Is It OK if I dislike Noet?

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Benjamin Varghese | Forum Activity | Posted: Fri, Jun 28 2013 11:11 AM
I understand that Logos is a business and not a ministry having full rights to charge as they choose for their products and services. I buy Products from a lot of stores but do not bother about, nor am I entitled to bother about, how the owners spend the profits. I hold the same to be true for Logos. However to myself I justified the relatively high prices, and purchasing of bundles of books when I wanted only a few, with the reason that the money is also invested back into enhancing Logos and Christian books, in addition to the superior value i get. For example, I am thankful that when I paid for a Logos 3 Package, I got future upgrades to resources, core engines, and mobile apps without paying extra - though I did pay to upgrade to higher packages and even Logos 5. Now comes Noet which is more secular in nature compared to Vyrso or Verbum. There is a bit of selfish discomfort in me to think that probably some of the money that could have been invested to enhancing Logos to make me happier, is now going into something that I am not very much interested in. All this stems from the selfish unilateral expectations and trust that Logos customers like me have placed in Logos - that it is at least in some unstated way a ministry, and Christian in nature. The shift caused by Noet is bit disturbing, and I thought it would be nice to let this out to gain some  perspective :-)
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Mark Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 28 2013 11:19 AM

Peter,

Just to look at it from a different perspective:

The secular market segment is much larger than the Christian Bible software segment. If Logos' future tools are developed as a result of a large influx of secular users and the profits they bring to Logos, those of us who use Logos just for Bible study purposes will be the benefactors.

Now I don't think Noet will soon, if ever be, a substantial portion of Logos' business, so your point that secular users would be net benefiters from our contribution to Logos' profit now and perhaps forever is valid.

Pastor, North Park Baptist Church

Bridgeport, CT USA

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fgh | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 28 2013 12:02 PM

Peter Lever:
There is a bit of selfish discomfort in me

Selfishness is one major reason I love Logos' reaching out to other markets. These new customers will help me get resources I want that are either languishing in CP, or not even available to bid on yet.

Btw, have you seen that there is a new forum for Noet. Your question/comments would fit better there. The L5 forum is more meant for technical questions about the software itself.

"The Christian way of life isn't so much an assignment to be performed, as a gift to be received."  Wilfrid Stinissen

Mac Pro OS 10.9.

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Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 28 2013 12:29 PM

I think Bob's Pritchett's blog post should address some of your concerns. It will benefit the Christian Logos users immensely to have an increase in paying customers for Logos's core engine and non-religious texts:

"Noet is a way of extending our reach to a new set of users. Quite simply, Noet will allow us to sell tools and ebooks to people who would never buy Bible software, funding the digitization of texts we otherwise would not be able afford, and helping spread out the costs of ongoing software development.

The result will be a larger library for all our users, and an even stronger platform moving forward."

Don't worry. I don't think Logos is going to be getting into selling secular novels or random non-fiction like what Amazon.com dominates the market in. Noet is going to focus on scholarly literary/philosophical/historical texts of interest to all including Christians. It's just that there are a large number of potential users who would want to buy those texts too, and who would help spread the cost around to make them more affordable to the rest of us, but who wouldn't buy them if they were linked in to Bible software. So this is a way to bring in those users. And they'll have their own forum for discussing the software and resources, so they won't likely be coming in here and blasting the Bible or Christian Logos users on the Logos forums. And if we don't blast them either, we'll all be better off for it.

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Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 28 2013 12:36 PM

It's certainly OK if you dislike Noet.

Personally, I'm no more interested in Noet offerings than you are. However, given that Logos has had to develop Greek tools for all its users, and Latin tools particularly for Catholic users, then I can't see that Noet will distract from core development particularly. And there is a potential up side. Having morphologically tagged Greek texts will potentially useful for New Testament students, as they'll be able to compare the NT with classical literature, and look up references from lexicons in that literature. Significantly, the pre-pub programme allows Logos to develop most of this without risking many dollars at all, as they'll only produce files when there's sufficient demand.

And it's not as if these resources are coming out instead of Biblical studies material. There was a time when I used to buy everything Bible-related in Logos. That time has long gone, I can hardly keep up with new material nowadays.

So although I'm not interested in Noet personally, I'm not particularly worried that it's going to take Logos' attention or dollars away from their core business.

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Don Awalt | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 28 2013 12:47 PM

I am not that interested in Noet either, but I agree with and understand Logos' strategy to spread the development costs across a wider audience and market(s), so it will help me as a primarily Bible/theology customer.

That said, of the current postings on PrePub, I did order the Ancient Philosophy bundle, as Christian ideas in some cases came out of the terminology of Aristotle and Plato (for example, substance and essence by Aquinas). Aquinas relied on them a lot I have read, so I think I may learn some from this particular product. There may be others that have cross-audience appeal too.

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David Bailey | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 28 2013 12:49 PM

If only Logos had provided this new platform back in 1984 - I would have been a customer! Smile

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 28 2013 1:30 PM

Peter Lever:
There is a bit of selfish discomfort in me to think that probably some of the money that could have been invested to enhancing Logos to make me happier, is now going into something that I am not very much interested in.

I had a somewhat opposite response thinking that now Logos was going to have to fix some of its shortcomings because the academic side would demand it ... especially on place notes on the relationship between 2 texts, visual annotations correcting semantic and grammatic coding. maybe even counts on the text and on searches.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 28 2013 1:35 PM

David Bailey:

If only Logos had provided this new platform back in 1984 - I would have been a customer! Smile

Glad you ended up coming into the Logos fold through the Christian door, even if you weren't one yet back in 1984. Smile

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Floyd Johnson | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 28 2013 1:45 PM

I envision LOGOS eventually being the academic e-book product of choice.

My training includes the physical sciences (chemistry and computer science), the social science (counselor education), and the humanities (seminary MDiv) - given the tools built into LOGOS, my use of e-book resources could have been helped with the addition of LOGOS to the tools available for my use.  

I understand that they have started with the broader humanities, but I can foresee a day when the tools built into LOGOS can be used to assist in the study of fields across the academic spectrum.  I would expect that a separate division (ala Verbum and Noet) would be needed to support the larger academic market - but because LOGOS has the best tools available for study, I can picture it being adopted as the academic e-reader of choice for any number of publishers.

Blessings,
Floyd

Pastor-Patrick.blogspot.com

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Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 28 2013 2:00 PM

Floyd Johnson:
I understand that they have started with the broader humanities, but I can foresee a day when the tools built into LOGOS can be used to assist in the study of fields across the academic spectrum.  I would expect that a separate division (ala Verbum and Noet) would be needed to support the larger academic market - but because LOGOS has the best tools available for study, I can picture it being adopted as the academic e-reader of choice for any number of publishers.

Would be nice. I imagine they'd have to develop a lot of features that wouldn't be particularly useful to their core mission of Biblical studies though if they were to enter the scientific markets: ability to display and dynamically manipulate mathematical charts, databases of chemical elements and such. I'm guessing that is not on the radar screen in the next couple of decades. But perhaps if Logos becomes successful in reaching out to the secular market, their core mission will shift. It would make the original customers even more disappointed, though.

Their mission statement is still: "Our goal is to be the worldwide leader in electronic tools and resources for multilingual Bible study. Our mission is to serve the church. We believe that Bible study should be at the heart of the Christian life. It's our privilege to equip pastors, students, missionaries, teachers, and the church at large with tools that make Bible study easier and more accessible. It's our responsibility to ensure that the investment in technology we can afford to make because we serve the western church pays dividends for the whole world. Our hope is that as you learn more about Logos Bible Software you'll see it not only as the best Bible study tool anywhere, but also as a way to make Bible study resources more accessible to the church in developing countries."

I don't think the rolling out of Noet has changed that fundamental mission, but I might be wrong.

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tom | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 28 2013 2:23 PM

MJ. Smith:
thinking that now Logos was going to have to fix some of its shortcomings because the academic side would demand it .
Yes

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Milford Charles Murray | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 28 2013 3:10 PM

Peace to my Logos Forums Brothers and Sisters ....

           Frankly, I am so very pleased with the Liberal Arts Education, heavy on Theology and The Humanities, that I did receive ....

 

                                    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_arts_education

When one looks at the connection between Liberal Arts and the Humanities and the training of the clergy over the many years this is a "natural" for Logos ...

                                 Thank you, Bob!             Indeed Thou Art a Visionary!    *smile*

            Frankly, I think it's so sad that Liberal Arts and The Humanities are not "stressed" today ....

 

            Frankly, Noet pleases me "no end"!!!          *smile*

Philippians 4:  4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........

Posts 308
Dean J | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 28 2013 3:40 PM

I think Noet is a great idea, and it will benefit all of us. 

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Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 28 2013 3:46 PM

Milford Charles Murray:

When one looks at the connection between Liberal Arts and the Humanities and the training of the clergy over the many years this is a "natural" for Logos ...

            Frankly, I think it's so sad that Liberal Arts and The Humanities are not "stressed" today ....

I think a lot of Christians have been misinformed and have mostly rejected the Liberal Arts and the Humanities because they thought the former was "liberal" which is a bad word in their lexicon, and they thought the latter had to do with "humanism" which is another bad word in their lexicon (both of those are not actually bad, but that's a story for another day). It's very a unfortunate misconception, and congregations whose pastors were trained without a strong background in the liberal arts and humanities have been the poorer for it, and have perpetuated this misconception. It's ironic, because the great clergymen of the past whom they often laud were trained well in the liberal arts and humanities. They knew their Greek and Latin classics and English literature and philosophy. And more. They were often polymaths (and that has nothing to do with mathematics other than it being one of the many subjects that polymaths are knowledgeable in). Would that our pastors today were all so broadly educated!

Posts 171
Adam Rao | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 28 2013 3:55 PM

"Noet is a way of extending our reach to a new set of users. Quite simply, Noet will allow us to sell tools and ebooks to people who would never buy Bible software, funding the digitization of texts we otherwise would not be able afford, and helping spread out the costs of ongoing software development."

If this ends up being true – and it's a big "if;" how in the world is Logos going to compete with someone like Amazon, where people can already buy works by Aristotle et al. for their Kindle? – then it will be extremely beneficial. I think of something like The New Interpreter's Bible, for example. So far, there haven't been enough Pre-Pub orders to make it happen and Abingdon has seemingly been quite silly with Logos (and its competitors). If Logos gains a far greater user base than it already does, it's almost a guarantee that (a) Abingdon will take notice and (b) Logos will be able to produce almost anything it wants to because the funding is there to do so.

But, again – it's still a big "if."

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Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 28 2013 4:10 PM

Adam Rao:
If Logos gains a far greater user base than it already does

I'm wondering how Logos is going to market Noet to the wider world. A blog post and tweets from a company that has been entirely ignored by the non-religious academic world thus far are not going to have any effect. They are going to have to start buying ads in scholarly journals, pitching academic sales at non-theological universities and graduate schools, going for major online ad campaigns on major general websites that appeal to non-religious types (Google, CNN, Huffington Post, etc.) and much more more (maybe a Superbowl ad?) if they're going to make a dent in Amazon's share of that market.

Maybe they should also consider partnering with other scholarly research sites (Questia, Highbeam Research, Google Scholar), online scholarly e-text sites (JSTOR, Sage Publications) and online education sites (edX, Coursera, Udacity, Khan Academy). However some of these places would be competitors of Logos's new venture, and the latter four appeal to people who want only free content who would never pay for Noet books.

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Milford Charles Murray | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 28 2013 4:36 PM

Blessings, Rosie!      *smile*                   I'm very surprised at how much you've already thought many of these through.    Thanks for sharing .......

Philippians 4:  4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........

Posts 8899
fgh | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 28 2013 4:54 PM

I imagine they'll use the same methods they've used to get into the Catholic market:

  • Locate the most influential bloggers and offer them a free copy in return for an honest review.
  • Locate the most respected professors and offer them a free copy in return for an honest endorsement.
  • Show up on the most important conferences.
  • Spread the word on Twitter and Facebook.

(I presume they've used ads as well, but I wouldn't know to what extent.)

"The Christian way of life isn't so much an assignment to be performed, as a gift to be received."  Wilfrid Stinissen

Mac Pro OS 10.9.

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Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 28 2013 5:02 PM

Milford Charles Murray:
I'm very surprised at how much you've already thought many of these through.

I've been an avid researcher for years, and I subscribe to many online research sites to aid in my searches for information. I subscribe to Questia, HighBeam and the Literary Encyclopedia, and I maintain my academic affiliation by continuing to audit courses so that I can have access to e-journals (through JSTOR, Sage Publications, EBSCO, ProQuest, Oxford Journals Online, etc.), the online OED, ATLA, TREN, and much much more.

I've also become very intrigued by the whole open source online education movement and have my eye on taking some online courses through Coursera or one of the others when I have some time.

So yeah, it was natural for me to think through the potential for missed opportunities with Logos starting up the Noet venture. Academics are out there in droves doing their research in many ways. Logos needs to get to them and let them know about this new treasure trove. However most of them who have academic library access already have free or relatively inexpensive ways of gaining access to all the materials they would ever need, with semi-decent search engines (though admittedly the resources are not all inter-linked, which is Logos's strength), so I'm not all that certain that owning entire collections of digital texts is what they'll want. Logos should seriously consider adding a subscription model for Noet. I'm guessing they've already been thinking of this...

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