been so disappointing and discouraging. Nice to see a well-considered, sane and humble perspective being shared.

Although I understand some of the reactions and emotions involved (although not all), an awful lot of the posts seem to suggest that the posters need to spend more time immersing themselves prayerfully in their CURRENT resources than worrying about upgrading or spending so much time and emotion judging another man's servant or another man's business. And it's been even more frustrating to see others quietly encouraging the fear mongering and slander (almost as if they enjoy doing so). The Bible doesn't have much to say about software, but it does have a lot to say about those who strive to create division between brothers.

For heaven's sake, this is just SOFTWARE. And no matter what someone might feel or how they might disagree about Bob's decisions, or Logos' business, etc. etc. (whatever someone's personal issue might be, however legitimate or illegitimate), Bob and those at Logos are our BROTHERS AND SISTERS... we need to keep that always in mind... and HOW we treat them is of FAR more importance in God's eyes than our personal issues/concerns/gripes, even if we happen to be right. It does no good being "right" if we go about it in a way that is dishonoring to them or the Lord.

It's great for us to feel like we know better than Bob about the challenges inherent in running his own business ... (this is why I appreciated your post so much... few have been willing to credit that Bob has a lot of concerns to consider that maybe we don't know about)... We all make great Monday morning quarterbacks. It's easy for us to look at the release and say they should have done this or that... would we truly have seen those things ahead of time had we been there? All of them? Maybe yes... and maybe, just maybe, no. But Bob and his crew are human beings... and like us all, they aren't perfect or omniscient. Many of the posts seem to infer that they should be. All things considered they have done a first rate job.

And do you know what I really appreciate? EVERY RESPONSE FROM ANYONE AT LOGOS... and ESPECIALLY from Bob... has been gracious and generous and sensitive and humble... acknowledging in hindsight the mistakes and displaying an eagerness to learn from it and to set things right... despite a WHOLE lot of abuse and slander. I would like to think that I would have as much graciousness in their shoes, without sneaking in some snarky response. But I probably wouldn't be. Kudos to all of you guys! Bob, I grow in respect towards you daily. You're a good man.

Speaking of which... kudos to the MVPS!!... wow... they have been so helpful and patient and humble... repeating the same answers again and again and again and again and.... (all the more impressive when it seems people haven't even been willing to read the posts that have led up to their own, which would have addressed their concerns... I can't understand why folks would "invest" so much in a product like they are claiming, and not spend the time to read about the issue before slandering the company and maligning their brothers... most of the complaints and concerns have been because people have jumped to inaccurate conclusions).

Am I perfectly satisfied with the roll out of L5? With L4? With Logos? Marketing? etc., etc? Are all my personal issues and preferences being catered to perfectly? Nope. And if we have concerns or issues, yes, they SHOULD be expressed. But Bob has a million of us users to keep in mind and (God help him!) try to please. We are a community, with a variety of needs, desires and preferences. And we're not ... none of us... going to have EVERYTHING we want, right NOW when we want it. It's not Logos. And it's not life. I'm trying to teach my four year old daughter the same thing.

SO thanks, ManilaDave. Great post. Thought you should know it was appreciated.

Posts 190
EmileB | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 7 2012 3:04 AM

Robert Iversen:

 This seems very disappointing to me, a new customer, just joining the Logos family.  I feel overlooked. Just sharing my thoughts as I would keep paying for an outdated and replaced product.  This was not for content but the whole package.

My dear brother... I'm trying to understand... truly... where you are coming from. It's very hard for me. Maybe (sincerely) you can help me understand better why you and others are feeling "overlooked"? Others have expressed feeling like they are "devalued" as existing customers, like they are "second class", etc. etc. I truly don't understand this.

Let's say you are a new customer. You can go to the Logos website, and buy a package, and receive L5 and the new datasets and features. 

Let's say you are an old/existing customer. You can go to the website, and buy an upgrade package, and receive L5 and the new datasets and features.

Let's say that you are a new customer and can't afford to buy a package right now and receive L5 and the new datasets and features. The free L5 engine is coming, as well as  the minimal crossgrade which you can purchase that will give you the new datasets and features. You can get everything you want then... and don't have to pay for anything you don't want or can't use.

Let's say that you are an old/existing customer, and can't afford to buy an upgrade package right now and receive L5 and the new datasets and features. The free L5 engine is coming, as well as  the minimal crossgrade which you can purchase that will give you the new datasets and features. You can get everything you want then... and don't have to pay for anything you don't want or can't use.

SOOO... how are you being treated differently... better or worse... than anyone else? How are you being "overlooked"? Devalued? Second class? It's NOT like someone else is sneaking to the front of the line and getting something that you aren't. You can do the same thing... right now. If you can't afford to do that... and guess what... most of us can't, whether we are old/existing customers or new ones... that's okay... you can wait and receive it anyway. No one is getting access to something that you don't have an equal opportunity to access, and at the same time that they are.

You aren't "losing" anything, or receiving an inferior product. As others have mentioned, because of how folks at Logos do things, you are getting a much BETTER product than you knew about when you made your investment. Imagine that you bought your car, and are making payments, and Ford or GM or whoever came to you a few months later (or a few years later) and said... oh, by the way... we're going to GIVE you (no cost) a brand new engine that works even better and that has even more features than the car you bought. Would you be complaining or disppointed or feel "overlooked" or undervalued in that case? This really isn't any different.

In fact, you actually get a BETTER deal, in my opinion, and in the opinion of a number of others on these forums, than someone walking in brand new off the street. Why? Because your package likely included some higher caliber resources than what you may find in the newer packages (admittedly, that's a subjective statement... and I don't know what package you originally bought and what your needs may be). But at least in my case (a LONG time user with a LOT invested), I'm getting the best of both worlds... even if I can't afford to upgrade right now. I get to keep all of the high quality products I bought, get a brand new slick engine for free, and have the whole package run way better than what I had before. Sweet.

So you aren't paying for an outdated and replaced product. You're getting an even better "package" than you thought you were, at no charge (the free engine)... and can get access(through the minimal crossgrade) to a bunch of NEW features and datasets for a very small cost (like adding a new state-of-the art GPS and satellite radio to that car of yours that wasn't even available technologically or ready for release by the manufacturer back when you made your original purchase). 

The reality, my friend, is that technology moves on, and always will. Whatever we buy today will be "replaced" by something new tomorrow. That shiny new car you just bought plunges in value through depreciation the second you drive it off the lot. Logos has done us all a good deal by ensuring that that car we bought from them stays shiny, suped up, and tuned up for the rest of your life.... for free. And if you want to add some state of the art bells and whistles and accessories as they become available, you can do that too. Don't begrudge them getting paid a (small) amount for providing those extras to you (and the rest of us)... they are worth far more than they will be charging (if they aren't to you, you don't have to buy them after all)... You'll get a great value, and they and their families will get to eat, and they'll be enabled to keep your car running in great shape for years to come. How is that not a good investment?

So brother, be encourged, and be content!

Posts 10667
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Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 7 2012 3:19 AM

EmileB:
SO thanks, ManilaDave. Great post. Thought you should know it was appreciated.

And a huge thinks to you Emile. Both posts were much needed and deeply appreciated—by me at least.

EmileB:
Speaking of which... kudos to the MVPS!!

On behalf of me and my fellow volunteers, thank you very much.

Posts 22356
Forum MVP
Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 7 2012 4:24 AM

Jack Caviness:

EmileB:
Speaking of which... kudos to the MVPS!!

On behalf of me and my fellow volunteers, thank you very much.

Indeed. Thank you - it is appreciated

Graham 

 

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