LEB: Strange English phrase to my ears

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JimTowler | Forum Activity | Posted: Fri, Dec 28 2012 2:14 PM

In the Lexham English Bible, I just read the below in John 10 and verse 12. It seems really strange to my ears "whose own the sheep are not".

For example , NET has instead "and does not own the sheep".

LEB John 10

11 “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. 12 The hired hand, who is not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, sees the wolf approaching and abandons the sheep and runs away—and the wolf seizes them and scatters them*—13 because he is a hired hand and ⌊he is not concerned⌋c about the sheep. 

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Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 28 2012 2:30 PM

Hi JimT

JimT:
In the Lexham English Bible, I just read the below in John 10 and verse 12. It seems really strange to my ears "whose own the sheep are not".

It was fascinating to see this - it reminded me of the words I remembered from the King James version from years ago.

With the word for "own" in this verse being an adjective and the verb being the word translated "are" the LEB is conveying the underlying sense of the original Greek, in line with its underlying desire for transparency to the original text.

You get the same rendering in the RSV as well.

Graham

 

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JRS | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 28 2012 2:32 PM

JimT:
"whose own the sheep are not"

Perhaps Yoda translated it, did he?     

JRS has left the building.

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George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 28 2012 3:39 PM

JimT:

In the Lexham English Bible, I just read the below in John 10 and verse 12. It seems really strange to my ears "whose own the sheep are not".

For example , NET has instead "and does not own the sheep".

LEB John 10

11 “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. 12 The hired hand, who is not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, sees the wolf approaching and abandons the sheep and runs away—and the wolf seizes them and scatters them*—13 because he is a hired hand and ⌊he is not concerned⌋c about the sheep. 

I assume you understand that "whose own the sheep are not" simply indicates that the hired hand does not own the sheep.  That said, it brings to mind (don't ask why) the old saying "a preposition is not a proper word to end a sentence with."  Smile  In one idiolect a phrase may sound acceptable while in another it does not.  You realize that the British still haven't learned to speak proper English like we Americans.  Wink 

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

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Milford Charles Murray | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 28 2012 4:36 PM

George Somsel:
You realize that the British still haven't learned to speak proper English like we Americans.

Peace, George!     If I wanted to be reactive, I would say, "Where does that leave us poor Canadians, half way between you two!  *smile*

                                If I wanted to be proactive, I would say, "Look North; and you will find a very proper English indeed!"

                     This was not originally "Canadian," however, it's my idea of English that really communicates, eh???

All People that on Earth Do Dwell

1 All people that on earth do dwell,

Sing to the Lord with cheerful voice;

Him serve with fear, His praise forth tell;

Come ye before Him and rejoice.

2 The Lord, ye know, is God indeed:

Without our aid He did us make;

We are His flock, He doth us feed,

And for His sheep He doth us take.

3 O enter then His gates with praise,

Approach with joy His courts unto;

Praise, laud, and bless His name always,

For it is seemly so to do.

4 For why? The Lord our God is good;

His mercy is forever sure;

His truth at all times firmly stood,

And shall from age to age endure.   (and for any "neophytes," what is the Scriptural Reference for this ancient hymn?)

Philippians 4:  4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........

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DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 28 2012 4:37 PM

Of course, as usual, the Old Syriac has the superior reading 'But the hireling is not reliable, for the sheep are not his. ...'  I can't imagine anyone entrusting their sheep to a hireling that's not a shepherd.  Even the sheepdogs know that.

AYB-John demonstrates the opposite thought: 'There is an interesting parallel in the early 2nd-century a.d. Jewish apocalyptic work IV Ezra 5:18: Do not desert us as a shepherd does (who leaves) his flock in the power of harmful wolves.'

So maybe the criticality is the 'good' shepherd.

"God will save his fallen angels and their broken wings He'll mend."

Posts 1367
JimTowler | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 28 2012 7:26 PM

Thanks for the various feedback. I never actually added a question so my original post was just a statement I guess.

I think maybe Yoda might have had an overriding vote in the final text, yes.

I'm on my iPad so its not so easy to check a whole range of translations and explore interlinears etc. I expect the LEB does in fact follow the greek very close, but its not great flowing English.

Here in New Zealand, we have a strong mix of both British and Amercian tv and books, so there are times British seems odd and funny to my ear, and other times when North American seems just plain wrong!

ESV uses "at table" a number of times and no matter what, it grates on me as wrong usage. No matter as long as I can understand. I still can't really read KJV - it might as well be another language.

I will be interested to see what others might yet post below ...

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George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 28 2012 8:24 PM

Milford Charles Murray:
This was not originally "Canadian," however, it's my idea of English that really communicates, eh???

You see, Canuks are just Americans with hearing problems.  Why else would they always be saying "Eh?"  Wink  Big Smile

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

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Bruce Dunning | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 28 2012 8:30 PM

George Somsel:

Milford Charles Murray:
This was not originally "Canadian," however, it's my idea of English that really communicates, eh???

You see, Canuks are just Americans with hearing problems.  Why else would they always be saying "Eh?"  Wink  Big Smile

What do you mean eh? Smile

Using adventure and community to challenge young people to continually say "yes" to God

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DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 30 2012 7:24 AM

Apparently 'good' shepherds are not easy to find. This was in our paper this morning:

"C.H. Schulz is in from his range on the Colorado River, telling of quite a loss. A negligent herder allowed a herd to go into a canyon where a small stream of water was frozen over. The sheep, in attempting to cross, broke through the ice. Eighty-four head drowned. "

Demonstrates sheep-y behavior. And not having a good 'herder' too.

"God will save his fallen angels and their broken wings He'll mend."

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fgh | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 30 2012 8:48 AM

Wow, if that is correct English, I guess my funny over-literal translation of that hymn the other day can't have been more than half as unidiomatic as I thought it was...Stick out tongue

"The Christian way of life isn't so much an assignment to be performed, as a gift to be received."  Wilfrid Stinissen

Mac Pro OS 10.9.

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Rich DeRuiter | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 30 2012 9:10 AM

Milford Charles Murray:
(and for any "neophytes," what is the Scriptural Reference for this ancient hymn?)

Hardly a neophyte. But recognized the words, the Scriptural reference, and the tune that goes with it. The name of the tune carries a hint about it's Scriptural reference: "Old Hundredth."

Most know the tune, even if they don't know the name of the tune, and have sung it many times, in many contexts. Few know this text, which sounds like poorly constructed English, but dates from the mid 1500's (so 'normal' English then perhaps it was?).

 Help links: WIKI;  Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)

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Milford Charles Murray | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 30 2012 9:21 AM

Richard DeRuiter:

Milford Charles Murray:
(and for any "neophytes," what is the Scriptural Reference for this ancient hymn?)

Hardly a neophyte. But recognized the words, the Scriptural reference, and the tune that goes with it. The name of the tune carries a hint about it's Scriptural reference: "Old Hundredth."

Most know the tune, even if they don't know the name of the tune, and have sung it many times, in many contexts. Few know this text, which sounds like poorly constructed English, but dates from the mid 1500's (so 'normal' English then perhaps it was?).

Peace, Richard!

  Blessings and Joy for 2013 -- for You           and Your Family                  and Your Ministry!

             You are indeed hardly a neophyte!    *smile*     I declare you the "winner" of name this hymn!   

                               Well-Done!

                    Your prize is a few minutes of Great Music on YouTube.  Brother George Somsel would appreciate this also, I would think!  Psalm 100!     A Psalm that perhaps all should consider learning in the KJV???

                       Your prize  :          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7DibkDQbzEo

 

Philippians 4:  4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........

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