Upset with Logos going from 4 to 5

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Posts 7
Clayton Sanders | Forum Activity | Posted: Fri, Feb 1 2013 7:47 AM

I am a seminary student and a full time minister. Last year I purchased Logos 4 and it has greatly improved my ability to study the Bible and prepare sermons, lessons, and homework. Thank you for building an amazing product.

First, I want to state the majority sentiment that I hear from my fellow students. We are upset about the shift from Logos 4 to 5. The "upgrade" pricing is unfortunately upsetting to those of us who have only had Logos for a year or so. Had I known that Logos 5, after the upgrade consideration, would cost similar to my full Library to begin with, I would have found a way to upgrade to platinum before the change from Logos 4 to 5. By what I read, I was under the impression that Logos 4 would still be supported. I assumed falsely that this meant the Logos 4 packages would still be offered for a time, side by side with Logos 5. Unfortunately, most new students in our language courses are choosing to use other software and internet sources. This shift is due firstly to professors no longer requiring Logos due to the growing cost. The professors only did this as a response to the students cries that the software was so expensive. Not only did this negate the "mandatory" software class discount, but since it is being used by fewer students, even fewer are buying it. Once again, I am a fan of the Logos software and I applaud the efforts of the staff. I just wonder if other seminaries are experiencing the same fall out as ours. I would imagine seminaries are the bread and butter of Logos. But, as in all things I can very well be wrong.

Thank you for your work in opening God's word to so many people who would have trouble studying in the depth that you make available.

God Bless,

Joe Sanders

Posts 11433
DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 1 2013 8:04 AM

Joe ... you're looking at the usual (purposeful) inability that Logos has to communicate openly. (I call it honesty; they call it business.)

Logos5 software will be available FREE in the next few weeks; the upgrades and so forth they're trying to sell are resources and 'datasets'.

But I'm not surprised at the conclusion of your fellow students.  3 months after the fact.

"God will save his fallen angels and their broken wings He'll mend."

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NB.Mick | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 1 2013 9:06 AM

Clayton Sanders:
most new students in our language courses are choosing to use other software and internet sources. This shift is due firstly to professors no longer requiring Logos due to the growing cost. The professors only did this as a response to the students cries that the software was so expensive.

In an ideal world, professors would be more intelligent than responding to student cries without doeing some research first. Probably they would have found that nothing really changed, that there's no need for expensive upgrades if one doesn't  want to gro the library and that the prices for first-time acdemic buyers probably didn't change much (guessing here). Maybe they would've even found that through new databases, such as data for who is meant with personal pronouns in a clause etc, Logos now excells even more over other SW and gives impressive new research opportunities. 

Maybe some students who research better and counter the cries with facts should be in every class, as well.... 

Since we're not there yet, I think Logos would do well to reconsider

- hiding the Original Languages base package (rather give it a separate product page from an "academic" intro page)

- marketing to academic "multipliers" (rather give e.g. each Hebrew/Greek professor a free copy in exchange for running the class through half an hour Webex)

- marketing to seminarists as future long-term customers

but it's Dan and Bob who decide over this stuff.

 

Running Logos 9 latest (beta) version on Win 10

Posts 300
JC54 | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 1 2013 9:35 AM

Well I am also a seminary student and I recognize the problem. The obligated package was OL in 4 so that meant a cost of 210 dollar with the big discount. 

For Logos 5 the new OL costs 375 dollar. Of course this is a better and bigger package, but as a student you cannot always afford that much for a package even if it is a wonderful deal. One can not live from books alone

Posts 1917
Ken McGuire | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 1 2013 10:03 AM

In an academic setting, especially in introductory classes where they are teaching you to use the tools, it is expected that everyone has the same tools.

But tools are updated over time.  When I was being taught how to use the Nestle-Aland, it was obvious that the 27th edition was coming real soon.  And so, in spite of "requirements" I held off on getting NA26 and made due with UBS3 which I already had, borrowing copies of NA26 when I needed to.  I then got NA27 when it came out.  And then for the rest of my classes, there were slight variants in those of us who had NA27 and those with NA26 - and those editions were VERY close - same main text, same pagination, etc., but a slightly different apparatus.

Probably a better example is undergraduate.  A new edition of the Calculus textbook came out.  So what if you had the old one for Calc 1 when you took it.  You had to get the new one for Calc 2, and your old book is almost worthless on the used book market now.

I would hardly call Logos the worst offender in this...

The Gospel is not ... a "new law," on the contrary, ... a "new life." - William Julius Mann

L8 Anglican, Lutheran and Orthodox Silver, Reformed Starter, Academic Essentials

L7 Lutheran Gold, Anglican Bronze

Posts 482
elnwood | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 1 2013 10:12 AM

Just to add support to what Joe is saying, if I had to choose between the Logos 4 and the Logos 5 content, I would have gone with the Logos 4 content. I am really happy that I got the Logos 4 content, and really, REALLY happy that I got it before they axed the Baker commentaries in Logos 4.

There was a Logos blog post about what you missed in Logos 4 packages.

http://blog.logos.com/2013/01/why-you-shouldnt-wait-until-logos-6-to-upgrade/

The point of the blog post was that you should get Logos 5 now before Logos 6 comes out, but the real effect it had was making people like Joe disappointed that he lost the opportunity to get the Logos 4 content.

The other packages got revamped too, and if I had known the Catholic packages were going to be revamped, I may have considered getting one of those before the repackaging.

Posts 7
Clayton Sanders | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 1 2013 10:42 AM

This was a decision made over multiple years by our professors after listening to what students said semester after semester.

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Mark Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 1 2013 10:53 AM

Clayton Sanders:
This was a decision made over multiple years by our professors after listening to what students said semester after semester.

Wow is all I can say.  I understand the complaints about every expense bit with students in general, but are these future ministers, church staff members, and denominational leaders only going to do research with free Internet tools for the rest of their ministries? I think of Logos as an investment for all the rest of one's ministry, not just a requirement for one course.

You may have missed it, but the upgrade to the free Logos 5 engine is coming soon, and for less than $150 you can get the Minimal Upgrade that gives you the tools to utilize all the new features of L5 (don't know what the academic pricing might be). Your resources and tools will continue to work with just the free engine when it comes out.

The L4 base packages were better than those in L5. Nothing stays the same, however. Every new release of Logos has brought changes in the package offerings. However the resources I had back in Logos 2.0 days still work today. I've lost nothing.

 

Pastor, North Park Baptist Church

Bridgeport, CT USA

Posts 2004
Donnie Hale | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 1 2013 11:55 AM

It seems to me that some of the folks in this thread have not read the 200+ messages in other threads which are consistent in their affirmation:

*****You never lose any existing resources when you upgrade*****

I'm a seminary student, too, though I'm an old man and also work full time. I buy every possible course resource in Logos, but they're not all available in that format. I upgraded immediately to L5 because I wanted a couple of the new features (not new resources, necessarily).

If you want new features which require the new data sets, buy the Minimal Crossgrade. If you don't need any of those new features but want the Logos 5 engine, download it for free when it becomes available. If you like having a library called "Gold," buy the "Gold" upgrade. You don't lose any of your current (presumably L4 Gold) resources.

(or get the Core Data Sets - http://community.logos.com/forums/t/65264.aspx )

Donnie

 

Posts 2964
tom | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Feb 2 2013 4:35 AM

Mark Smith:
free Internet tools

Mark, There are some GREAT free resources on the net.  http://www.workingpreacher.org  (ELCA), http://www.gbod.org (UMC), http://www.ministrymatters.com (UMC), http://www.textweek.com/ (various), http://www.crossings.org (Lutheran), http://www.ucc.org/worship/samuel/ (UCC), and http://www.odysseynetworks.org (multi-faith) are just some of the websites that I visit weekly.

Posts 456
Roger Feenstra | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Feb 2 2013 5:52 AM

tom:

Mark Smith:
free Internet tools

Mark, There are some GREAT free resources on the net. 

Hi Tom.  With respect, the websites you listed are not study websites and really have no comparison to L5.  If seminary students are solely using websites like those for studying God's Word I pity their congregations.

Elder/Pastor, Hope Now Bible Church, Fresno CA

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Milford Charles Murray | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Feb 2 2013 6:00 AM

tom:
Mark, There are some GREAT free resources on the net.
Peace, Tom!               What a great list!       Thank you!            *smile*

Philippians 4:  4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........

Posts 3
Dean Masters | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Feb 2 2013 11:33 AM

I jus wish they had made Logos 4 completely accesible for those of us who use screen reader before building version 5 and not even thinking of us screen reader users. It looks like accessibility would be easier to build in from the beginning than trying to add it in later. I still use Libronix because I can use the mouse cursor and the mouse buttons to do the research which I can't do in Logos 4. About all we can do in Logos 4 is read the books. Forget about doing research or using any of the other things they have added that sighted people can use.  I have upgraded other bible programsbut found them less accessible than the earlier versions. so there is no way I am going to shell out so much money even if I do get more books. What good are books if you can't use them to the fullest that Logos is supposed to make them available?

Posts 671
Michael Lyman | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Feb 2 2013 11:44 AM

Donnie Hale:

It seems to me that some of the folks in this thread have not read the 200+ messages in other threads which are consistent in their affirmation:

*****You never lose any existing resources when you upgrade*****

I'm a seminary student, too, though I'm an old man and also work full time. I buy every possible course resource in Logos, but they're not all available in that format. I upgraded immediately to L5 because I wanted a couple of the new features (not new resources, necessarily).

If you want new features which require the new data sets, buy the Minimal Crossgrade. If you don't need any of those new features but want the Logos 5 engine, download it for free when it becomes available. If you like having a library called "Gold," buy the "Gold" upgrade. You don't lose any of your current (presumably L4 Gold) resources.

(or get the Core Data Sets - http://community.logos.com/forums/t/65264.aspx )

Donnie

 

Excellent response!

 

Posts 11433
DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Feb 2 2013 11:57 AM

I think the OP and I guess the students are SO NAIVE.   People routinely, when they go shopping on Amazon, first checkout all the Amazon forums, thousands of user entries that discuss everything on the planet earth and above, traipse around the Amazon blog for the last several months, and then wait months and sometimes even years for those really good Amazon buys.

I know I do. Why, everyone does and we all know this.

In fact, I really appreciate when the Amazon prices are higher than other obvious sources. It just seems so logical.

And a professor that listens to his students. Oh good grief. What next? Students that want low prices probably.

"God will save his fallen angels and their broken wings He'll mend."

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