Bible Sense Help

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Pastor Michael Huffman | Forum Activity | Posted: Tue, Jan 8 2013 9:36 AM

Could someone explain to me in the Bible Sense Lexicon when you are studying the word "demonstration" (preaching through Philippians, looking at 1:28), how in the word relationships you get from "entertainment" to "proof of virginity" in the word graph? Thanks...

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 8 2013 2:32 PM

I suspect this whole concept reflects BSL's non-biblical origin:-

Entertainment

    Presentation

         Demonstration

None of this BSL presentation fits within the concept of Entertainment, but would fit Demonstration under another concept(s), provided it included examples taken from use of the Greek lemmas.

Dave
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Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 8 2013 2:46 PM

I'm guessing MJ could eloquently discuss the issue in great depth.


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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 8 2013 6:42 PM

Pastor Michael Huffman:
Could someone explain to me in the Bible Sense Lexicon

Simple, it's a coding error. Demonstration should have the sense that falls under logical demonstration. (There are 5 different senses of demonstration in the secular base to which Dave refers.).

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 8 2013 6:58 PM

What translation are you using? The Darby Bible is the only one I have with this wording - my top five all use words that link correctly into "knowledge: at some point.

Logos seems to have conflated the senses of demonstration - perhaps because it's use is so uncommon.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 8 2013 11:29 PM

Hi MJ

MJ. Smith:

What translation are you using? The Darby Bible is the only one I have with this wording - my top five all use words that link correctly into "knowledge: at some point.

Logos seems to have conflated the senses of demonstration - perhaps because it's use is so uncommon.

If I understand your question correctly, I can see this in the NIV84 (as shown below) and in the NRSV.

The first screenshot is what I see in the NIV84, the second is what happens when I click on the word in the sense line

 

I'm guessing I might be missing your point!

Graham

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 9 2013 1:33 AM

Ah, yes, I'd forgotten that I demoted the NRSV in favor of not crashing.Embarrassed

---- on the basis of ....

“Omen” represents a rare Greek word found in the New Testament only here, in Rom 3:25–26, and in 2 Cor 8:24. It signifies a proof based on factual evidence, so it is not simply a “foreshadow” (NAB), but a “sure sign” (NEB JB Gpd) or “clear omen (Mft RSV). TEV makes it a verbal statement, this will prove.

I-Jin Loh and Eugene Albert Nida, A Handbook on Paul’s Letter to the Philippians, UBS Handbook Series, 42 (New York: United Bible Societies, 1995).

---- I'd still question the tagging here.

In comparison, Deuteronomy which uses the sense of demonstration ---> proof of virginity, the context is clear that it is demonstration in some (unspecified) physical form. If Logos wishes to argue that the concept is "demonstration" in an presentation sense rather than in a logical proof sense, then I would argue that it ought to be coded at a level parallel to "proof of virginity" ... something like "omen proof"

Unfortunately, I don't know enough Greek to know if my argument holds water. However, I do know that it is difficult to support entertainment --> presentation --> demonstration in the English base of the sense lexicon as entertainment has as a defining attribute a sense of amusement or diversion which clearly does not trickle down to proof in a court of law (the Deuteronomy case).

 

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Pastor Michael Huffman | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 9 2013 7:05 AM

MJ. Smith:

What translation are you using? The Darby Bible is the only one I have with this wording - my top five all use words that link correctly into "knowledge: at some point.

Logos seems to have conflated the senses of demonstration - perhaps because it's use is so uncommon.

I am using the ESV

Pastor Michael Huffman, Th.A Th.B Th.M

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Pastor Michael Huffman | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 9 2013 7:10 AM

Graham Criddle:

Hi MJ

MJ. Smith:

What translation are you using? The Darby Bible is the only one I have with this wording - my top five all use words that link correctly into "knowledge: at some point.

Logos seems to have conflated the senses of demonstration - perhaps because it's use is so uncommon.

If I understand your question correctly, I can see this in the NIV84 (as shown below) and in the NRSV.

The first screenshot is what I see in the NIV84, the second is what happens when I click on the word in the sense line

 

I'm guessing I might be missing your point!

Graham

I guess, Graham, I am trying to figure out this report.....4 years of Greek and this report is leaving me a little baffled. How does one get on the discussion of demonstration from entertainment to "proof of virginity" and I am looking for someone to show me how, as a Pastor and writer, that benefits me in my original language analysis. Thanks. 

Pastor Michael Huffman, Th.A Th.B Th.M

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Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 9 2013 12:18 PM

Hi Michael

Pastor Michael Huffman:
I guess, Graham, I am trying to figure out this report.....4 years of Greek and this report is leaving me a little baffled. How does one get on the discussion of demonstration from entertainment to "proof of virginity" and I am looking for someone to show me how, as a Pastor and writer, that benefits me in my original language analysis. Thanks. 

Sorry but at the moment I would agree with MJ that it looks like a tagging issue.

Really need some input from Logos on this one.

Graham 

 

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 9 2013 2:07 PM

Pastor Michael Huffman:
How does one get on the discussion of demonstration from entertainment to "proof of virginity"

As I said, this is a coding error based on an incorrect assignment of "demonstration"  The intended path for "proof of virginity" is similar to:

due process --> judgment (determination --> judgment --> demonstration -- proof of virginity OR

information (knowledge) --> evidence, grounds --> proof --> proof of virginity (this one is in the BSL)

I would suggest that you move over one word to destruction (act) to explore what the BSL provides. The easiest way to start is to look at the list of words that can express the same concept. Unlike a standard list of synonyms, these are specific to this sense of your word ... in previous standard references of synonyms you had to guess which sense of a word a synonym went to. The second element to note is that the diagram shows a hierarchy of words based on relationships of the sort ... is a kind of, is an instance of, is a member of, is a part of, is a member of. This helps you understand the domain of the word. Both elements, of course, help you to understand the definition of the word more accurately. And, because this is a multilingual BSL it helps to delineate the differences between similar words in Hebrew, Greek and English.

As to how you use the information as a pastor and writer, I fear I'm not qualified to say. But I am certain that if you look at it regularly for a couple of weeks you will become familiar enough with it to understand its power ... and you'll find your personal use for it.  I should qualify that with a proviso that you don't hit too many coding errors like this.Wink

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Sean Boisen | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 9 2013 5:04 PM

I agree that this looks like a data error. I believe we may have connected the Greek sense of ἔνδειξις to the wrong English sense: it should be the one defined as "proof by a process of argument or a series of propositions proving an asserted conclusion." That would then make it not a kind of "entertainment", but instead a kind of "proof" (and then the connection to "proof of virginity" makes more sense).  The hierarchy may need a little detangling here as well.

We'll give this another look.

 

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 9 2013 5:23 PM

Thanks, Sean. I'm looking forward to the day we have an automated way to report these errors.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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