A question for Luigi Sam
Luigi I was wondering what do you use Logos for?
Academic study
Sermon preperation
Exegetical work
General reading
This will help me understand your issue with differing doctrinal viewpoints and identifying them
Comments
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Kelvin Niblett said:
Luigi I was wondering what do you use Logos for?
Academic study
Sermon preperation
Exegetical work
General reading
This will help me understand your issue with differing doctrinal viewpoints and identifying them
Ditto – bumppity - bump...
I have been wondering the same myself.
It does seem to appear that the link to this thread from there has turned to a general theological issue..?
help us please..
DISCLAIMER: What you do on YOUR computer is your doing.
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Looks like Luigi has gone AWOL.
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I could not make any sense of his arguments.
I am a Baptist Pastor and my second favorite missiology text book is "The Biblical Foundations for mission" Donald Senior. C.P & Carroll Stuhlmueller C.P.
These are two Catholic Priests and I enjoyed learning from their wisdom.I wonder what Luigi used Logos for?
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Back when I was in school it was pointed out that it is too easy to just quote words from theological opponents and shout back, "we condemn" a straw man that actually has little to nothing in common with what they were trying to say. But the harder way is much more Christian. When you have a disagreement, talk to each other until you can describe their position in a way that your opponent would be able to say, "Yes, that is what I am saying." You may still have to say, "No" to this, since heresy DOES exist, but usually heretics have a point too. As much as Irenaeus condemned the Gnostics, much of the richness of his view of redemption via recapitulation is based on dealing with them...
As easy as it is to say that this is what we should do, it is very hard to do this in practice... And so if this thread is to actually understand were Luigi is coming from, it is a needed step in the right direction.
The Gospel is not ... a "new law," on the contrary, ... a "new life." - William Julius Mann
L8 Anglican, Lutheran and Orthodox Silver, Reformed Starter, Academic Essentials
L7 Lutheran Gold, Anglican Bronze
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I've decided it's best not to keep talking about a forum member thinking we're doing it behind his back. He might just be busy or away for a couple of days and not posting, but when he gets back he'll see this thread.
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As I've mentioned in earlier 'Luigi' threads (interesting so many, and he seems to know which one has what), Luigi is the norm, whether one agrees with him or not. If one simply stuck to the NT, the same 'intolerent' view toward 'wrong view' is there for the asking, whether Jesus, Paul or the writer of the Johnines. Even Jude was pretty up-front.
More 'recentlly' if one is protestant, just head up to New England for each colony's treatment of the 'wrong view'. Or if one is Catholic, come on out west and see how Franciscan priests' first problem was not survivability in native-american villages; it was the opposing priests from Spain.
Today's emphasis on tolerance is a very recent feature of Christianity. So to portray Luigi as 'hard to understand' and 'how does he use Logos' is curious.
Now you're probably trying to decide which part of my head to take off first (see the stories on Richard III), but 'tolerance' is a very fragile thing. That's why (1) I'm impressed as Bob bobs and weaves forward and (2) I not particularly disgruntled with Luigi ... my whole family is the same way. And this forum isn't far behind ... read the comments on mormonism knowing full well Ben participates.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Dear DMB: I really don't think it is the norm anymore in some ways, but even if it is, it is not "helpful".
One of the problems we all face is making decisions without all the information.
In math ( for instance ) it is not enough to know the sum of an equation, thats not "doing" math.
One must be able to do and show the formula that allows for that solution.
Science is ( for the most part ) the same way.
With Theology, we often just have our highly subjective opinions without taking into account all the information needed to come to a proper solution.
Today, I think, we are finally "starting" to move past the highly subjective individualistic interpretive method into something far more grand , which is the ability to study , with ease, a vast amount of Biblical materials and history and perhaps think more communally about these things.
These studies are now available to not only the higher academic disciplines, but to any and all lay persons. The internent has made much interaction and information available and Biblical/Theological Software is still in it's infancy. Social networking also has some positive in that we are exposed to lots of different thinkings. My Facebook page has Christians from a great many disciplines postings, Orthodox, Roman, Anglican, Lutheran, Pentecostal, Non-Denom. Evangelical, Protestant etc. etc. Lots of sharing, lots of questions, etc.
I honestly think we all have a responsibility to try and understand where others are coming from, understand the basis from which we believe that which we believe. We all need to be able to explain what we believe and, be open to learning some aspect we have not known before, which may well mean we have to modify our own positions -rightly.
As one who has traveled theologically from/through Protestant/Evangelicalism/non-denom etc. to ancient ( yet still relevant-smile) catholicity , my library and software's show this and, all of it has value to me, all of it is important and all of it has added value to my life.
Yes, we still have arguments to argue, we still have things to strain under, we still have mountains to climb, we still have wounds to be healed, but all things are possible.
I'm not angry "at" Luigi. Yet I do, honestly, and this is as honest as I can be, I get very frustrated with the teachers/academics/situations that close off "thinking", as a control function to further an agenda.
I don't like that, it produces bad situations, it hurts the human condition and does not properly further the Gospel.
We too often are trained to regurgitate static information rather than encouraged to "think" and thus , learn.
As an Old Monk once told me as I basked in wonder after one of my "epiphanies" of learning : My Son: In the terms of your world " You ain't seen nothin yet!
Christianity has a 2000+ year history, it is a large tapestry, there is much to see and contemplate. It takes time to see what is there to be seen,in fact, it cannot be seen in total in an entire lifetime. We really need to be careful in condemning what we have yet to study and understand, we need to ask more questions and be careful in thinking we have all the answers.
So Proud of Logos bringing us such great treasures to read and study, and not only these great treasures , but the tools to be able to embrace them! We now have at our fingertips, books, texts, letters that just a few short years ago, only the very highest academics had access too and, would be able to digest because they were fluent in ancient languages. We now have these available for just about anyone, with interlinears , cross references, translations, commentaries etc. etc.
This is an Exciting Time and companies like Logos are helping this to be an exciting age to live in, for study.
We have the ability to have a pretty good snapshot of the whole of the Christian experience over time and it's people, the interaction of God with His Creation. The good and bad, the success and failures. We have this available to us in greater degree than anyone since the first hundred years of Christianity.
We really should be trying to learn, to study, to think, to embrace, not ignoring the past, not ignoring others thinkings, we should be striving to learn.
In Science, Medicine. Mathematics etc, the past is always an important part of todays work , the success and failures, the good and the bad, the mistakes and the great discoveries. So it should also be with us. I am hopeful that is becoming so.
Thats what I want Luigi to see and respect, and, I am thankful that Logos helps us all to be exposed to a greater and greater depth and width of Christian History, Doctrine and Discipline.
In His Service;
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Likewise I am not meaning to talk behind L.S. back, I do understand how some people can have a bad opinion of nearly every group. But his whole argument to me has felt like someone complaining to a dairy they sell chocolate milk and are therefore biased to the cocoa and sugar industries, and demanding that their regular milk be relabelled to clearly say "Plain Unflavoured White Milk". I am sad that LS has felt offended by Logos offering their fine product in a different "flavour" while still offering their regular offerings. And I am very sorry if I offend any Catholics with this analogy since they would likely prefer to see themselves as the white milk. as I said in one of the other links, Love is the only important thing in the end, the Bible is a huge commentary trying to explain how to Love God and neighbour. And when it comes down to it really the only one happy with heated theological discussions leading to enmity is Satan.
-dan
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Fr. Charles R. Matheny said:
I honestly think we all have a responsibility to try and understand where others are coming from, understand the basis from which we believe that which we believe.
Again a well considered post.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Dan Francis said:
And I am very sorry if I offend any Catholics with this analogy since they would likely prefer to see themselves as the white milk.
No need for concern - we're probably debating what type of chocolate works best.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Maybe you should rephrase your analogy to strawberry and chocolate milk.
That way their is no plain milk
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Kelvin Niblett said:
Maybe you should rephrase your analogy to strawberry and chocolate milk.
That way their is no plain milk
But the debate has ALWAYS been that "I" have everything correct, and people who disagree with me have added special flavors to their good healthy milk, turning it something different. Large sections of Irenaeus and Tertullian are basically saying that (admittedly they say more than that too)
SDG
Ken McGuire
The Gospel is not ... a "new law," on the contrary, ... a "new life." - William Julius Mann
L8 Anglican, Lutheran and Orthodox Silver, Reformed Starter, Academic Essentials
L7 Lutheran Gold, Anglican Bronze
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just so you guys know, i've seen this and am reading through it.
Also just so you guys know, I really am just a regular guy, and yesterday I did actually go awol in the sense of not feeling like checking the forum due to the folly of sin that occurred yesterday. I am just writing this because sometimes when I (or any of us for that matter) might write a few posts where God might be aiding the inspiration, it doesn't mean that I want to act like I am something more than I actually am. Also I'd prefer to write of my own humanity first just in case someone points it out before me, and just in case they rejoice that somehow there is victory in thier cause just because someone sinned - insinuating that due to a persons sin, that makes thier points invalid.
Anyway I will get back to you soon.
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Luigi Sam said:
just so you guys know, i've seen this and am reading through it.
Thanks Luigi, I don't need to know about your theological viewpoints, but simpily what you use Logos for?
Also if you feel like telling us what ministry role are you engaged in?Small group leader
Pastor
Scholar
This helps me understand where your argument comes from and to what degree one should label differing viewpoints.
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The main purpose that I use bible study software tools for are:
To help research important questions: ( that either I need, or to help others get an inpartial answer - even if I can't actually come to a conclusion. )
(these studies may take hours, a day or weeks, or are studies which can only be done incrementally as I grow)
(which involve:- comparisions of what conflicting writers think,
- what writers from conflicting denominations think,
- and what the pure context says and coming to a conclusion where ever possible,
- or leaving it undecided where no writer's conslusions are acceptable, and where the context, and other methods of getting insights just from the bible exclusively proove to be too much at that point in time to come to a conclusion.
So mainly for study purposes, not for general reading.
When an important topic arises the degree of effort I would go to get the right answer is:I would exhaust all my resources, and techniques.
So my interest in Bible Study Software tools and resources is honestly to get the best use out of them by:
making them easier to process,
making them as orderly as possible so that the steps I take are not unduely time intensive (reduce, look in orderly increments, look at from differnt standpoints, etc)
what ever technique helps get the answer without wading through near infinite inforamtion, and which helps to do it in the most orderly and systematic way.
This is what information technology should do well, in working with me to get an answer.
This is not exhaustive of explaining the level of effort or tools/technique that I would go to to get the right answer (the impartial answer), and
the level of effort I would go to in order to help someone else get the right answer (the impartial answer).
But due to my commitment to get the right answer without predudice, If things cant be put into various types of order, then it takes alot longer, and can make things so much harder.
To be honest, I pritty much get burnt out for even some of the medium - medium-hard questions, that I have got good answers (the impartial answer) for, and which I have tried to resate in a way that would be easier for others to understand. Why? Likely because I go overkill even though I dont have to sometimes.
Also, even though I get burnt out, some times i actually get feel sick for long periods.
Therefore, whereever bible study technology can:- reduce my load to make me feel like I have come to the completed state where the impartial answer can be re-explained by me,
- or help others improve they way they can get / discern information impartially, then I try to make a point of it.
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Kelvin Niblett said:
Maybe you should rephrase your analogy to strawberry and chocolate milk.
That way their is no plain milk
Perhaps but in the end I am fairly sure LS would see his milk as pure… Although personally I agree, evangelical, lutheran, catholic, baptist, pentecostal, methodist…. every theology has a flavour, indeed even in the Bible--Pauline vs. Johnine vs. Hebrews- all have theology "with different flavours". The only ones who have a chance at a pure neutral flavourless theology would be someone without looking in from the outside with no preconceived beliefs, with no preconceived academics and I don't think anyone would find that very edifying. Likely to be unrecognizable as the nourishing milk we seek, to return to the analogy.
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Luigi Sam said:
Also, even though I get burnt out, some times i actually get feel sick for long periods.
Therefore, whereever bible study technology can:- reduce my load to make me feel like I have come to the completed state where the impartial answer can be re-explained by me,
- or help others improve they way they can get / discern information impartially, then I try to make a point of it.
Ah and there is the problem, you will not find any impartially answers written by anyone of faith, every work, every author brings their own bias and baggage to the text. Indeed even a prophet of God like Jonah can speak God's words powerfully enough to see massive repentance and miss the point. Catholic works are not more or less impartial unless you take into account 2000 years of men and women praying and being lead by the Spirit. No person ever spoke for God but the incarnate one Jesus Christ. God's Spirit may and dose come powerfully on individuals but in the end flavours of their style bleed through, I commend you for your ardent study and comparing things and pointing out bias. But please be careful… you are absolutely right when you point at anyone and say SINNER, SINNER, but God's grace has sanctified more than you can image and many are SAINTS too.
-dan
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Good Post Luigi: I understand.
Might I just share with you something that really helped me a lot with my studies and, with life in general, it turns out.
I was struggling with a study and my mentor asked me about it, you know, questions like:
What is the purpose of this study, what is your goal? ( My answer was similar to what you described btw)
Why are you doing it? ( My answer was similar to yours )
How are you going about it?
What tools are you using ?
etc. etc.
Then he gently guided me into a totally different path, goes something like this:
First :Pray for God's Graces. Never look at commentaries until after you are fairly sure of your conclusions, then look at them just so see how others have approached the text, they may have questions you have not thought of. When doing Biblical studies, The Bible has a lot of texts/letters, so use all of them.
Second: Pray for God's Graces. Never think to break down a "passage/chapter" of Scripture without having first read the entire book it resides in, at least 25 times and, straight through as much as possible. Now you are "familiar" with the letter, it's flow, the authors form and way of doing emphasis etc. , you should be picking up on Key Words and Key Phrases.
Third: Pray for God's Graces. Now you should be ready to start the study of Words, how they are used in this letter and, how they are used throughout Holy Writ. Study the Greek or Hebrew, it's Etymology throughout scripture . If Greek, look to see if the word has a hebrew background ( important )
Forth: Pray for God's Graces:(and now the life changing part and why I posted the stuff you already know-smile)
By now, hopefully you will have forgotten the preconceived answers you came to the Scripture's trying to prove you were correct about and, trying to find commentators that agreed with you. Now, hopefully, we are ready to be "taught something" by God the Holy Spirit, now we are ready to see, to hear, to learn, to have actual questions, informed questions, intelligent questions.
So,I was given this:
My Spiritual Son: Stop striving to find the answers, strive to find the Questions.
Seek not answers, seek to find the great questions, then the answers will become readily apparent.
God cares much more about good and honest questions than He does about our opinions. In Fact, God loves for us to ask good questions!
End of loose quote.
Here's the deal ( Please everyone, I am not trying to start a Theological/Doctrinal discussion, so bear with me please)
There are many questions to be asked of the things we study. Too often, we believe we have come to some conclusion, and thats fine, as long as we don't park our mental car there, which we too often do.
So, we come to some conclusion. Now, we start to study deeper: we need to try and find every question we can, that pertains to that subject, the sub-subject and so forth.
Asking God about them as we go.
If our conclusion will not stand up under every question we can find related to that subject and, how it relates to other subjects, then we have not found a proper conclusion.
However, we have now found the excitement and joy of new studies, new avenues and new possibilities. We have now given ourselves the "opportunity" to be guided by the Holy Spirit into answers that are absolute, for they are the mind of God-His Truth, not ours.
We open ourselves up to the "opportunity" for something called "Divine Reading" ( Lectio- Divina ).
Now we are a student coming before the maker of all things, sitting at His Feet, being taught by Him who holds all things. This, is the student of God.
Answers are easy, everybody has one/some/many.
The student, is one who has questions for his Lord and Master.
The good student is the one with thoughtful questions.
Luigi : I can honestly tell you that I have sat down to study and have had most of a night go by, having no sense of the passage of time, until the session was ended. I have looked at books on my desk and table, knowing I got them down, but not remembering doing it. I have been so "flooded" that my heart raced like it was going to explode and my mind going so fast, I have actually asked God to stop. I am fearful for my physical body I have cried, feeling ashamed as the words came from my mouth, yet able to instantly feel peace, the lesson being learned that there is a reality far deeper than I had known.
Other times, similar things, yet in those times seeing the darkness within myself is far darker than I had ever thought, and again, letting God know I need to "digest a bit", before I could continue, again, Joy and Peace were there for comfort, but still, It is often hard to be in the presence of God intimately . The student, finds these things, these places, these divine encounters. Not by trying to "proof text " the conclusion we came to study with, but by asking God what He is saying, what He means, why He did this, said that, what was going on.
I call it : "Getting to where you can hear the sandals , crunching in the sand".
There is no "Burn out" in being a student of God, of being taught by the Holy Spirit.
We can be overwhelmed, find ourselves over excited ( until we learn to breath and not get over stimulated by our adrenaline ), we can find ourselves quite fearful, scared in getting glimpses of ourselves as God see's us. Yet we will not find ourselves "burned out"-ever.
We should not study Scripture to be smart, well informed, to be teachers or Pastors, none of that.
We should instead open the Scriptures : Seeking to be in the presence of God.
Hope this is of some use to you.
Blessings of Grace and Peace,
( Yep.too long winded again too. )
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Excellent post Charles, filled with love of people and devotion to God. This post I see as a blessing. We should all try to understand the scriptures on their own terms, (also a good idea in other areas of life too,) so that we can get to what is really meant when we do our reading.
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Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have
experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."N.B. both prayer and worship are rooted in Scripture
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Dan Francis said:
I am fairly sure LS would see his milk as pure…
If Peter is fallible ( Galatians 2:7-3:11) , then I am too. Otherwise I am Infallible.
And if one of you shall say: it was out of fear and not by his will that he did he did this, then I ask:
how much does your denomination compel you out of fear to stay under its wing, rather than you living, and teaching according to the truth of the gospel? Galatians 2:140 -
Luigi, I found this video very usefull in finding my own voice and wading through the noise of different opinions and theologies.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hVVNYIPK_Q
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Luigi Sam said:
it was out of fear and not by his will that he did he did this
Luigi, there is always a choice even in times of fear. Some give into their fear, and some do not but either way it is a decision. If, fallibility were an issue there would be no need for art of textual criticism. So, yes humans (all of us) are fallible and much of what we touch as well.
חַפְּשׂוּ בַּתּוֹרָה הֵיטֵב וְאַל תִּסְתַּמְּכוּ עַל דְּבָרַי
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Dan Francis said:
Ah and there is the problem, you will not find any impartially answers written by anyone of faith, every work, every author brings their own bias and baggage to the text.
Hi Dan,
This impartiality subject was on my mind today, I hope that this might be of value in considering impartialality in the way that I meant it:
---------------------------------------------------------------
Impartiality
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Is
it attainable? -
How
can I be Impartial? -
When
peoples point of views are involved: How can I be impartial?
Consider
the Judges in the Old Testament:-
They were commanded to not favor the rich over the poor.Consider
the techniques employed in a valid court case:-
submit the physical evidence, as untainted as possible.-
examine everyones story to read between the linesConsider
the techniques a Police Officer might employ to decide who should be
charged:-
take everyone aside and question them separately to test the
consistency of the story-
examine the stories, and where necessary re-question everyone to
clarify, and debunk false, and not impartial stories ( told to blame
one person more than the other because they are closer friends to one
person )Therefore: Being
impartial when peoples points of view are used It is not likely to be
infallible, but employing some impartial techniques will help someone to
be right more often than not.So
impartiality when using commentaries during bible study involves you
personally being the judge. Just like it is by your own confession,
and judgment to believe the Gospel, it is your responsibility when
studying to be impartial when using commentaries etc.Impartiality
is about getting to the truth, without being corrupted due to fear,
duress, bribes, status, popularity, or just wanting to stay uninformed on the matter when
God put it on your heart to find out more.It
is true that you will get peoples points of views at times. They
might not be impartial for a few reasons: (1) they didn't want to
address the subject you have in mind (2) they might be basing their
comments on personal experience, or want to 'preach a sermon' rather
than 'exposit a passage in context'. (3) they might have tried their
best but came to a different conclusion.However,
there are impartial techniques we can use to study the bible:-
Understand
the source book of the bible as much as possible - by reading a book
of the bible fully, -
if
something doesn't make sense then try to join it to something else
in that book (start with the nearest sentence, paragraph, and work
your way out to both ends of that book of the bible). Does it make
sense now? -
read
the book of the bible one paragraph at a time from end to start (
rather than start to end ) You will find yourself asking different
questions this way. -
2.
Use algorithms to get contextual reports. ( no human opinion
required ) -
[deleted as I think I was kind of 'advertising' myself] but any software which can do this in relation to the Bible. ( ie there are generally accepted impartial ways to measure computer performance called benchmarking software for example - but I am not saying that some any or all benchmark algorithms are fair, or that benchmarking tests are comparable to the bible algorithms I mean.)
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