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Posts 466
Butters | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 31 2013 10:17 AM

Well, I can check this but Aristotle and Plato were almost certainly included in the first round of original Loebs - and they are undoubtedly in the PD at this point.  

“To love means loving the unlovable.  To forgive means pardoning the unpardonable.  Faith means believing the unbelievable.  Hope means hoping when everything seems hopeless.” ~Chesterton

Posts 466
Butters | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 31 2013 10:18 AM

Mike Grigoni:
although I believe both were a case in which not all of the volumes are in the public domain.

Thanks for your post Mike.  Smile

The original round of Loebs in the early 20th century must be in the PD by now, methinks.  I'd be glad to check on this though.  

“To love means loving the unlovable.  To forgive means pardoning the unpardonable.  Faith means believing the unbelievable.  Hope means hoping when everything seems hopeless.” ~Chesterton

Posts 466
Butters | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 31 2013 10:23 AM

David Bailey:

Butters:
However, you can learn Greek!  Lots of peeps like me are eager to help too!

I've always wanted a liberal (arts) education. Gone are the days when the study of men (edit: and women) consisted of theology, mathematics, engineering, and the Western classics.

Learning Greek is an option, but unfortunately, I'm not able to invest in the time. Sad

One thing to keep in mind is that it's actually very difficult to put long hours into language study, and not nearly as effective in the long run; much better off doing 1/2 to an hour a day.  Most everyone can do so; but it does take a kind of insane discipline to do that every day for years.  However, it would open up worlds upon worlds David.  Smile

To be perfectly honest, it is exceedingly rare for anyone to have a genuine liberal arts education, in ANY age.  The people who truly did in the past were a decidedly small minority.  Same is true today; even more so perhaps.  

However, it is NEVER too late to start on obtaining a liberal arts education; and it's never something you permanently have anyway; rather it's a process and a way of life.  

If I can ever be of any help, just give me a shout.  Many hugs to thee.  

Cheers,

Butters Smile 

“To love means loving the unlovable.  To forgive means pardoning the unpardonable.  Faith means believing the unbelievable.  Hope means hoping when everything seems hopeless.” ~Chesterton

Posts 466
Butters | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 1 2013 4:59 AM

Butters:

Greg F:

Please add me to those who would like to see Plato and Aristotle in Greek Loeb editions. In fact, I'm kind of surprised they didn't roll these out at the very first: if you're going to promote Noet using Plato and Aristotle, why wouldn't you make the effort to scan and tag the Greek too?  I imagine a lot of the target audience for the new offer are people who are less interested in antiquated public domain translations (both of which I bought in CP) than they are getting access to the original language tools. 

Very well said Greg - this has long puzzled me too.  Smile

....and, well, still puzzles me.  Smile

The Lattimore translations are very good, as I mentioned above.  However, Lattimore's translations can be found in used bookstores for next to nothing; and the advantages accrued to the reader by reading a translation in Logos seem marginal at best.  

On the other hand, the advantages of having a tagged text, and the ability to bring to bear all of the original language tools of Logos to bear on that text, are well-neigh tremendous.  It seems to me that this is where Logos really shines.  And where Logos ought to focus.  

Yes, I am a broken record.....lol  Big Smile

Okay, so as far as Plato and Aristotle and public Domain:  

First, allow me to introduce to you a wonderful resource:  http://www.edonnelly.com/google.html

And within this resource, most conveniently, we find the old Loebs listed here:  http://www.edonnelly.com/loebs.html

If we look at, say, The Republic, we find this:  http://archive.org/details/republicshorey01platuoft

As far as I know, all of the old Loebs have been replaced - most of mine (and I have many, many Loebs) all date from the 1990s, I believe.  I have an old catalog of Loeb publications; the catalog is dated 1979, and most of the volumes in the catalog predate WWI, and certainly WWII.  

So I should think that pretty much every Aristotle and Plato volume of the early Loebs are now in the PD.  

~Butters Smile

“To love means loving the unlovable.  To forgive means pardoning the unpardonable.  Faith means believing the unbelievable.  Hope means hoping when everything seems hopeless.” ~Chesterton

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Bruce Dunning | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 1 2013 6:08 AM

Butters:
One thing to keep in mind is that it's actually very difficult to put long hours into language study, and not nearly as effective in the long run; much better off doing 1/2 to an hour a day.  Most everyone can do so; but it does take a kind of insane discipline to do that every day for years.

This is so true when it comes to learning anything. A little bit every day can make a huge difference in learning and especially learning a language. Over the last several years I have created a reading plan in Logos to read my Greek NT through each year and this has really helped.

Using adventure and community to challenge young people to continually say "yes" to God

Posts 466
Butters | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 1 2013 6:14 AM
Bruce Dunning:

Butters:
One thing to keep in mind is that it's actually very difficult to put long hours into language study, and not nearly as effective in the long run; much better off doing 1/2 to an hour a day.  Most everyone can do so; but it does take a kind of insane discipline to do that every day for years.

This is so true when it comes to learning anything. A little bit every day can make a huge difference in learning and especially learning a language. Over the last several years I have created a reading plan in Logos to read my Greek NT through each year and this has really helped.

Yes, it's a kind of temptation to believe otherwise: that one can cram 10 years worth of language study in 3 months, but it just ain't so. The brain doesn't work that way, particularly with languages. Kudos to you Bruce for realizing this and creating a system to discipline yourself.

“To love means loving the unlovable.  To forgive means pardoning the unpardonable.  Faith means believing the unbelievable.  Hope means hoping when everything seems hopeless.” ~Chesterton

Posts 4625
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Milford Charles Murray | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 1 2013 5:32 PM

Peace, Guys!

                      This is a bit, off topic ...       *smile*                sorry!

However, I'd like to bring back to my life some of the joy of having read Homer in the original in the 1950's ....

                I'm having great difficulty with Homer's hexameter...      although a long time ago I thought I had it "under control."

                     So I've been going on the internet to find some sites for practise and am having difficulty finding a site that is "clear" enough and "slow" enough to be helpful to me ...

             So do you know of any sites like this one that are a bit "clearer" and "slower" until I possibly regain some of my obviously lost skills ???

                                   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kSDO9FnWFWA

 

Philippians 4:  4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........

Posts 466
Butters | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 1 2013 5:58 PM

Hello Milford!  Smile

So glad to find a fellow lover of Ancient Greek!  

Well, the best way to explore this is to start with Professor Stephen Daitz, Professor Emeritus of Classical Languages, City University of New York.  

You are probably going to find that the Ancient Greek pronunciation is a bit different - a lot has changed scholarship wise in the intervening years.  I know Oxford Dons who won't have anything to do with the "restored" pronunciation.  However, he does go into some of the basic reasons for why the "restored" makes sense.  

If I were you, I'd start with The Pronunciation and Reading of Ancient Greek.  It's not too expensive - I'd upload it but I hate to cheat them of what is probably badly needed $.  What he has done is really a service to scholarship and humanity.  

So, here's where you go for the downloads:  http://ipodius.bolchazy.com/Audio/LivingVoice.html.  There are also CD versions of his recordings, but I figure peeps would probably prefer mp3 downloads.  

Anyway, in the above short course he brings you through the "restored" pronunciation and then step by step getting into the hexameter:  pitch accents, the syllabic meter, the various phonemic distinctions he'll teach you to make.  

And you'll be reciting Ancient Greek AGAIN in no time!

So happy to be of service to you sir.  Smile  And hope we can share this love of this magnificent language and the works it encompasses.  

Cheers, 

~Whiffles

As  

“To love means loving the unlovable.  To forgive means pardoning the unpardonable.  Faith means believing the unbelievable.  Hope means hoping when everything seems hopeless.” ~Chesterton

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Milford Charles Murray | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 1 2013 6:11 PM

Peace!           Incredibly great!           I'll write more later, probably tomorrow!        Thanks very kindly!            *smile*

Philippians 4:  4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 1 2013 6:26 PM

Milford Charles Murray:

Peace!           Incredibly great!           I'll write more later, probably tomorrow!        Thanks very kindly!            *smile*

This reminds me of a scene from the opera Amahl and the Night Visitors (the three kings).

A Chorus of Shepherds, Villagers and Dancers arrive with baskets of fruits and vegetables for the Kings, “Olives and quinces, apples and raisins, nutmeg and myrtle, medlars and chestnuts, this is all we shepherds can offer you.” The grateful Kings sing their appreciation, “Thank you, thank you, thank you kindly.”

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 466
Butters | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 2 2013 4:03 AM

George Somsel:

Milford Charles Murray:

Peace!           Incredibly great!           I'll write more later, probably tomorrow!        Thanks very kindly!            *smile*

This reminds me of a scene from the opera Amahl and the Night Visitors (the three kings).

A Chorus of Shepherds, Villagers and Dancers arrive with baskets of fruits and vegetables for the Kings, “Olives and quinces, apples and raisins, nutmeg and myrtle, medlars and chestnuts, this is all we shepherds can offer you.” The grateful Kings sing their appreciation, “Thank you, thank you, thank you kindly.”

This thread should be named:  all things classical studies; and opera too.  And maybe a bit of Bach thrown in.  

“To love means loving the unlovable.  To forgive means pardoning the unpardonable.  Faith means believing the unbelievable.  Hope means hoping when everything seems hopeless.” ~Chesterton

Posts 4625
RIP
Milford Charles Murray | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 2 2013 5:08 AM

*smile*                      Peace!               From Jesus !    The Prince of Peace!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPeVIuRjUi4

Philippians 4:  4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........

Posts 466
Butters | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Aug 6 2013 9:25 AM

Did anyone get a chance to pick up some of the Daitz resources?  They are really well done.  Smile

“To love means loving the unlovable.  To forgive means pardoning the unpardonable.  Faith means believing the unbelievable.  Hope means hoping when everything seems hopeless.” ~Chesterton

Posts 466
Butters | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Aug 6 2013 9:27 AM

Milford Charles Murray:

*smile*                      Peace!               From Jesus !    The Prince of Peace!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPeVIuRjUi4

How one can listen to Bach and manage to remain an atheist is completely beyond me.  Drinks

“To love means loving the unlovable.  To forgive means pardoning the unpardonable.  Faith means believing the unbelievable.  Hope means hoping when everything seems hopeless.” ~Chesterton

Posts 4625
RIP
Milford Charles Murray | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Aug 6 2013 2:05 PM

Butters:

Did anyone get a chance to pick up some of the Daitz resources?  They are really well done.  Smile

Not yet; however, that will most certainly happen -- as soon as I'm able to budget for some of the Iliad material!    *smile*             I'm tremendously grateful for the information!

                 It will happen, probably around the middle of September as I project my needs over against my desires over against my capabilities!    *smile*

of course ..........      !!!!     Deo Volente!      *smile*             God, Being Willing!   

FYI (to those desiring to possibly learn an important Christian Latin phrase)    (From Wikipedia ...)

Deo volente God willing This was often used in conjunction with a signature at the end of letters. It was used in order to signify that "God willing" this letter will get to you safely, "God willing" the contents of this letter come true. As an abbreviation (simply "D.V.") it is often found in personal letters (in English) of the early 1900s, employed to generally and piously qualify a given statement about a future planned action, that it will be carried out, so long as God wills. The motto of Southern Illinois University-Carbondale. See also: Insha'Allah.

Philippians 4:  4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Aug 6 2013 2:28 PM

Milford Charles Murray:

Deo volente God willing

13 Come now, you who say, "Today or tomorrow we will go to such and such a town and spend a year there, doing business and making money." 14 Yet you do not even know what tomorrow will bring. What is your life? For you are a mist that appears for a little while and then vanishes. 15 Instead you ought to say, "If the Lord wishes, we will live and do this or that." 16 As it is, you boast in your arrogance; all such boasting is evil. 17 Anyone, then, who knows the right thing to do and fails to do it, commits sin.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 466
Butters | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 7 2013 11:53 AM

Butters:
Mike Grigoni:
although I believe both were a case in which not all of the volumes are in the public domain.

Hi Mike, any answer on this?  

I believe they are; I'll repost this in case it got lost:  

Butters wrote this.... Smile 

Okay, so as far as Plato and Aristotle and public Domain:  

First, allow me to introduce to you a wonderful resource:  http://www.edonnelly.com/google.html

And within this resource, most conveniently, we find the old Loebs listed here:  http://www.edonnelly.com/loebs.html

If we look at, say, The Republic, we find this:  http://archive.org/details/republicshorey01platuoft

As far as I know, all of the old Loebs have been replaced - most of mine (and I have many, many Loebs) all date from the 1990s, I believe.  I have an old catalog of Loeb publications; the catalog is dated 1979, and most of the volumes in the catalog predate WWI, and certainly WWII.  

So I should think that pretty much every Aristotle and Plato volume of the early Loebs are now in the PD.  

~Butters Smile

“To love means loving the unlovable.  To forgive means pardoning the unpardonable.  Faith means believing the unbelievable.  Hope means hoping when everything seems hopeless.” ~Chesterton

Posts 466
Butters | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 10 2013 11:14 AM

I hope peeps don't mind terribly if I "bump" this here little pet thread of mine.  

~Butters Smile

“To love means loving the unlovable.  To forgive means pardoning the unpardonable.  Faith means believing the unbelievable.  Hope means hoping when everything seems hopeless.” ~Chesterton

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 10 2013 11:26 AM

Butters:

I hope peeps don't mind terribly if I "bump" this here little pet thread of mine.  

~Butters Smile

but the poor man had nothing but one little ewe lamb, which he had bought. He brought it up, and it grew up with him and with his children; it used to eat of his meager fare, and drink from his cup, and lie in his bosom, and it was like a daughter to him.

2 Sam 12.3

Wink

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 308
Dean J | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 10 2013 11:47 AM

Butters:

Did anyone get a chance to pick up some of the Daitz resources?  They are really well done.  Smile

What is restored pronunciation? I'm assuming it differs from Erasmian? I've heard of restored Koine (e.g. Randall Buth), but not for Homer.

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