Which one of these Collections Rules is Better?

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Donovan R. Palmer | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 1 2013 1:58 AM

Mark Barnes:
First, Second, and Third John: Evangelical Exegetical Commentary

It is a bit off topic, but what do you think of EEC?  Do you like it and how would you rank it in your library?  

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Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 1 2013 3:01 AM

Donovan R. Palmer:
It is a bit off topic, but what do you think of EEC?  Do you like it and how would you rank it in your library?  

I haven't yet preached through a book that has an available EEC commentary, so I haven't used any of them exhaustively. For what it's worth, here's a screenshot of the first screen of commentaries on my prioritisation list. (There's two more screenfulls below, so it's ranked much higher than midway). That said, whenever I look at this list I have an urge to tweak it, because it's never quite right...

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 1 2013 3:03 AM

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :):

"1, 2, & 3 John: Crossway Classic Commentaries" matches Subject:N.T. John while lacking content about the Gospel of John

"Horae Homileticae" (vol 13 & 14), "Synopsis of the Books of the Bible: Matthew to John", and "The Whole Works of the Rev. John Lightfoot" (vol 3, 4, & 5) do not have N.T. John in subject; yet these commentaries with John in the Title have content about the Gospel of John.

Commentaries: "The Life and Ministry of Jesus (Standard Reference Library New Testament, Vol. 1)" , "The Private Ministry of Christ" and "The Lectionary Commentary, Volume 3: The Gospels" also have Gospel of John content but subject and title do not have John. 

Mark Barnes:
It only misses three titles our of 115 in my library (two Horae Homiliticae, and Darby's Synopsis).

Mark Barnes:
I'm not sure it's good practice to modify rules to add specific titles who aren't added automatically.

Guys,

   consider adding an appropriate correction for Subject to http://wiki.logos.com/Metadata_correction_proposals (IMHO some of the titles should not be TYPE commentary!).

Dave
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Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 1 2013 3:11 AM

Dave Hooton:
consider adding an appropriate correction for Subject to http://wiki.logos.com/Metadata_correction_proposals

Will do.

Dave Hooton:
(IMHO some of the titles should not be TYPE commentary!).

"Logos’ use of these types is primarily functional rather than descriptive. The Commentary type is used for many different kinds of resources that are indexed by Bible verse and that the user may want to appear in the Passage Guide" : http://wiki.logos.com/Metadata_correction_proposals_%E2%80%93_Addressed_by_Logos

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 1 2013 3:22 AM

Mark Barnes:
The Commentary type is used for many different kinds of resources that are indexed by Bible verse and that the user may want to appear in the Passage Guide"

When some are "lessons" or "guides" and structured accordingly then I have contended with Logos that they should be TYPE "Bible Notes", which do appear in the Commentaries section of Passage Guide.

Dave
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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Aug 4 2013 7:46 PM

Mark Barnes:

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :):
Modified rule a bit to remove a false positive for Subject:N.T.John plus add nine more commentary resources:

I'm not sure it's good practice to modify rules to add specific titles who aren't added automatically. These rule changes have a habit of coming back to bite you and in/excluding other titles inadvertently. I think we should use the "Plus these resources" and "Minus these resources" when we know our rule is correct but a few resources are wrongly in/excluded.

Point noted so modified rule with Title exceptions to minimize inadvertent surprises:

Type:Commentary AND (Subject:N.T.John OR (Title:"Horae Homileticae" AND Title:("Vol. 13", "Vol. 14")) OR (Title:"Rev. John Lightfoot" AND Title:("Vol. 3", "Vol. 4", "Vol. 5")) OR Title:("Lectionary Commentary, Volume 3", "Life and Ministry of Jesus","Private Ministry of Christ")) -Title:"1, 2, & 3 John"

After metadata is updated, rule can be shortened.  Concur with Dave that rule should be:

Type:Commentary Subject:N.T.John

Keep Smiling Smile

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 8 2013 4:25 AM

For Canonical commentary collection rules, using subject(s) reduced number of false positives from title matches.

Updated wiki => http://wiki.logos.com/Canonical_Commentary_Collections and => http://wiki.logos.com/Example_Collections with shorter rule for 64 John:

Type:Commentary AND (Subject:N.T.John OR Title:(“Horae Homileticae Vol. 13”,”Horae Homileticae Vol. 14”,”Life and Ministry of Jesus”,”Private Ministry of Christ”)) -Title:”1, 2, & 3 John”

Rule for Old and New Testament commentaries now includes Lectionary Commentary and Whole Works of the Rev. John Lightfoot:

Type:(“Bible Notes”,Commentary) AND (Author:(Gillis,Keil,Pechawer) OR Subject:(“Bible—Commentaries”,”Bible—Handbooks”,”Bible—Study and teaching”,”Lectionary Preaching”,”Prayer.”) OR (Subject:Bible AND Subject:(“King James”,”N.T. —Commentaries”,”O.T. —Commentaries”,”O.T.—Historical”,”O.T.—History”,Outline,Quotation,Reference,”Relation to”)) OR Title:(Olshausen,”Whole Works of the Rev. John Lightfoot”)) -Title:(”Daily Study Bible Series”,”Letters from John”,”Preacher’s Commentary Series”,”Thru the Bible”,”Triple Tradition of the Exodus”)

Keep Smiling Smile

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David Bailey | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 8 2013 7:18 AM

Dave Hooton:

Todd Phillips:

Mark's rule excludes works that have "1 John" in the subject field, which makes the rule insufficient for works that cover both the Gospel and the Letter(s) of John.

I modified the rule to handle that situation:

type:commentary AND (subject:"N.T. John"....

Assuming Logos tagging is accurate then

type:commentary subject:N.T.John 

will work. It gets all 15 in my library at least!

I like the simple rule above much better than what I currently have. Using the simpler rule, I modified it with this:

(type:commentary,monograph); (subject:"n.t. john")

This rule captures the same resources that my complex rule does, except one. I can easily add the missing resource to my collection.  The simple rule, however, does not capture the 1 and 2 volume bible commentaries that may exist in one's library; and it the unmodified rule does not capture monographs that discuss some aspect of John's gospel.

(I also wonder why we can't open more than one instance of the Collection tool? I can use the Library to display another collection, but I'd prefer using the Collection tool so that I can make "what if" changes to the rules)

David

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 8 2013 8:35 PM

David Bailey:
(type:commentary,monograph); (subject:"n.t. john")

Found rule:

(type:commentary,monograph); (subject:"n.t. john")

matches the same resources as:

type:(commentary,monograph) subject:N.T.John

David Bailey:
(I also wonder why we can't open more than one instance of the Collection tool? I can use the Library to display another collection, but I'd prefer using the Collection tool so that I can make "what if" changes to the rules)

If rule is short enough, can use library to show list of resource(s) matching rule.  Personally dreaming of wider library filter box; found writing rule in Notepad, then copy and paste into Library box worked better than typing in smallish Library box.

Keep Smiling Smile

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Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 8 2013 9:21 PM

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :):

Found rule:

(type:commentary,monograph); (subject:"n.t. john")

matches the same resources as:

type:(commentary,monograph) subject:N.T.John

Didn't know you could omit quotation marks around library filters when there are non alphanumeric characters in them (i.e., punctuation). That surprises me. I would have thought that latter construct would match anything with "N" in the subject. But then it would have to also have T and John somewhere in the metadata, so it might end up giving you the same results.

However I did an experiment in my Library.

subject:N T John gives 589 results (including many that don't have "N.T.John" in the subject)

but subject:N.T.John gives 142 results

So clearly the latter is different (and does what you expected it to).

Whaddya know! You learn something new every day.

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 9 2013 12:57 AM

Rosie Perera:
Didn't know you could omit quotation marks around library filters when there are non alphanumeric characters in them (i.e., punctuation).

Yup. Quotes are only needed for spaces in the name/value.

Dave
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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 9 2013 1:25 AM

David Bailey:
The simple rule, however, does not capture the 1 and 2 volume bible commentaries that may exist in one's library;

For single volume commentaries try

type:commentary  subject:bible-commentaries

For single volume NT commentaries, try

type:commentary  subject:N.T.commentaries

(it should include the NT volume of the two-volume EBC - which should delineate its bible books)

For both together:

type:commentary  subject:(N.T.commentaries, bible-commentaries)

Dave
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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 9 2013 7:41 AM

Dave Hooton:

For single volume commentaries try

type:commentary  subject:bible-commentaries

There are some single volume bible commentaries that fall outside this subject  e.g. bible-handbooks, bible-outlines, bible-antiquities, bible-introductions, bible-criticism but I don't rate any of these as commentaries because they fit the description! Logos don't agree with me, so they are falling down on their standards for commentary metadata as they also apply those subjects to non-commentary types like monographs, and bible notes.

Dave Hooton:

For single volume NT commentaries, try

type:commentary  subject:N.T.commentaries

Likewise, some N.T. single volume bible commentaries fall outside this subject e.g. N.T.Criticism, N.T.English and the same applies to O.T. single volume commentaries e.g. O.T.Historical.

Exceptions can easily be catered for in each of the above cases, and I will submit a generic case for Logos to fix their metadata.

Dave
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David Bailey | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 9 2013 9:57 AM

Based on the feedback in this thread, I've modified my collection rule for the Gospel of John.  Use this rule if you want to find all commentaries and monographs that pertain to or discuss John's Gospel.  In my case, so far, there were two false positives, which can be easily removed: 1) doctrinal discussions in Calvin: Commentaries and 2) Carson's New Testament Commentary Survey.

Collection Rule:

(type:commentary,monograph; subject:n.t.john, subject:bible--commentaries,n.t.commentaries)-(series:"preacher's commentary","word biblical")

If you don't want monographs, just remove it from the rule above.

David

Edit: Because of the series, you will need to add back these two resources (if you have them in your library): WBC volume 36 and Preacher's Commentary volume 27

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 9 2013 3:28 PM

David Bailey:

Collection Rule:

(type:commentary,monograph; subject:n.t.john, subject:bible--commentaries,n.t.commentaries)-(series:"preacher's commentary","word biblical")

A more compact/correct expression is:-

type:(commentary, monograph)  subject:(n.t.john, bible--commentaries, n.t.commentaries) -series:("preacher's commentary","word biblical")

Dave
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fgh | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Aug 12 2013 8:30 AM

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :):
Personally dreaming of wider library filter box

SUGGESTION: Wider Library find box

"The Christian way of life isn't so much an assignment to be performed, as a gift to be received."  Wilfrid Stinissen

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NB.Mick | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Aug 12 2013 9:05 AM

Dave Hooton:

Dave Hooton:

For single volume commentaries try

type:commentary  subject:bible-commentaries

There are some single volume bible commentaries that fall outside this subject  e.g. bible-handbooks, bible-outlines, bible-antiquities, bible-introductions, bible-criticism but I don't rate any of these as commentaries because they fit the description! Logos don't agree with me, so they are falling down on their standards for commentary metadata as they also apply those subjects to non-commentary types like monographs, and bible notes.

Dave Hooton:

For single volume NT commentaries, try

type:commentary  subject:N.T.commentaries

Likewise, some N.T. single volume bible commentaries fall outside this subject e.g. N.T.Criticism, N.T.English and the same applies to O.T. single volume commentaries e.g. O.T.Historical.

Exceptions can easily be catered for in each of the above cases, and I will submit a generic case for Logos to fix their metadata.

Dave,

maybe I'm wrong, but I seem to remember that someone from Logos stated that these subjects are the "official" ones that the publishers provided to the national library catalog (or whatever it's called) and can't / won't be changed since they are the ones printed in paper books and under which the respective books are filed in every library. Or so. So, basically, unless Logos made an error by inputting them different to the publisher's original, they won't change them. I hope for a better outcome, though.

Aside: This again may touch the philosophical discussion whether Logos resources are "facsimile-like" representation of printed books including all their errors (even though these errors become a much different quality in a research software) or functional representions. Never mind.  

Mick

 

Running Logos 9 latest (beta) version on Win 10

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fgh | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Aug 12 2013 11:51 AM

NB.Mick:
maybe I'm wrong, but I seem to remember that someone from Logos stated that these subjects are the "official" ones that the publishers provided to the national library catalog (or whatever it's called) and can't / won't be changed

That used to be the case, but as you can see at http://community.logos.com/forums/p/73354/511749.aspx#511749, they seem to have abandoned that approach in favour of consistency.

"The Christian way of life isn't so much an assignment to be performed, as a gift to be received."  Wilfrid Stinissen

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Aug 12 2013 3:28 PM

NB.Mick:
maybe I'm wrong, but I seem to remember that someone from Logos stated that these subjects are the "official" ones that the publishers provided to the national library catalog (or whatever it's called) and can't / won't be changed since they are the ones printed in paper books and under which the respective books are filed in every library.

As Logos insist that they are commentaries (type:"Bible Commentary") then they need to be discovered as such via their Subject! They can keep the current designation when making the changes, but it is more applicable to monographs.

Dave
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