New PC advice

Anyone like to give me some hardware advice? I'm likely to purchase a new PC soon. I've already settled on Ivy Bridge and 16GB RAM. But my budget could either give me:

An i3 2120 with 1GB nVidia GeForce GT 620, and an OCZ Agility 3 SSD (SATA-III).
An i5 3570 with 2GB nVidia GeForce GT 640, and a 15000rpm HDD.

I'll be driving two 1920x1080 monitors. I don't play games (although I have ordered Elite: Dangerous!). Logos is the only application that really pushes my existing system, although like many people I multi-task quite heavily.

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John Kight

Personally I would go with the first option. The SSD is giong to give you the speed and response you are looking for. However, 15000RMP isnt bad.

toughski

Mark, I totally disagree with the first reply. The SECOND option is a better one - better processor (for multitasking), better graphics card (to handle extra pixels of the second monitor). As far as SSD - this is a lot easier to upgrade in the future, than processor or videocard. 15000RPM would be plenty fast and is a great trade-off.

Joseph Turner

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/454979#Comment_454979

I would go with the second choice. I would start with the faster processor every time. The fact that it has the faster video card is a bonus. The only downside is the HDD, which is easily switched out whenever you get the time/money. That said, I would probably go ahead and buy it and switch it out early (if the system is pre-built???), so that I would not have to make all of the software changes later on. You don't happen to have an SSD upgrade in your current PC do you?

I am assuming you are building vs. buying (16gb Ram is usually not standard)? If so, then I would go with 8GB ram, and spend the extra, along with what you are already spending on the HDD, and get an SSD.

Mark Barnes

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/454981#Comment_454981

Thanks for the replies so far.

I am assuming you are building vs. buying (16gb Ram is usually not standard)? If so, then I would go with 8GB ram, and spend the extra, along with what you are already spending on the HDD, and get an SSD.

I'm going for custom pre-built (I choose the spec, they do the build). My problem with the SSD is that to make it worthwhile it needs to be a decent size. SSD performance diminishes significantly when they are full, and as a minimum I'm going to need Logos (36Gb), Windows (21Gb), ProgramData (5Gb) and the AppData folder (13Gb) on the SSD. That really means a 240Gb drive, which will cost me £150. The 10,000rpm drive I already have, so that's zero cost and the 16Gb upgrade (from 8Gb) is only £35. (I said it was 15,000rpm, but I've checked and it's only 10,000.)

For those interested, the full spec of the two machines is here:

16Gb, i5, 2GB GT640, no HDD http://www.computerplanet.co.uk/custom-pc-quote.php?id=184007
8Gb, i3, 1GB GT620, SSD http://www.computerplanet.co.uk/custom-pc-quote.php?id=184008 (now adjusted to 8Gb to keep the price the same as above).

Joseph Turner

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/454995#Comment_454995

Oh, I understand. Just keep in mind the price of an eventual processor/video card upgrade vs. the ssd upgrade. I would just upgrade later (actually, I would stretch my budget now [:D] ).

Eric Weiss

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/454995#Comment_454995

I may hold out for Haswell, though I could use both a new desktop and a laptop now.

Haswell

Randy W. Sims

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/454995#Comment_454995

16Gb, i5, 2GB GT640, no HDD http://www.computerplanet.co.uk/custom-pc-quote.php?id=184007

8Gb, i3, 1GB GT620, SSD http://www.computerplanet.co.uk/custom-pc-quote.php?id=184008 (now adjusted to 8Gb to keep the price the same as above).

8GB RAM isn't enough for a desktop. I would consider 12 GB a minimum for desktop, to be future proof. I've got a Windows 7 system with 12 GB. Most of the time it's at 55% to 70% RAM usage with just Logos, Browser (Chrome is a monster here, sometimes using 3-4GB), and one or two other apps running. Granted, I also have a number of background processes running (like AV, etc), but I keep mine pretty optimized. Open a few more big apps like photoshop and it can start climbing higher. If apps continue to grow in RAM usage as they have in the past then in a year or two I'll probably be closely approaching or exceeding 100% RAM usage.

I would recommend the first option. It will give you something you can be comfortable with for the next 3-4 year easily, if not a bit longer. IMO, It's the better investment. Later add a SSD in addition to the hard drive and move Logos to it. That will be my next upgrade on my desktop, an SSD for Logos. I'm pretty sure I will just keep Windows on the HDD; I haven't convinced myself of any real benefit of moving Windows to the SSD.

Geo Philips

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/454995#Comment_454995

Hi Mark,

I run an i5 Sandy Bridge with a 180 gig ssd just for windows, logos,browsers and office and I have a Caviar black HDD for other apps. This might be a good solution for you too, especially since older gen SSds from Intel and Samsung at the 180 Gig range tend to be cheap.

Best of luck!

Fred Greco

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/454995#Comment_454995

Thanks for the replies so far.

I am assuming you are building vs. buying (16gb Ram is usually not standard)? If so, then I would go with 8GB ram, and spend the extra, along with what you are already spending on the HDD, and get an SSD.

I'm going for custom pre-built (I choose the spec, they do the build). My problem with the SSD is that to make it worthwhile it needs to be a decent size. SSD performance diminishes significantly when they are full, and as a minimum I'm going to need Logos (36Gb), Windows (21Gb), ProgramData (5Gb) and the AppData folder (13Gb) on the SSD. That really means a 240Gb drive, which will cost me £150. The 10,000rpm drive I already have, so that's zero cost and the 16Gb upgrade (from 8Gb) is only £35. (I said it was 15,000rpm, but I've checked and it's only 10,000.)

For those interested, the full spec of the two machines is here:

16Gb, i5, 2GB GT640, no HDD http://www.computerplanet.co.uk/custom-pc-quote.php?id=184007

8Gb, i3, 1GB GT620, SSD http://www.computerplanet.co.uk/custom-pc-quote.php?id=184008 (now adjusted to 8Gb to keep the price the same as above).

Mark,

Have you considered a smallish (128GB or 256GB) SSD with a larger "storage" drive (~500GB) in what would normally be the optical drive bay? You could then buy an inexpensive ($20 or so) external optical drive for the rare ocassions (at least for me) that you need it.

Let me say this, I am running a i7-3720Q (2.6GHz) machine with 16GB of RAM. It is a great Thinkpad. But the single biggest difference in performance I experienced was when I changed out the 500GB 7200RPM HD for a Samsung 256GB SSD. The speed difference was phenomenal. So much so that I bought one for my wife's 2 year old IdeaPad (with an i3 processor). Again, the difference was like night and day. It is like a brand new computer in terms of speed.

Joseph Turner

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/455005#Comment_455005

I'm pretty sure I will just keep Windows on the HDD; I haven't convinced myself of any real benefit of moving Windows to the SSD.

Shayne, I would not advise this. Windows and its related components are by far the most active things going on in your computer. The benefits are faster start/restart times, and overall improved performance. It will also make all programs that are in the default programs folders run faster (assuming you have not already moved your programs folder to another drive).

Randy W. Sims

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/455082#Comment_455082

I'm pretty sure I will just keep Windows on the HDD; I haven't convinced myself of any real benefit of moving Windows to the SSD.

Shayne, I would not advise this. Windows and its related components are by far the most active things going on in your computer. The benefits are faster start/restart times, and overall improved performance. It will also make all programs that are in the default programs folders run faster (assuming you have not already moved your programs folder to another drive).

Hi Joseph,

I think you're very likely right and I'm just reluctant to do the work of either a) re-installing Windows & programs or b) cloning the hdd to the sdd and figuring out how to move the appropriate directories back to the hdd (if that's even possible or feasible). I haven't done any research to know the best & easiest way to set it up. I was thinking of punting and just moving Logos and a few select programs to the SSD, going more for the easy than the smart approach. I think I'll do as you suggest and reconsider my approach. Does anyone know of any good articles, how-tos on making the change-over?

Just another bit on the topic of RAM: I ran across this discussion and thought it useful: http://superuser.com/questions/315347/16gb-ram-force-windows-7-to-use-as-much-ram-as-possible

Per the first response in that discussion: I have 12 GB of RAM in my system, at this moment 7.78 GB is actively in use, 4.2 GB is being used to cache and prefetch programs that Windows has determined I will likely use/reuse soon; RAM that is easily reclaimed as needed, but obviously the bigger the cache, the better the performance. That leaves me an amount of free RAM on my system that is fluctuating between 0 and 6 MB (Megabytes!). My system would definitely use more RAM if I had it, but at least it's not paging/thrashing. Makes me wish I'd opted for 16GB.

There's nothing wrong with 8 or 12 GB. You'll likely have good performance for the most part, but Windows will obviously use as much as you can throw at it in order to optimize performance.

Mark Barnes

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/455149#Comment_455149

Thanks for all the responses. I've made two discoveries/decisions. (1) If I build the thing myself, I'll save around £100. (2) That if I buy a motherboard with a Z77 chipset I can hook up a smallish SSD that will automatically cache the important files. I'm thinking of a 128Gb SSD, and using half of it as a cache for the system drive, and half of it as a logical partition to keep Logos on. The saving on doing the self-build should pay for both the higher-spec motherboard and the SSD drive.

Joseph Turner

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/455149#Comment_455149

I haven't done any research to know the best & easiest way to set it up. I was thinking of punting and just moving Logos and a few select programs to the SSD, going more for the easy than the smart approach. I think I'll do as you suggest and reconsider my approach. Does anyone know of any good articles, how-tos on making the change-over?

I always like to start with a clean install. It just makes things cleaner, and it gets rid of stuff that you don't need or haven't used. It would also be a good time to upgrade to Windows 8 if you are not already running it (assuming you like Windows 8). There should be lots of good tutorials, but Windows 8 was pretty easy. I did have to fresh install Win7, and then do the upgrade install of Win8, because I wanted to start fresh, but I did not want to buy the full version of Win8.

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/455191#Comment_455191

Noticed Dell Outlet UK => http://outlet.euro.dell.com/Online/InventorySearch.aspx?brandid=1&c=uk&cs=ukdfh1&l=en&s=dfh has some desktop computers:

Also noted Dell Outlet UK has twitter coupons.

Personally using a Dell laptop with SSD as a secondary device for Logos use plus a 512 MB RAM disk for temporary file usage. For searching, Logos can create a number of temporary files.

Keep Smiling [:)]

Luigi Sam

I also would recommend the 2nd choice.

To add to the reasons already mentioned in favor of the 2nd choice:

1. I would not get the first choice because the OCZ Agility 3 is not the current OCZ Agility Model. And it matters!!!! ( Ie this old model has a different controller and performance / firmware upgrade potential then compared to the newer OCZ drives ) That is From my memory of doing research on OCZ drives.

EDIT: also if you are on a strict budget, remember to factor in that you dont want to fill up an SSD drive more than about 70% otherwise the performance of the OCZ drive will switch to 'non performance mode'.

toughski

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/455269#Comment_455269

Mark, I want to encourage you to build your own system. You will be glad you did.

Also, Mark, when you've reposted, you switched computers around. What was "No1" became "No2",

so now when people reply and say "I would pick No2" it is ambiguous.

People, for Mark's benefit, include what specs you would chose, rather than No1 or No2

Geo Philips

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/455191#Comment_455191

Hi Mark,

That is a good idea. If the motherboard is having an MSATA slot, I am sure you know that your choices for drives are limited. Either way, SSD is the way to go for Windows (especially 7 and 8) and Logos. My machine is really fast for Logos and Windows bootup using an SSD.

I run LOGOS 4 smoothly under 3 seconds with ALL panels populated in English, Greek and Hebrew using

Sandy Bridge i7 Quad Core

16GB RAM

2 GB Video (Radeon) on a single 1080p 40" Quattron

Dual 128 GB SSD + 1.8 TB HDD

16 MB/s Internet

So far this configuration eats any Logos on breakfast... (so to speak) [:D]

Matthew C Jones

An i5 3570 with 2GB nVidia GeForce GT 640, and a 15000rpm 10,000rpm HDD.

Tom Geswein

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/455005#Comment_455005

8GB RAM isn't enough for a desktop. I would consider 12 GB a minimum for desktop, to be future proof. I've got a Windows 7 system with 12 GB. Most of the time it's at 55% to 70% RAM usage with just Logos, Browser (Chrome is a monster here, sometimes using 3-4GB), and one or two other apps running. Granted, I also have a number of background processes running (like AV, etc), but I keep mine pretty optimized. Open a few more big apps like photoshop and it can start climbing higher. If apps continue to grow in RAM usage as they have in the past then in a year or two I'll probably be closely approaching or exceeding 100% RAM usage.

My experience seems to be much different. My 8gb system seems to be more than enough... Just for giggles I loaded the system down (Windows 7 64 bit): Running Logos 5, Modern Warfare 3, Photoshop, four browser windows open, while running an antivirus scan and listening to music and I still have 2.8gb of available physical memory. I realize each users results will be different, but I have never had an issue with using up 8gb. Ram is much cheaper today than it was a few years ago, so if you can afford the extra memory, go for it - like Randy said, it will make it future-proof.

steve clark

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/455389#Comment_455389

Mark,

Before going with the i3, please check this article:

Core i3 vs i5 vs i7: A Summary of Intel's Processors

It is an older technology and is missing TurboBoost.

Mark Barnes

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/455396#Comment_455396

Thanks again for all the advice. Here's what I've settled on:

http://pcpartpicker.com/uk/p/zaUe

I'll use it with my existing HDD at the moment, and add in an SSD very soon. That will allow me to do some benchmarking to compare Logos on a standard HDD and on SSD. Hopefully, it should overclock a little, too.

Allen Browne

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/455468#Comment_455468

Here's what I've settled on

Good choice, Mark. That should do very nicely.

Joseph Turner

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/455569#Comment_455569

Exciting! What OS are you installing?

Mark Barnes

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/455573#Comment_455573

What OS are you installing?

I'm running Windows 8 Pro at the moment, but I'm seriously considering putting Windows 7 back on the new build. I've never gone back on an upgrade before (not even Vista), but at the moment I'm struggling to think of one good reason to stick with 8 (and several reasons not to). I've been running Win 8 since release, and I can honestly say that I've never clicked a live tile, and that I find nothing but frustration from the lack of start menu. I'm a keyboard warrior, and have been used to doing almost all app launching without reaching for the mouse, and only possible in Win8 if you install something like www.startisback.com

Joseph Turner

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/455584#Comment_455584

What OS are you installing?

I'm running Windows 8 Pro at the moment, but I'm seriously considering putting Windows 7 back on the new build. I've never gone back on an upgrade before (not even Vista), but at the moment I'm struggling to think of one good reason to stick with 8 (and several reasons not to). I've been running Win 8 since release, and I can honestly say that I've never clicked a live tile, and that I find nothing but frustration from the lack of start menu. I'm a keyboard warrior, and have been used to doing almost all app launching without reaching for the mouse, and only possible in Win8 if you install something like www.startisback.com

I agree with you on all counts, but I did personally decide to stick with it. It seems to be a little snappier, but I am still always going for the start menu!

Geo Philips

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/455584#Comment_455584

Thats interesting Mark. I have warmed to Windows 8, and I find I use the keyboard less to launch apps and search with it. I just hit the Windows key and type away. The only time I use the mouse outside of an app or game on the desktop is to shut down the computer. I have been too lazy to write a cmd shortcut for that!

Also, i find 8 much snappier than 7 on my SSD.

Mark Barnes

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/455679#Comment_455679

I just hit the Windows key and type away.

That's OK sometimes, but lot of the time I need control panel applets, and they're hidden away in the settings section. It's particularly annoying that amalgamate results from Programs/Settings/Files, or at least switch to settings is there are results there but not in programs. Even if you're using the mouse it forces you to click on two opposite sites of the screen to get what you want. And it returns dozens of results for 'device' which makes it hard to find what you want. I know it's a little thing, but it's a frustration I experience several times a day - sometimes several times an hour.

Geo Philips

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/455694#Comment_455694

Ah yes true. That is an annoyance. I can see how that would get irritating fast.

The good thing about both 7 and 8 is that they can recognize SSDs and act accordingly, so you will see a definite improvement in performance. For the longest time, the Mac did not have proper support for them until recently.

Allen Browne

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/455584#Comment_455584

I'm running Windows 8 Pro at the moment

You can always pay to go back to Windows 7:
http://www.gizmodo.com.au/2013/01/some-people-are-paying-125-to-downgrade-from-windows-8-to-windows-7/

[:)]

Mark Barnes

I've built this PC now, and it's fantastic. Very happy - although it actually doesn't fit into my old case, so I'm going to have to leave the side off! I ran a quick speed test in Logos which taxes most components (opening a very complex saved layout). My old system took 27.87s, this one takes 4.382s. Not bad, eh?

Donnie Hale

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/462581#Comment_462581

In case you're still on Win 8, or anyone else cares, 3 very useful links from my favorite tech blogger, Scott Hanselman:

http://www.hanselman.com/blog/TheMissingWindows8InstructionalVideo.aspx

http://www.hanselman.com/blog/PinningUsefulAndObscureStuffToTheWindows8StartMenu.aspx

http://www.hanselman.com/blog/Windows8ProductivityWhoMovedMyCheeseOhThereItIs.aspx

-Donnie

fgh

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/462581#Comment_462581

I ran a quick speed test in Logos which taxes most components (opening a very complex saved layout).

Pity we can't share layouts, or you could have tried it with Denise's 90 resource layout. I'm assuming even your "very complex" layout weren't quite that complex.[:D]