Can you import e-books purchased from SONY into LOGOS?

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This post has 55 Replies | 3 Followers

Posts 12
Timothy J. Minter | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Feb 6 2010 4:07 PM

Jack Caviness:

Valentin Suprun:
EULA enforceability is a wide-open question with more wrinkles than a prize Shar-Pei.

Should be really be more concerned with what we can get away with than with what we agreed to when we purchased the product?

If it were a mutually-agreed upon contract, as opposed to a "license agreement" that I only saw after paying for the software, you might have a point.  Speaking as a legal professional, I never agreed to give up my legal rights to format-shift **for personal use**, and will continue to do as I please on my own machine - although you should continue to do as your conscience requires.

Posts 3742
BillS | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Feb 6 2010 4:18 PM

Timothy J. Minter:

Under what statute is it illegal to change the format of a book I lawfully purchased ***for personal use only***?

I'm not sure you really want an answer. If you don't, read no further. If you do, it looks like there are 2 parts of the Logos EULA that some who converted a copyrighted Logos book would violate. (Going from Sony to Logos, you'd probably also need to consult the Sony EULA.)

 The Logos EULA can be found here: http://www.logos.com/ArticleViewer/440 

And this is what looks to be applicable (emphasis added):

THINGS YOU MAY NOT DO

The Software, Content, and Documentation are protected by United States copyright laws and international treaties. You must treat the Software, Content, and Documentation like any other copyrighted material--for example a book. You may not:

- copy the Documentation,

- copy the Software or Content except to make archival or backup copies as provided above,

- modify or adapt the Software or merge it into another program,

- reverse engineer, disassemble, decompile or make any attempt to discover the source code of the Software,

- place the Software or Content onto a server so that it is accessible via a public network such as the Internet,

- sublicense, rent, lease or lend any portion of the Software, Content, or Documentation, or

- reverse engineer, disassemble, decompile or make any attempt to "unlock" or circumvent the digital copyright protection of the Content.

Grace & Peace,
Bill


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Forum MVP
Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Feb 6 2010 4:38 PM

Timothy J. Minter:
Speaking as a legal professional

That explains a lot to me.

Posts 12
Timothy J. Minter | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Feb 7 2010 5:55 AM

A EULA that I  never saw until **after** purchasing the software is of questionable legal enforceability.

Posts 2793
J.R. Miller | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Feb 7 2010 8:07 AM

Timothy J. Minter:
A EULA that I  never saw until **after** purchasing the software...
What?  Someone in the legal field who didn't read the fine print.. Wink

Timothy J. Minter:
is of questionable legal enforceability.
The way lawyers work today, what moral or legal code isn't "questionable"? Sad

My Books in Logos & FREE Training

Posts 323
Doug | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Feb 7 2010 8:07 AM

Isn't this whole thing just silly?  I understand the spirit of the copyright laws are to prevent us from making copies of our material and freely distributing it to everyone we know.  But to tell me that I can't take media that I own and transfer to any device that I also own is ridiculous.   It's so easy for me to copy a logos document into word and save it as a pdf file and then load it into my Kindle DX.  All I have effectively done is transferred it from one screen to another (which happens to be easier on my eyes and useful in more convenient places).  I haven't gave it to anyone or sold it for profit.  I've just made the delivery easier for me.  And if I own the technology to do that and choose to do it without hurting anyone's sales, then what harm have I done?  What law have I broken?  Doesn't the Sony e-reader also support pdf files?  I just don't see the big deal here.  We want to argue of EULAs? 

It's different if I'm giving the books away or selling them but to use them for my own personal enjoyment . . . I see no harm.

Posts 2793
J.R. Miller | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Feb 7 2010 8:27 AM

Doug:
media that I own
In all seriousness (compared to my previous post), that word "own" is what is in doubt.  In that sense, Timothy is right.  The technology is changing so fast that copyright laws just have not kept up and older laws don't seem to have any direct application.  Think about it, even a law written 5 years ago could not properly take into consideration the Kindle or iPhone or Sony or iPad and how technology should be used with e-books. 

On one side, the publishers say you and I do not "own" the book and therefore cannot copy across platforms.

On the other side, the consumer just wants to read in the most convenient way possible.

In the middle, are the courts where a lot more lawsuits will happen, lawyers will get rich, and then there will be legal "clarity" (if there is such a thing these days).  

In the meantime, I think folks should read the Logos EULA, pray, and ask the Holy Spirit for guidance on how to be faithful to it.

PS

I am posting this as a consumer, and a Christian brother, NOT a Logos employee.  All of my posts in this thread are my opinion only.  Unless you hear from Bob or Dan, please do not misconstrue my post as "official" in any way.

My Books in Logos & FREE Training

Posts 320
John Bowling | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Feb 7 2010 10:03 AM

Joe Miller:
In all seriousness (compared to my previous post), that word "own" is what is in doubt.

The fact that there is such ambiguity regarding an item I purchase merely demonstrates the absurdity of copy right laws and the madness of the limits that publishers have gone to in their greed. Can you imagine the same sort of debate over what I can do with a couch that I purchase or whether I "own" it? Ever since the invention of the printing press publishers have acted like children in their attempts to monopolize. No one "owns" ideas (much less "expressions").

perspectivelyspeaking.wordpress.com

Posts 376
Dan Sheppard | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Feb 7 2010 12:14 PM

John Bowling:
Can you imagine the same sort of debate over what I can do with a couch that I purchase or whether I "own" it?

 

John, it's not your couch.  You just bought the right to SIT on it.

And don't try to post it to the Internet.  That would be illegal, sofa as I can tell.

Do any of you remember the word, "davenport"???

 

 

Posts 3742
BillS | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Feb 7 2010 8:06 PM

Dan Sheppard:

Do any of you remember the word, "davenport"???

What state was it in?Big Smile

Grace & Peace,
Bill


MSI GF63 8RD, I-7 8850H, 32GB RAM, 1TB SSD, 2TB HDD, NVIDIA GTX 1050Max
iPhone 12 Pro Max 512Gb
Fire 10HD 64GB 7th Gen

Posts 42
Edward hyndman | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 8 2010 5:16 PM

Thanks for the insight and link re copyright, which seems to me a complex business. I realise that when you purchase a book you have not bought the right to copy the pages and bind them and sell or give them away. I can understand why that would be annoying for the book producer who wants to sell more copies, not be outsold or undersold by "pirates". On the other hand, I'm not sure its good business sense to make it difficult for the user who has bought an electronic copy to be unable to "move" THAT copy around. (Say from Logos to a sony reader, to the laptop, to their netbook, phone....) Logos may be helping a little with that since you can access from computer and an iphone if you have one. I wish there was either a standard format available across various hardware, or the ability to buy "copies" for several formats all at once in one (reasonable) price.... ahhh maybe one day we will get there.....

Posts 352
Mike & Rachel Aubrey | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 8 2010 5:56 PM

John Bowling:
I purchase merely demonstrates the absurdity of copy right laws and the madness of the limits that publishers have gone to in their greed.

What greed? Christian publishers are struggling to keep their heads above water.

http://community.logos.com/forums/p/11152/88865.aspx#88865

Posts 323
Doug | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Feb 9 2010 7:36 AM

Joe Miller:
In all seriousness (compared to my previous post), that word "own" is what is in doubt.  In that sense, Timothy is right.  The technology is changing so fast that copyright laws just have not kept up and older laws don't seem to have any direct application.  Think about it, even a law written 5 years ago could not properly take into consideration the Kindle or iPhone or Sony or iPad and how technology should be used with e-books.

I hear what you're saying.  It just really seems absurd to me that I can read a book on my laptop screen, my desktop screen, or my iPod Touch screen; but DON"T YOU DARE LOOK AT THAT ON THE KINDLE BECAUSE THAT'S AGAINST THE LAW!  I mean really!  How rediculous. 

I would never suggest that anyone give the books away or sell them.  That harms the authors and the publishers and it's easy to see that is wrong.  But it harms no one for me to look at my Kindle screen to read what I could read on my laptop.  That for me is just not an issue.  I get the same blessing from the Lord if I'm reading "The Handbook to Bible Study" on my Kindle that I get when I read it on my laptop.  I learn the same thing.  I sense the same presence from God.  I have never sensed any kind of conviction or displeasure from the Lord for doing this. 

Again, I have legally paid for the technology to do this and since it harms no one, I just can't see the problem.  The Logos higher ups would never be able to agree with this because of contracts they entered into with publishers.  But off-the-record, I doubt any of them would have a problem with it as long as I keep everything in my possession.  And let's face it, if someone stole my Kindle, they probably wouldn't want to read Bible books on it anyway.

Posts 3742
BillS | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Feb 9 2010 2:05 PM

John Bowling:
The fact that there is such ambiguity regarding an item I purchase merely demonstrates the absurdity of copy right laws and the madness of the limits that publishers have gone to in their greed.

The fact that we don't like a law doesn't mean it isn't a law...

In my posts to you, Doug, & others, I'm not trying to make the news or interpret the news... That's Logos' job, since it's their EULA. I'm only trying to report the news...

IMO, what you say makes more sense than the law does. And it's very different from owning a paper book.

However, as a retired Boeing Info Systems Manager, I've been living in that world (implications of digital copyright law) for over 20 years... And as a result of unpopular actions I've had to take with my former user community, I believe the counsel you're being offered is accurate.

As several have tried to say to you, it's truly a matter of conscience with you... as it is whether you obey the 60mph guidelines that are occasionally posted to irritate us. Wink

Many blessings to you!

Grace & Peace,
Bill


MSI GF63 8RD, I-7 8850H, 32GB RAM, 1TB SSD, 2TB HDD, NVIDIA GTX 1050Max
iPhone 12 Pro Max 512Gb
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Posts 323
Doug | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Feb 10 2010 6:41 AM

BillS:
As several have tried to say to you, it's truly a matter of conscience with you... as it is whether you obey the 60mph guidelines that are occasionally posted to irritate us.

I agree.  Again, and let me be perfectly clear about this.  I'm not encouraging anyone to do anything that would hurt the authors, the publishers, Logos, or any other company who provides a means to view digital content.  I guess you should just do this privately if it doesn't violate your conscience.  If it does, then you shouldn't do it at all.  This is one of those kinds of things that drive me batty because I don't want to break "the law."  But this is one of those absurd laws that tries to prevent us from using our technology how we see fit.  I hope I'm making myself clear.  I almost wish I hadn't posted anything because I sure wouldn't want to lead anyone in the wrong direction.

Posts 3742
BillS | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Feb 10 2010 1:03 PM

Doug:
This is one of those kinds of things that drive me batty because I don't want to break "the law."  But this is one of those absurd laws that tries to prevent us from using our technology how we see fit.

Therein is the conscience problem....

IMO (worth exactly what it costs youBig Smile), the real answer is getting the law changed, not breaking it because I disagree with it. YMMV.

This said, I'm going to turn loose of this thread.

Blessings!

Grace & Peace,
Bill


MSI GF63 8RD, I-7 8850H, 32GB RAM, 1TB SSD, 2TB HDD, NVIDIA GTX 1050Max
iPhone 12 Pro Max 512Gb
Fire 10HD 64GB 7th Gen

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