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Posts 12
Terri Young | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 6 2014 12:15 PM

Bradley Grainger (Faithlife):

We are still evaluating the market share of Windows Phone 8 before committing (significant) resources to developing an app for it.

See Bob's post from a couple of months ago for additional info: http://community.logos.com/forums/p/63184/447539.aspx#447539

I have been seeing the same type responses from other app developers, but I feel it is the lack of quality apps being developed for Windows phones that is driving the market toward Android or IOS phones. After all, any phone can make calls and send texts - so the deciding factor in phone sales is apps, OS, and phone design/structure.

Each time I have had the opportunity to upgrade my phone I have checked to see if there is a Logos Bible app and if it is comparable to the Android/IOS ones. Logos app is the most important app on my phone other than messaging and calling. Each time I have had to pick an Android or IOS phone because I don't want to lose the ability of taking my bible and library everywhere I go. Plus that app saves me a lot of neck strain reading my bible in bed at night hahaha

I am ever so grateful for the Android/IOS Logos App - I pray one day Windows phones will have the same app. If it's sales that will push developers, then I'll be switching to a Windows phone next time around.........

God Bless

Posts 64
Stephen Challen | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 8 2014 12:11 PM

The lack of Windows Apps for Logos, Faithlife etc is getting embarrassing not just for church leaders but to be blunt for Logos as well.

My family find ourselves buying devices we either don't like or want to use your facilities or we sit in church thinking why or why can I not do what those Apple and Android users do to aid their learning during the sermon and following through the bible passages that the pastor has kindly highlighted in his PowerPoint.

The crazy think is Logos started on the Windows platform !  Why then do you seem to hate Windows 8 Mobiles so much?  They use HTML 5 and when Microsoft launches the new OS they will be literally the same OS at their desktop counterparts.  Can you at least confirm that you will get this sorted for the launch of the next Windows OS launch e.g. Windows 10?

I know those who use Apple and Android like them but I prefer Windows every time.  Please, please respect us Windows users who are finding ourselves signing of thousands of dollars of Logos and Proclaim annual expenditure and still don't have enough respect from the programmers to get Windows apps!
I have been listing suggestions for resolution on Proclaim and other solutions and if you take them up like the Windows App, then we will be happy to keep with Proclaim and Faithlife otherwise we need to consider alternative solutions or even to consider developing our own.

Posts 80
Daniel R Bartholomew | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Dec 29 2014 7:19 AM

Here's the reality: the Windows environment for mobile devices does not seem to be making significant market penetration.  It appears market share for Windows phones actually declined in 2014 from 2013 (see http://www.idc.com/prodserv/smartphone-os-market-share.jsp).

I have a Surface Pro, and I'd love to have an app other than the full desktop version on it (Bluestacks with the Android app doesn't appear to work on it).  I'd also like to migrate from an iPhone to a Windows phone environment--but really, Logos is the main reason I still use an iPhone rather than a Windows phone (and why Android is the only other viable option for me in the smartphone world.)

I really can't see Faithlife investing much into such a tiny market share that does not seem to be growing.  From a numbers standpoint, concentrating on the Android (first and foremost) and then the Apple environments makes the most sense.

Posts 50
Joe Gschwandtner | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Dec 29 2014 7:24 AM

"Reality" - that argument may have held water until Universal Apps. Now that you can largely write the same app for Windows 8/8.1 and Windows Phone 8/8.1, there is plenty of market share (tens to hundreds of millions) that any justification not to release an app is long gone. At this point, it's unwillingness to revisit a business decision that may or may not have made sense at the time, but does not now.

Logos, it's time for an announcement.

Posts 50
Joe Gschwandtner | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Dec 29 2014 7:35 AM

Let me pile on a little: we are not talking about something insignificant here. We're talking about ministering the word of God, sharing the Good News of salvation, the most significant task mankind ever received (that can only be done on this earth). We have invested our financial resources to fulfill this commission in a toolset that only works within its own system. I can buy books from any publisher I want and use the resources side-by-side, but digital resources are proprietary. We invested our ministry resources (stewardship, anyone?) in Logos. In return, I don't think it's unreasonable to expect some support to be able to use it on a computing environment used by tens to hundreds of millions of users. We're not talking about some esoteric Linux distribution here. Even if Logos was going to make web services available so we can write our own app, that would be something. Yet, leaving us out to pasture for years is more than disappointing.

Posts 521
Russ White | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Dec 29 2014 3:12 PM

Did Logos really check up on the iphone market penetration numbers when they first started development there? Or Android? Or even the original MAC/OS versions? No, they probably didn't... MAC was considered a dying platform -- MS rescued it by porting Office over. Logos continued to supporting the MAC through the entire fall in market share, etc. So there's clearly something else going on here other than market share. I'm not certain what it is, but from the outside, the "market share" excuse is wearing really thin. Let's turn the question around -- how much of the low market share of windows platforms is because play this game of, "it doesn't have market share." It's a self fulfilling prophecy. And it's time it stopped.

Russ

Posts 13386
Forum MVP
Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Dec 29 2014 5:40 PM

Russ White:
Did Logos really check up on the iphone market penetration numbers when they first started development there? Or Android? Or even the original MAC/OS versions? No, they probably didn't... MAC was considered a dying platform -- MS rescued it by porting Office over. Logos continued to supporting the MAC through the entire fall in market share, etc. So there's clearly something else going on here other than market share.

To be fair, market share's been a pretty common mantra. Mac development began years later than PC development, and market share was always the reason given. Likewise for Android, whose Logos app wasn't released until 2011, nearly two years after the iOS app.

Russ White:
Let's turn the question around -- how much of the low market share of windows platforms is because play this game of, "it doesn't have market share." It's a self fulfilling prophecy. And it's time it stopped

I agree - but it's hardly Logos' responsibility to try and solve that problem.

Posts 232
Genghis | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Dec 29 2014 7:55 PM

Daniel R Bartholomew:
I really can't see Faithlife investing much into such a tiny market share that does not seem to be growing.  From a numbers standpoint, concentrating on the Android (first and foremost) and then the Apple environments makes the most sense.

I'm not sure that there is much development investment involved.  Porting over a Windows Phone version shouldn't be that much work since the language tools are very similar now and the big strategic decisions about design and what functionality should make it onto a mobile device have already been made through the Android/iOS experience.  . 

Maybe the bigger investment is on the post development maintenance side.  After it has been developed there is a bigger maintenance and test workload required to ensure that the three mobile apps are kept up to date as each platform evolves. 

Posts 232
Genghis | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Dec 29 2014 8:02 PM

Stephen Challen:
My family find ourselves buying devices we either don't like or want to use your facilities or we sit in church thinking why or why can I not do what those Apple and Android users do to aid their learning during the sermon and following through the bible passages that the pastor has kindly highlighted in his PowerPoint.

I wonder if Windows Phone users are keen enough to pay USD 10 for a Logos app.  I for one would drop ten bucks for it in a heart beat.  Now, that would mean if there were a thousand Logos users on WP, who did the same, then Logos would gain $10,000 in incremental revenue more than what they are getting from iOS and Android users who pay nothing at all.

Perhaps that is a better business case than just trying to argue that Logos should develop a WP mobile app for the sake of customer service. 

Posts 80
Daniel R Bartholomew | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 14 2015 8:57 AM

Genghis:

Daniel R Bartholomew:
I really can't see Faithlife investing much into such a tiny market share that does not seem to be growing.  From a numbers standpoint, concentrating on the Android (first and foremost) and then the Apple environments makes the most sense.

I'm not sure that there is much development investment involved.  Porting over a Windows Phone version shouldn't be that much work since the language tools are very similar now and the big strategic decisions about design and what functionality should make it onto a mobile device have already been made through the Android/iOS experience.  . 

Maybe the bigger investment is on the post development maintenance side.  After it has been developed there is a bigger maintenance and test workload required to ensure that the three mobile apps are kept up to date as each platform evolves. 

You're probably right--post-development is probably more significant.  It's a commitment to provide ongoing support, not just "let's write a program and then forget about it."  Either way, though, it means FaithLife's resources (which are not infinite) would be pulled into supporting a platform with a small user base.

Perhaps the better solution would be to support biblia.com as a universal (cross-platform) application on the standard mobile web browsers.  It's not a perfect solution, as it requires internet connectivity, but it could be a way to support the tiny market share of Windows Phone users.  (And yes, it's a tiny market share...though it could change.)

Posts 50
Joe Gschwandtner | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 14 2015 9:21 AM

Either way, though, it means FaithLife's resources (which are not infinite) would be pulled into supporting a platform with a small user base.

HUMBUG.

There are tens of millions of Windows Phone users. That's plenty to support a development effort. An Universal App would eventually reach over a billion people since it also includes all regular Windows users. Granted, many haven't moved to Windows 8 or Windows 10 yet, but eventually they will (software obsolescence), and hundreds of millions already have. Mac is what is a small market share (less than a third of Windows 8/8.1 alone), and yet Logos is throwing serious money at it. Note that this is a separate platform that is incompatible with iOS or Windows, so it's a far greater effort than creating a universal app when you already have a Windows code base.

It's a management decision, and there are no market share numbers that support this decision, certainly since universal apps made Windows Phone and Windows a single platform. The market share argument is dead as a doornail. Note also that no one from Logos has made that argument in a while.

Posts 13386
Forum MVP
Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 14 2015 9:58 AM

Joe Gschwandtner:
It's a management decision, and there are no market share numbers that support this decision, certainly since universal apps made Windows Phone and Windows a single platform.

Universal apps have barely even happened yet, and won't begin to have an effect until at least Windows 10. That's a way off yet.

Posts 50
Joe Gschwandtner | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 14 2015 10:03 AM

Not true. Universal apps work on Windows Phone and Windows 8/8.1 now and are being published daily, and nothing keeps Logos from creating one today. As a matter of fact, it would be by far the wisest route. I'm not sure which "effect" you think would be delayed until Windows 10.

Posts 80
Daniel R Bartholomew | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 14 2015 10:13 AM

Joe Gschwandtner:

Either way, though, it means FaithLife's resources (which are not infinite) would be pulled into supporting a platform with a small user base.

HUMBUG.

There are tens of millions of Windows Phone users. That's plenty to support a development effort. An Universal App would eventually reach over a billion people since it also includes all regular Windows users. Granted, many haven't moved to Windows 8 or Windows 10 yet, but eventually they will (software obsolescence), and hundreds of millions already have. Mac is what is a small market share (less than a third of Windows 8/8.1 alone), and yet Logos is throwing serious money at it. Note that this is a separate platform that is incompatible with iOS or Windows, so it's a far greater effort than creating a universal app when you already have a Windows code base.

It's a management decision, and there are no market share numbers that support this decision, certainly since universal apps made Windows Phone and Windows a single platform. The market share argument is dead as a doornail. Note also that no one from Logos has made that argument in a while.

Joe, not only is the market share for Windows phones low, but it is actually dropping--see http://news.softpedia.com/news/Windows-Phone-Loses-Users-in-Almost-Every-Single-Big-Market-469324.shtml  Keep in mind that only one of the countries listed, Italy, currently has market penetration in double digits, and even that is sharply down from the prior year.  Yes, you could argue that the efforts spent on Mac is on a tiny market share as well, but I would say that would suggest that it might not be the best business decision--unless Mac market share is growing.  I'm not sure if it is or not, and if not, then I'd suggest it's not the best way to allocate resources.

Those "tens of millions" aren't going to mean much if they aren't interested in Logos.  Of course, FaithLife could invest resources in developing and supporting a Windows Phone app with the hope that either (a) current Logos users are/will be migrating to a Windows platform or (b) current Windows phone users are/will be migrating to Logos (and keep in mind that tens of millions of Android and iPhone users are not Christians, much less interested in Bible software.)

Posts 50
Joe Gschwandtner | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 14 2015 10:30 AM

Let's look at that argument:

1. These aren't market share numbers. These are percentage of new sales in the various quarters. In some cases, Microsoft may have actually sold more phones than the quarter/year before, just not as much more as Android did. Any of these sales may increase the established base (some will be replacements).

2. Looking at tens of millions of users and saying, "I'm not sure whether you'll be interested" would be a peculiar argument. There are ways to answer that question, and no indication Logos is trying to find out.

3. Universal apps will be available for Windows Phone and Windows. At this point, you have a nine-digit potential audience (Windows 8/8.1 and Windows Phone), and as people upgrade operating systems (XP, Vista, 7 replaced by 8/8.1, 10), easily a potential audience equaling Android and exceeding iOS. This is no longer a 3.X% market share user base. No one knows for sure where the PC/mobile markets are going to go, but Microsoft has enough base that they will be a very significant player. Hiding behind "Windows Phone has only 3.X% market share" is a smoke screen that ignores that Microsoft has changed the equation.

4. Several of the market share research companies have been called out recently for producing very fishy numbers. Don't put too much weight on their information ( http://www.zdnet.com/article/more-weird-science-web-analytics-firms-kick-off-new-year-with-suspicious-statistics/ ).

BTW, if I recall correctly, Mac share has been fairly stagnant. It's certainly not exploding with growth.

Posts 50
Joe Gschwandtner | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 14 2015 10:51 AM

So, what could Logos do?

If Logos was willing to engage in a conversation about this, I believe there are a variety of options that could be put on the table.

Obviously, some people might want an app that is feature-equivalent to the iOS and Android versions.

However, if Logos was open to start talking about at least some support, I think there would be a number of people open to considering options. For instance, if web services to certain features could be made available that allow a third party developer to build an app that exposes certain features (say, access to viewing and editing Notes), we'd at least start making some progress. There's documents.logos.com, so surely that type of thing could be done. We could develop a feature list of what Windows/Windows Phone users want. We do have access to full Logos on a product like the Surface, so the universal app may not need to offer everything an iPad would have. However, there are uses for which an app with touch (pen?) support is far superior, which may not be near as large a project as some would think.

Yet, as of now, Logos has not even appeared interested to talk to her customers about this for quite a while.

Posts 80
Daniel R Bartholomew | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 14 2015 10:56 AM

Joe Gschwandtner:

Let's look at that argument:

1. These aren't market share numbers. These are percentage of new sales in the various quarters. In some cases, Microsoft may have actually sold more phones than the quarter/year before, just not as much more as Android did. Any of these sales may increase the established base (some will be replacements).

You're correct, Joe--but keep in mind, new sales do influence current market share.  With the speed of technological advances, if new phones purchased for an OS declines, it has a fairly quick effect on market penetration.

2. Looking at tens of millions of users and saying, "I'm not sure whether you'll be interested" would be a peculiar argument. There are ways to answer that question, and no indication Logos is trying to find out.

I probably expressed myself poorly, Joe.  Basically, the argument for supporting a system with a small percentage of market share is saying "I think that there's a significant fraction that would buy my product for their platform...enough to justify allocating some resources for other platforms that likewise, probably have a small fraction wanting to buy my product, but their market share is significantly more.  In other words, does FaithLife think that (a) Windows Phone users would have a higher likelihood of buying Logos than Android or iOS users?  Or perhaps (b) just a high enough likelihood to justify the cost of development and support? I agree that a company should try to answer that question, and I would imagine that Faithlife engages in this kind of market research.

3. Universal apps will be available for Windows Phone and Windows. At this point, you have a nine-digit potential audience (Windows 8/8.1 and Windows Phone), and as people upgrade operating systems (XP, Vista, 7 replaced by 8/8.1, 10), easily a potential audience equaling Android and exceeding iOS. This is no longer a 3.X% market share user base. No one knows for sure where the PC/mobile markets are going to go, but Microsoft has enough base that they will be a very significant player. Hiding behind "Windows Phone has only 3.X% market share" is a smoke screen that ignores that Microsoft has changed the equation.

But the solution for Windows 8.1 users like me is to run full Logos on my Tablet.  Yes, I would love to see a more robust app, but I'd even more like to see the full desktop version to be more touch friendly.  If that happens, I have little need for a separate app.  YMMV.

4. Several of the market share research companies have been called out recently for producing very fishy numbers. Don't put too much weight on their information ( http://www.zdnet.com/article/more-weird-science-web-analytics-firms-kick-off-new-year-with-suspicious-statistics/ ).

That is unfortunate, and businesses need accurate data for their strategic planning.  When the numbers are misleading, it can misdirect company resources.

BTW, if I recall correctly, Mac share has been fairly stagnant. It's certainly not exploding with growth.

I'm not a Mac person, and I don't doubt it.  I love Windows 8.1 and I have no desire to enter the Mac world.  I wouldn't be surprised if companies like FaithLife start scaling back their investment in this market, if it's becoming more and more of a niche.

Daniel

Posts 50
Joe Gschwandtner | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 14 2015 11:05 AM

But the solution for Windows 8.1 users like me is to run full Logos on my Tablet.  Yes, I would love to see a more robust app, but I'd even more like to see the full desktop version to be more touch friendly.  If that happens, I have little need for a separate app.  YMMV.

That's why I'm not asking for a full-featured app myself (not that I would be upset if they built one ;-). I'd like to have a quick way to add to my notes. I'm listening to someone, and I want to put it into my library so that if I'm preaching on this topic in a year, I can use that quote. Currently, I'm trying that via a Word doc hosted on OneDrive for Business and imported as a personal book. A proper way to view and edit Notes would be awesome, especially on the phone. I tried to use the Windows modern reading app, but it has no highlighting functionality. If we could have the same highlighting options as the desktop version so I can visually (with all colors available) mark up the book I'm reading, I'd probably be satisfied. I'd like a smoother reading experience than Biblia gives me today on my phone, but I'm hobbling along for now.

I don't think it would take a lot to provide some great steps forward for us. As a matter of fact, if they're willing to give third party developers the interfaces to do it, it could be hardly any work on their part. But all we're hearing is silence.

Posts 80
Daniel R Bartholomew | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 14 2015 11:13 AM

Joe Gschwandtner:

But the solution for Windows 8.1 users like me is to run full Logos on my Tablet.  Yes, I would love to see a more robust app, but I'd even more like to see the full desktop version to be more touch friendly.  If that happens, I have little need for a separate app.  YMMV.

That's why I'm not asking for a full-featured app myself (not that I would be upset if they built one ;-). I'd like to have a quick way to add to my notes. I'm listening to someone, and I want to put it into my library so that if I'm preaching on this topic in a year, I can use that quote. Currently, I'm trying that via a Word doc hosted on OneDrive for Business and imported as a personal book. A proper way to view and edit Notes would be awesome, especially on the phone. I tried to use the Windows modern reading app, but it has no highlighting functionality. If we could have the same highlighting options as the desktop version so I can visually (with all colors available) mark up the book I'm reading, I'd probably be satisfied. I'd like a smoother reading experience than Biblia gives me today on my phone, but I'm hobbling along for now.

I don't think it would take a lot to provide some great steps forward for us. As a matter of fact, if they're willing to give third party developers the interfaces to do it, it could be hardly any work on their part. But all we're hearing is silence.

I agree, Joe--the two features I'd most like to see on a Windows Touch App would be (1) View, Add & Edit Notes and (2) View, Add & Edit Highlights.  Those two features would be enough to satisfy many of the touch app limitations today.

I remember when the iOS app was in the state that the Windows App is today (no highlighting, no notes) I used a competitor's product that supported these items until FaithLife developed their app more, and when they did, I was very happy.  But now that I have a Surface Pro, I find I'm using the full desktop version more.  Whenever I eventually replace my iPhone, I would consider a Windows phone if there was a good way to use Logos on it (hence my Biblia comments...that might be the avenue that would offer the most return to FaithLife.)

Daniel

Posts 50
Joe Gschwandtner | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 14 2015 11:15 AM
If they simply expanded documents.logos.com to allow editing and creating of notes, and made it mobile friendly, they could answer that need in no time at all, and everyone would benefit.
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