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Posts 466
Butters | Forum Activity | Posted: Tue, Jul 23 2013 4:38 PM

I am not a Dante scholar and only read Italian at a very basic level.  I've been looking for a basic text to cut my proverbial teeth on, and someone sent me this:  http://www.amazon.com/Dante-Alighieris-Inferno-Metaphor-Illustrations/dp/1896584144/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1374622062&sr=8-1&keywords=interlinear+dante

I bet his market is pretty small and he'd be very willing to enter into an agreement with Logos; and a digital Dante Lexicon/dictionary shouldn't be too hard to get our hands on.  This would be similar to what was done with John Jackson, I imagine, who independently put together the interlinear Iliad that is currently in the Perseus collection. 

The great thing about this sort of strategy is, you would pull in many Dante Scholars/students - who, in turn, would be interested in many of Logos' other offerings, particularly the Catholic and even the Classics material.  So it would also make sense from a marketing perspective.  

It seems to me that the strength of Logos is in it's ability to leverage all its resources to bear on a text, particularly one that is not English.  So if Logos is going to expand what is meant by "Classics" I should think expanding in the direction of original language texts will be the most useful and, for them, profitable.   

For example, I can pick up a cheap copy of any number of translations of The Divine Comedy; and read them just as well in an actual paper book than on Logos, if not better. 

However, it is not nearly as easy to get one's hands on the Italian text; and I cannot think of a better "place" to tackle it than in logos, if Logos had a Dante-focused Dictionary/lexicon.

Now, THAT would be something; and now you'll surely have Dante scholars interested; who, in turn, would probably be drawn into your Verbum offerings, etc.  

Just a suggestion  Smile

“To love means loving the unlovable.  To forgive means pardoning the unpardonable.  Faith means believing the unbelievable.  Hope means hoping when everything seems hopeless.” ~Chesterton

Posts 466
Butters | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 26 2013 7:09 AM

Mr. Micawber:

It seems to me that the strength of Logos is in it's ability to leverage all its resources to bear on a text, particularly one that is not English.  So if Logos is going to expand what is meant by "Classics" I should think expanding in the direction of original language texts will be the most useful and, for them, profitable.   

For example, I can pick up a cheap copy of any number of translations of The Divine Comedy; and read them just as well in an actual paper book than on Logos, if not better. 

In other words, Logos should try to resist the temptation of trying to compete in the very general digital reading market.  See here for example:  http://community.logos.com/forums/t/73142.aspx.  This is the way the world is going.  And Logos has an amazing niche - focus on it, defend it, get entrenched it it, dominate it.  Focus on complex texts that require interlinked resources to read well.  

“To love means loving the unlovable.  To forgive means pardoning the unpardonable.  Faith means believing the unbelievable.  Hope means hoping when everything seems hopeless.” ~Chesterton

Posts 10523
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 26 2013 7:12 AM

Dante is indeed a pretty large market.

"I didn't know God made honky tonk angels."

Posts 466
Butters | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 26 2013 7:13 AM

Denise:

Dante is indeed a pretty large market.

It is Denise!  It's almost an industry unto itself, as Shakespeare has become.  Smile

It's also the sort of people it would draw into Logos - academic, scholarly, language-focused; the sort of people who might very well be interested in the theological-biblical studies that Logos offers; Verbum; or the Classical Greek & Latin offerings.   

“To love means loving the unlovable.  To forgive means pardoning the unpardonable.  Faith means believing the unbelievable.  Hope means hoping when everything seems hopeless.” ~Chesterton

Posts 18822
Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 26 2013 7:29 AM

I would love to have a Dante interlinear. I read through the Divine Comedy a couple of years ago with a reading group. It was my first time, and I hope it's not my last.

Posts 466
Butters | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 26 2013 9:06 AM

Rosie Perera:

I would love to have a Dante interlinear. I read through the Divine Comedy a couple of years ago with a reading group. It was my first time, and I hope it's not my last.

I couldn't agree more Rosie - once I began to read Dante last year, he's become utterly essential.  Smile

“To love means loving the unlovable.  To forgive means pardoning the unpardonable.  Faith means believing the unbelievable.  Hope means hoping when everything seems hopeless.” ~Chesterton

Posts 4625
RIP
Milford Charles Murray | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 26 2013 9:36 AM

Rosie Perera:

I would love to have a Dante interlinear. I read through the Divine Comedy a couple of years ago with a reading group. It was my first time, and I hope it's not my last.

I'd also love a Dante interlinear!                  *smile*

                  My eldest grandson gave me another dead-tree classical version of Dante for Christmas -- I have the Harvard version and a bunch of other "stuff" in Logos ...                  even have a "Divine Comedy" Layout!                     *smile*                                             Peace!

Philippians 4:  4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........

Posts 466
Butters | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 26 2013 9:53 AM

Milford Charles Murray:
even have a "Divine Comedy" Layout!    

Hi there Milford.  Smile  I'm wondering what you mean by ^ there?  

“To love means loving the unlovable.  To forgive means pardoning the unpardonable.  Faith means believing the unbelievable.  Hope means hoping when everything seems hopeless.” ~Chesterton

Posts 4625
RIP
Milford Charles Murray | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 26 2013 2:27 PM

Butters:

Milford Charles Murray:
even have a "Divine Comedy" Layout!    

Hi there Milford.  Smile  I'm wondering what you mean by ^ there?  

Blessings to you, Butters!            *smile*                          I meant a standard Logos 5 work Layout  -- (attaching screenshot!)

I have a couple of floating windows so you can't see everything; however, perhaps this gives you the idea ...

Psalm 29:11

Philippians 4:  4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........

Posts 476
elnwood | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 26 2013 2:38 PM

I still have an English-Italian copy of Dante's Inferno (Pinsky's translation). Unfortunately, my Italian is nowhere near as good as it was in college, so I haven't used it in a while.

It would be great to have both an Italian and English version of the Inferno. I'm not so sure that an interlinear would be worthwhile.

I don't think there is any standard scholar edition of the Inferno, and there are literally dozens of translations available in English. So what translation would you do? The Inferno is poetry with a terza rima rhyming scheme. While some of the older English translations are very literal in their translation, the newer ones are more free and poetic, and often make an attempt to emulate Dante's original terza rima. I think this is a better way to translate the Inferno, but it doesn't really lend itself to an interlinear.

I think what would be better would be to have 1) several Inferno translations that you can compare with Text Compare (a bunch are public domain) and 2) a good Italian-English dictionary.

Posts 18822
Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 26 2013 3:02 PM

elnwood:
I don't think there is any standard scholar edition of the Inferno, and there are literally dozens of translations available in English. So what translation would you do?

Here's a post where I gave my recommendations, from among the many translations that I have.

http://community.logos.com/forums/p/71975/501829.aspx#501829

Doing a word-for-word interlinear would be difficult with most good translations. Only a really wooden translation would lend itself to that. But perhaps a line-by-line one would work. Or just have the Italian and English editions indexed by line so you can scroll them together. But it would be good to have a good Italian-English dictionary integrated into our Library in order to be able to take a stab at reading it. Anyone have one they would recommend? Logos doesn't have an Italian dictionary at all yet.

Posts 466
Butters | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 26 2013 3:06 PM

Hi Elnwood Smile

I suppose what I'd personally want to see is:

  • An Italian text, morphologically tagged, etc.  I'm betting there's a digital variorum text. There's the Dante digital text projects at Princeton, at Columbia, at Dartmouth, etc.  All over the world in fact.    
  • A good dictionary and lexicon and commentary
  • And a few literal translations - most of which are probably in the public domain now. And Longfellow's just for nostalgia Smile  

Personally, I'm not really interested in "poetic" translations per se.  Rather, I am much more interested in getting closer to the actual original language text.  

As you're no doubt aware, the difference between any translation and the original text is, well, almost unbridgeable.  Wasn't it Robert Frost who said that what's lost in the translation is the actual poetry?  

Also, I hate to be quoting myself, but I feel strongly about this:  

Butters:

Mr. Micawber:

It seems to me that the strength of Logos is in it's ability to leverage all its resources to bear on a text, particularly one that is not English. So if Logos is going to expand what is meant by "Classics" I should think expanding in the direction of original language texts will be the most useful and, for them, profitable.

For example, I can pick up a cheap copy of any number of translations of The Divine Comedy; and read them just as well in an actual paper book than on Logos, if not better.

In other words, Logos should try to resist the temptation of trying to compete in the very general digital reading market.

See here for example: 

http://community.logos.com/forums/t/73142.aspx.  The thread.....Why "Send to Kindle" Must be a Priority

This is the way the world is going. And Logos has an amazing niche - focus on it, defend it, get entrenched it it, dominate it.

In other words, focus on complex texts that require interlinked resources to read well.

“To love means loving the unlovable.  To forgive means pardoning the unpardonable.  Faith means believing the unbelievable.  Hope means hoping when everything seems hopeless.” ~Chesterton

Posts 466
Butters | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 26 2013 3:12 PM

Rosie Perera:
Doing a word-for-word interlinear would be difficult with most good translations. Only a really wooden translation would lend itself to that.

This is very true.  The "wooden" translation is, well, merely a "wooden" crutch, if I may.  This wooden crutch is mighty usful in supporting the much more important task of getting closer to the original text.  Eventually one can kick the said "wooden" crutch out from underneath. Smile

John Jackson's interlinear Iliad - the one used by Perseus/Logos - is a very good example.  It's nearly incomprehensible; but to a student a welcome crutch for the beginner.  

“To love means loving the unlovable.  To forgive means pardoning the unpardonable.  Faith means believing the unbelievable.  Hope means hoping when everything seems hopeless.” ~Chesterton

Posts 138
Michael Grigoni | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 16 2013 9:35 AM

It's not an interlinear, but we've posted Focus Publishing/R. Pullin's edition of Dante's Inferno.

Posts 466
Butters | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Aug 18 2013 11:07 AM

That's great Mike - it looks like an interesting translation actually; I've been looking into it.  It would be great to see a tagged, original language text.

~Butters Smile 

“To love means loving the unlovable.  To forgive means pardoning the unpardonable.  Faith means believing the unbelievable.  Hope means hoping when everything seems hopeless.” ~Chesterton

Posts 466
Butters | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Sep 20 2014 8:51 AM

So, this is not bad:  http://dantelab.dartmouth.edu/reader

Its real strength is its PLETHORA* of commentaries.  Sure would be grand to get original language tagged text tho.  Big Smile  I know I sound like a broken record but it seems to me that this is the real strength of Logos - and not trying to compete with a billion-free-non-copyrighted-books-cum-reader.  Dante is a world-wide cottage industry rivaling even our perennial obsession with Shakespeare.  You guys have the software; Dartmouth is trying to work in this direction it seems.

Anyhoo, that's all I have to say for the moment.  

~Butters Smile 

*And, yes, I do know what a "plethora" is...lol  Wink

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-mTUmczVdik

“To love means loving the unlovable.  To forgive means pardoning the unpardonable.  Faith means believing the unbelievable.  Hope means hoping when everything seems hopeless.” ~Chesterton

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