Any feedback on new bibliography rendering in Logos 5.1 Beta?

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Tom Philpot (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Posted: Mon, Mar 4 2013 9:02 AM

We implemented a new citation rendering engine in Logos 5.1 Beta that provides more correct rendering in most cases than the previous engine in Logos 5.0 and Logos 4. It also includes updated versions of several citation styles. We've still got some tweaks to make to it, but we wanted to see if there was any feedback from our beta users about the new engine.

Have you tried it? Is there anything we can improve? Do you have any questions about it?

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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 4 2013 12:13 PM

Tom Philpot (Logos):
Have you tried it? Is there anything we can improve? Do you have any questions about it?

Hey Tom. 

I dont use citations often, but I thought I would take a quick look at it for you. It appears that some words are lowercase, which should be upper. Is that a resource issue, or an engine issue?

Stott, John R. W. Guard the truth: the message of 1 Timothy & Titus. The Bible Speaks Today. Downers Grove, IL: InterVarsity Press, 1996.

Carson, D. A., R. T. France, J. A. Motyer, and G. J. Wenham, eds. New Bible commentary: 21st century edition. 4th ed. Leicester, England: Inter-Varsity Press, 1994.

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Tom Philpot (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 4 2013 4:04 PM

Which citation style are you using?

APA 6th edition, which is the current default if nothing is selected, states in the section 4.15 of the Publication Manual of the American Psychological Association that "In titles of books and articles in reference lists, capitalize on the first word, the first word after a colon or em dash, and proper nouns."

We're currently letting the citation engine (CiteProc-JS) do whatever the macros that have been defined for each style do. It would appear that in the first example above, that the "the" after the colon should be capitalized in APA style.

MLA 7th edition section 3.6.1 covers how capitalization should be handled and it's much more like you'd expect in your example. 

Turabian is based off of the Chicago Manual of Style, as is SBL. In Chicago Manual of Style 16th edition, 8.157 states "Captialize the first and last words in titles and subtitles … and capitalize all other major words …", with several exceptions.

So, in any case, I'll go double check we are using the capitalization style appropriate for the citation style.

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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 4 2013 4:09 PM

Tom Philpot (Logos):
Which citation style are you using?

I normally use Turabian.

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Tom Philpot (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Mar 6 2013 12:23 PM

Thanks alabama. I've created a case to review the capitalization behavior of all the styles we ship. Many of the rendering macros in 5.1 Beta 1 assume the input titles are already correctly formatted, rather than applying the capitalization style called for by the style guide.

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Jon | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Mar 6 2013 11:16 PM

I haven't really used citations in Logos as my college requires a custom style — that could change if you give us the ability to import our own CSL...

Just for the sake of testing it out, I downloaded the students guide from the SBL website (http://www.sbl-site.org/assets/pdfs/SBLHSrevised2_09.pdf) to compare the example citations in the guide to what Logos produced in instances where I had that book; here's some comparisons:

Guide: Commentary title should be italicised, series should not:

Westermann, Claus. Genesis 12–36. Translated by John J. Scullion. Continental Commentaries. Minneapolis: Fortress, 1995. 

Logos: 

Westermann, Claus. A Continental Commentary: Genesis 12–36. Minneapolis, MN: Fortress Press, 1995.

Guide: Numbered series like Word, Anchor

Shouldn't include "Volume, Vol." e.g. Word Biblical Commentary 12 

Logos: 

Dillard, Raymond B. 2 Chronicles. Vol. 15. Word Biblical Commentary. Dallas: Word, Incorporated, 1998.

Guide — Bible dictionaries and encyclopaedias, citing an article:

Walters, Stanley D. “Jacob Narrative.” Pages 359–609 in vol. 3 of The Anchor Bible Dictionary. Edited by David Noel Freedman. 6 vols. New York: Doubleday, 1992. 

Logos: 

Walters, Stanley D. “Jacob Narrative.” Edited by David Noel Freedman. The Anchor Yale Bible Dictionary. New York: Doubleday, 1992.

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Pastor Luke | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Mar 7 2013 5:49 AM

If I remember correctly the old citations served as links back to the corresponding resource, is that correct? The current citations don't, and I sure wish they did.

I also have a suggestion. I  wish that there was a super condensed citation that contained only the resource abbreviation and the page number. I would like this because if I copy quotations into my notes I would like to know where they came from. If they were linked I could return to that resource quickly to regain context. I'm not intending to write a paper or create footnotes or a bibliography but I would like a link to the reference (e.g. ESV, 123). 

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Fr Devin Roza | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Mar 7 2013 6:07 AM

A while ago Bob mentioned that you were planning on allowing CSL styles (maybe best known as  Zotero styles) to be imported into Logos and used: http://community.logos.com/forums/p/46462/345316.aspx#345316. Is this still on the radar?

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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Mar 7 2013 7:30 AM

Luke:

I also have a suggestion. I  wish that there was a super condensed citation that contained only the resource abbreviation and the page number. I would like this because if I copy quotations into my notes I would like to know where they came from. If they were linked I could return to that resource quickly to regain context. I'm not intending to write a paper or create footnotes or a bibliography but I would like a link to the reference (e.g. ESV, 123). 

Have you tried adding logosres to your notes?

http://wiki.logos.com/Hyperlinks 

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Tom Philpot (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Mar 7 2013 8:33 AM

Thanks Jon.

I'll go back and review our book metadata, the CSL SBL macro and the CiteProc-JS code and see if we can render these correctly.

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Tom Philpot (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Mar 7 2013 8:38 AM

Luke:
If I remember correctly the old citations served as links back to the corresponding resource, is that correct? The current citations don't, and I sure wish they did.

You can actually double-click the citations to open the resource to which they refer. If the citation has an article reference within the resource, double-clicking should take you straight to the article.

Luke:
I also have a suggestion. I  wish that there was a super condensed citation that contained only the resource abbreviation and the page number. I would like this because if I copy quotations into my notes I would like to know where they came from. If they were linked I could return to that resource quickly to regain context. I'm not intending to write a paper or create footnotes or a bibliography but I would like a link to the reference (e.g. ESV, 123). 

Logos Res URLs are not quite this condensed, but they would work (as alabama24 suggested) You can copy the URL for any position in a resource off the panel menu. Click the cover image icon and click the URL button next to "Copy Location As" in the menu then paste into your app.

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Tom Philpot (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Mar 7 2013 8:59 AM

Fr Devin Roza:

A while ago Bob mentioned that you were planning on allowing CSL styles (maybe best known as  Zotero styles) to be imported into Logos and used: http://community.logos.com/forums/p/46462/345316.aspx#345316. Is this still on the radar?

I don't think Bob meant to imply that we would support importing custom styles. Technically we could support any available CSL style, but I don't know how much value it would be to our users to ship all 2500+ CSL styles (https://github.com/citation-style-language/styles). I doubt if any of our users would need support for "Agronomy for Sustainable Development" or "Journal of Fish Diseases". We can (and probably will) add those styles for which there is a significant amount of demand from our user base. 

Is there a particular CSL style that you would like to see added?

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Fr Devin Roza | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Mar 7 2013 9:08 AM

Tom Philpot (Logos):

I don't think Bob meant to imply that we would support importing custom styles. Technically we could support any available CSL style, but I don't know how much value it would be to our users to ship all 2500+ CSL styles (https://github.com/citation-style-language/styles). I doubt if any of our users would need support for "Agronomy for Sustainable Development" or "Journal of Fish Diseases". We can (and probably will) add those styles for which there is a significant amount of demand from our user base. 

Is there a particular CSL style that you would like to see added?

I am interested in having https://github.com/citation-style-language/styles/blob/master/pontifical-biblical-institute.csl and https://github.com/citation-style-language/styles/blob/master/pontifical-athenaeum-regina-apostolorum.csl added.

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Tom Philpot (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Mar 7 2013 10:22 AM

Great! Thanks for the suggestion.

BTW, the author's name looks suspiciously similar to yours :)

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Fr Devin Roza | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Mar 7 2013 10:28 AM

Smile

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Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Mar 8 2013 1:03 PM

Here is a user report of a problem with citations. I don't have the beta so I can't try his scenario out and see if it's been fixed in 5.1. But someone should try it and see. I remember this one being a common annoyance (repetition of publisher data for some journals):

http://community.logos.com/forums/t/67473.aspx

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fgh | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Apr 23 2013 6:26 AM

Tom Philpot (Logos):
Is there anything we can improve?

Here's a thread you may want to read: http://community.logos.com/forums/p/69465/482871.aspx#482871. It's got some good ideas.

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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Apr 23 2013 7:21 AM

fgh:

Tom Philpot (Logos):
Is there anything we can improve?

Here's a thread you may want to read: http://community.logos.com/forums/p/69465/482871.aspx#482871. It's got some good ideas.

fgh - thanks for catching this. Yes In a nutshell, there is a desire to have the ability to add logosres to citations. I know that Bob has opined at various times about the need for academia to get over the necessity of using page numbers in citations. I agree with him… but Bob's in more of a position to do something about it than I am. Wink The ability to have logosres automatically appear in citations would be a good start. 

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fgh | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Apr 23 2013 7:40 AM

Nice touch to bring in Bob to back you up.Big Smile

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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Apr 23 2013 7:58 AM

fgh:

Nice touch to bring in Bob to back you up.Big Smile

Well, you know. You do what you can. Smile

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