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Posts 670
Sleiman | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 6 2014 10:23 AM

fgh:
Otherwise, my personal concern is trying to guess whether this collection will turn up in 'Verbum 6 Portfolio' for about $250 in a year or two. I'm tired of financing prepubs that others can then buy for a fraction of the price I paid. 
Yup, my thoughts exactly. Perhaps if it doesn't make it to a base package in a year or two, then it would be offered at a hefty discount with a base package (close to it's pre-pub price? I don't know). Decisions decisions!

Posts 5356
SineNomine | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 6 2014 7:40 PM

fgh:

Logos: I'm glad it's ready to ship -- but two weeks' notice for a $1,559.95 resource? Really? I doubt I'm the only one who finds that very inconsiderate to your customers, and I suspect it will also be rather detrimental for your bottom line. I imagine you will get quite a few cancellations and lose quite a few last minute orders. Lots of people can't come up with that kind of money in two weeks, least of all just before the summer vacations. "Sorry kids, I just cancelled our trip to Xyz in order to buy these books instead" doesn't go down very well in most families... And to add to that you also pretty much drowned us in prepubs and new packages during April and May, presumably emptying more than one wallet and bank account.

I'm lucky in that I don't live from month to month, so for me personally it doesn't much matter when something ships or when I'm notified -- as long as I  don't find my account suddenly emptied while I'm traveling. But most people aren't in my position, so the more expensive a prepub is, the longer the advance warning needs to be, even if it's just a 'Q2'. For your own sake as well as ours. Suggestion now that it is what it is: allow people to save this prepub for 6 months. I think you'll sell more that way. I doubt many people will order it for the full price.

I seem to be a rare forumer who would almost never order a pre-pub I didn't have the money to pay for.

fgh:
Otherwise, my personal concern is trying to guess whether this collection will turn up in 'Verbum 6 Portfolio' for about $250 in a year or two. I'm tired of financing prepubs that others can then buy for a fraction of the price I paid. 

This is where you get mad at me for hoping that it turns up in a Verbum 6 package, right? Sorry!

Posts 19253
Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 6 2014 8:03 PM

SineNomine:
I seem to be a rare forumer who would almost never order a pre-pub I didn't have the money to pay for.

That sounds like the way it should work.

I wouldn't write a check to someone that I know I won't have the balance to cover, even if they should wait six months before cashing it. I keep a note in my check register that this check is outstanding, so that I don't spend my balance down below an amount that should cover it should that check suddenly get deposited. As far as I'm concerned, once I write the check, it's out of my possession, so my running balance gets reduced accordingly even if the bank says I still have that money around.

Similarly, when I order a pre-pub, I have no idea how long it's going to take Logos to "cash" my "check" but I'd better not spend that money on anything else in the meantime or my "check" might bounce. My Dad taught me all that common sense about managing a checkbook when I was in high school. Keep the balance high enough to cover known expenses that are coming due in the future: car insurance, etc. That is, don't spend money you think you have if it's already designated for something else.

All this talk about people canceling pre-pubs when they find they don't have the money to pay for them means people are ordering things they know they won't have the money for. I like Logos's new Book Cache. You can save up for pre-pubs in advance so they don't come as surprises when they ship. That enables you to get on board early on in the pre-pub cycle and get the lowest possible price even if you don't have the money saved up to pay for it quite yet. You can assume it will take a little while to get to 100% and be produced. But you really shouldn't assume it will take a long time. And you shouldn't be ordering other pre-pubs at the same time that might make it impossible for you to pay for the one biggie you're saving up for. Do the budgeting in advance, not in a panic when the pre-pubs all start shipping.

Granted, this one is an exceedingly expensive one compared to most pre-pubs, and I don't fault the people who were hoping to be able to save up for them in time but just didn't make it. That's a lot of $10/mo to stash away if that's all you can spare. But in general, the principle should be don't order it if you don't think you're going to be able to pay for it.

Posts 5356
SineNomine | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 7 2014 5:51 AM

Rosie Perera:
You can assume it will take a little while to get to 100% and be produced. But you really shouldn't assume it will take a long time.

Right. My philosophy for Community Pricing books is pretty much the same, with perhaps a bit more liberality in terms of time for things like the Patrologia Latina, which (and because it) probably won't hit 100% any time soon (and which I nonetheless haven't ordered yet).

Posts 8899
fgh | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jun 8 2014 9:50 AM

SineNomine:
This is where you get mad at me for hoping that it turns up in a Verbum 6 package, right?

Wrong. I'll be happy to see it in a package. I just wish I knew about it now, so that I could cancel without regret and get the same sweet deal.

Rosie Perera:
I wouldn't write a check to someone that I know I won't have the balance to cover

No one should, but that's not quite the same thing. A check is binding, it will almost certainly be cashed within a week or two, and there is virtually no chance that it never gets cashed at all. (I admit I no longer keep a balance for the uncashed check I wrote to Apple around 2001. I've even removed the reservation in my bookkeeping.)

But a CP bid or preorder isn't binding, and there is no way of knowing when it turns up. Most people don't have the funds to keep hundreds of dollars reserved for the Patrologias and the translation of Aquinas commentary on the Sentences, which aren't likely to ship in the next 5 years, if they ever ship at all. They need that money for things shipping now. So their alternative would be not to bid at all until things are about to close -- and we don't want that, because then resources like the above will never close.

I'm a big fan of saving in advance, I'll never understand why so many people are willing to waste good money on payment plan fees, and if prepub shippings were reasonably predictable I'd probably say the same as you, but the way it works now it's simply not realistic to expect that people will pass on good deals now in order to keep the money ready for something that may not even ship this year. And your claim that

Rosie Perera:
this (...) means people are ordering things they know they won't have the money for

doesn't follow from the premises. Someone may have $600 a year for books, preorder for $400 in January, and still not make it, because Logos suddenly ships $200 in February and $200 in March, and they get their money as $50 a month.

So I maintain that the more expensive a resource is, the longer advance warning Logos ought to give, even if it's just a 'Q2'.

"The Christian way of life isn't so much an assignment to be performed, as a gift to be received."  Wilfrid Stinissen

Mac Pro OS 10.9.

Posts 19253
Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jun 8 2014 12:02 PM

fgh:

Rosie Perera:
this (...) means people are ordering things they know they won't have the money for

doesn't follow from the premises. Someone may have $600 a year for books, preorder for $400 in January, and still not make it, because Logos suddenly ships $200 in February and $200 in March, and they get their money as $50 a month.

Good points.

fgh:

So I maintain that the more expensive a resource is, the longer advance warning Logos ought to give, even if it's just a 'Q2'.

Agreed. That seems reasonable. I don't remember when they first showed a ship date on this one. Did it just suddenly appear? Or did they have a vague estimate for a while and then an exact date? I haven't been following my pre-pubs closely enough.

Posts 8899
fgh | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jun 8 2014 12:24 PM

Rosie Perera:
I don't remember when they first showed a ship date on this one.

This Friday, two weeks before shipping. No hint whatsoever before that.

"The Christian way of life isn't so much an assignment to be performed, as a gift to be received."  Wilfrid Stinissen

Mac Pro OS 10.9.

Posts 19253
Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jun 8 2014 12:32 PM

fgh:

Rosie Perera:
I don't remember when they first showed a ship date on this one.

This Friday, two weeks before shipping. No hint whatsoever before that.

Indeed, that is too short notice for something of this magnitude. I think they should put it off for a while, even if it's ready to go, so that people don't have to cancel it. There are payment plans, but I don't like the concept personally. And I'm not sure if they ever got around to letting people put pre-pubs on payment plans. I know that was an issue in the past and they were going to address it, but am not sure if they have yet.

Posts 8899
fgh | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jun 8 2014 12:59 PM

Rosie Perera:
I think they should put it off for a while, even if it's ready to go

I think they should do what I suggested earlier: allow people to save it for 6 months.

"The Christian way of life isn't so much an assignment to be performed, as a gift to be received."  Wilfrid Stinissen

Mac Pro OS 10.9.

Posts 5356
SineNomine | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jun 8 2014 1:52 PM

fgh:

SineNomine:
This is where you get mad at me for hoping that it turns up in a Verbum 6 package, right?

Wrong. I'll be happy to see it in a package. I just wish I knew about it now, so that I could cancel without regret and get the same sweet deal.

Lack of cash frequently simplifies my shopping. Silver linings everywhere, I suppose.

fgh:
I'll never understand why so many people are willing to waste good money on payment plan fees

For me, that would be a last-ditch desperation move.

fgh:
Most people don't have the funds to keep hundreds of dollars reserved for the Patrologias and the translation of Aquinas commentary on the Sentences, which aren't likely to ship in the next 5 years, if they ever ship at all.

Verbum Capstone 7.

fgh:
Someone may have $600 a year for books, preorder for $400 in January, and still not make it, because Logos suddenly ships $200 in February and $200 in March, and they get their money as $50 a month.

That could be a problem, yes.

fgh:
So I maintain that the more expensive a resource is, the longer advance warning Logos ought to give, even if it's just a 'Q2'.

That would be ideal. But we know about Logos's non-promising policy and why it's in place.

Posts 2589
Lee | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jun 8 2014 2:11 PM

This is a monumental work, and pretty much compulsory for those who are into patristics.

It would be a great pity if buyers miss out because of the sudden release.

Posts 8899
fgh | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jun 8 2014 3:08 PM

SineNomine:
Lack of cash frequently simplifies my shopping.

If I keep buying expensive prepubs instead of cheap packages it will soon simplify mine as well...

SineNomine:

fgh:
I'll never understand why so many people are willing to waste good money on payment plan fees

For me, that would be a last-ditch desperation move.

I can understand it if you simply have to have something for class. Or if the discount is so deep and so unique that the fee is peanuts in comparison with what you save, like with the 2010 Christmas Bundle (2000 books, 2000 dollars). Or if you know you have money coming in a month or two and can pay it all off then. But generally I can't understand it at all. $60 a year is $300 in five years. You can buy a lot of books for $300.

SineNomine:
That would be ideal. But we know about Logos's non-promising policy and why it's in place.

They rarely give as short notice as two weeks. They shouldn't use their shortest notice for their most expensive resources.

"The Christian way of life isn't so much an assignment to be performed, as a gift to be received."  Wilfrid Stinissen

Mac Pro OS 10.9.

Posts 5356
SineNomine | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jun 8 2014 5:14 PM

fgh:

SineNomine:
Lack of cash frequently simplifies my shopping.

If I keep buying expensive prepubs instead of cheap packages it will soon simplify mine as well...

At least you can afford the cheap packages.

fgh:

SineNomine:
That would be ideal. But we know about Logos's non-promising policy and why it's in place.

They rarely give as short notice as two weeks. They shouldn't use their shortest notice for their most expensive resources.

True. On the other hand, they want to push out as much as possible as soon as possible. And someone who does have the money sitting around would probably prefer the books in six weeks than in two months. Were I such a person, I certainly would.

Perhaps there is an alternative that would be as good for Logos as it would be for some its customers.

Posts 8899
fgh | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jun 9 2014 6:16 AM

SineNomine:
On the other hand, they want to push out as much as possible as soon as possible.

They don't produce 127 vols. in two weeks. They've known a long time that this was in the works. They just didn't inform us.

"The Christian way of life isn't so much an assignment to be performed, as a gift to be received."  Wilfrid Stinissen

Mac Pro OS 10.9.

Posts 32500
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jun 9 2014 12:02 PM

fgh:
They've known a long time that this was in the works.

What they didn't know was the quality of the files the publisher sent them - clearly these were sent in a form that processed easily (assuming they pass user QA).

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 1602
Deacon Steve | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jun 9 2014 12:22 PM

I'm a little bummed out ... I came to the conclusion last night that I am going to have to cancel my order.  I'm not ready financially.  And, unfortunately, the regular price is going to be too much.  I'm thinking it's unlikely it will be this low again, even with some future discount which is likely to be a ways off. 

Sad

I'm not sure what the specific value proposition is for these resources versus the other, older translations of various works.  ECF, summary works, other sets author specific.

Maybe someone could share their thinking.

Posts 8899
fgh | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jun 9 2014 12:33 PM

MJ. Smith:
What they didn't know was the quality of the files the publisher sent them

They can't start tagging until they already have the files, and I can't imagine that they tag 127 vols. in two weeks. Especially as these must require quite a few new datatypes (at least if they want to "pass user QA").

"The Christian way of life isn't so much an assignment to be performed, as a gift to be received."  Wilfrid Stinissen

Mac Pro OS 10.9.

Posts 11837
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NB.Mick | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jun 9 2014 12:39 PM

Steve:

I'm a little bummed out ... I came to the conclusion last night that I am going to have to cancel my order.  I'm not ready financially.  And, unfortunately, the regular price is going to be too much.  I'm thinking it's unlikely it will be this low again, even with some future discount which is likely to be a ways off. 

I'm not certain on the value proposition, as I'm not a professional user of Logos. But it may be that Logos can help you regarding the big chunk of dough. Check your mailbox or contact Mark dot Wheeler at Verbum dot com.

Running Logos 9 latest (beta) version on Win 10

Posts 670
Sleiman | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jun 9 2014 12:47 PM

Steve:
I'm a little bummed out ... I came to the conclusion last night that I am going to have to cancel my order.
Sorry about that Steve. You're not alone my friend, I'm in the same boat as you are; except I took the decision well before they announced the shipping date. I'm taking the [drastic] decision that I'm not going to participate in pre-orders again unless I want a resource really badly and there's little progress, then I'll chip in. Otherwise, I'll wait till it's included in one of those base packages. There's more chance than not that most of what I'd like to get are going to be included for much cheaper later. If not, then that's a risk I'm willing to take and my wallet will thank me.

fgh:
(at least if they want to "pass user QA").
Ahh, the user QA test: How did they do on similar tests before?

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jun 9 2014 1:04 PM

Sleiman:
fgh:
(at least if they want to "pass user QA").
Ahh, the user QA test: How did they do on similar tests before?

I was being facetious based upon the number of problems found in the first two weeks after delivery of some recent releases. There's been a release or two I'd call an alpha release ... not quite up to beta standards.Smile

fgh:
these must require quite a few new datatypes

I would hope that Logos had the foresight to make preparations for "the complete" church fathers i.e. Migne prior to the Orthodox/Catholic push on patristic resources. Note I said "hope".

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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