I'm sorry to say it, but extremely disappointed in Logos software

Page 3 of 3 (55 items) < Previous 1 2 3
This post has 54 Replies | 3 Followers

Posts 10426
Forum MVP
Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 5 2013 11:15 AM

Scott E. Mahle:

Jack Caviness:

Will now look for that thread.

KS4J has included it in his reply . . .

Thank you. It is indeed difficult to find when you have identified to incorrect Logos employee. I said, David Mitchell, then thought maybe it was Marvin Potter. Now I learn that it was Tom Philpott Many thanks Scott for the correction.

Hope 5.2a will fix Bryan's—and many other Mac users'—freeze problems.

Posts 2457
Lee | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 5 2013 11:30 AM

Mono-related problems are bound to be frequent and hard to troubleshoot. Par for the course for freeware and complicated porting libraries.

If users isolate patterns (usage, etc.) and work with Logos, hopefully major bugs will go away.

The Mac side of things is looking better and better. More incentive (not yet total no-brainer) for folks to go "native" now.

Posts 70
Erik DiVietro | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 5 2013 11:54 AM

bryan jay:

I should add also, that sometimes Logos just hangs up when I go to close it.  The computer hasn't been in sleep and there is no apparent action that I do that causes it.  I just notice that many times when I go to shut down my computer, either Logos won't close, or if I just hit "shut down" with a bunch of apps open, the computer will tell me that Logos cancelled shut down.

Logos 4/5 has always hung up when you try to shut down the Mac. It has something to do with the way Macs write information for shut down. I don't pretend to understand it; but it is just the way it is. I always manually shut down Logos before turning my 2009 MBP (8GB RAM, 250 GB SSD) off. I also no longer use sleep because with the SSD, the MBP boots up in less than 20 seconds.

I am certainly no stranger to complaining about Logos 5, and I can empathize with you, Bryan, but I have not encountered anything near the level of frustration you seem to be having.

Allow me to make 2 suggestions:

  1. Manually close Logos 5 when you are shutting down your MBA by pressing Cmd+Q and allow it to completely sync and shut down.
  2. Apply some of these tips (http://blog.alutam.com/2012/04/01/optimizing-macos-x-lion-for-ssd/) for your MBA. Since it uses a SSD, you do not need to have all of the sleep options on. Of particular interest might be turning off Hibernation Mode.
Posts 15805
Forum MVP
Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 5 2013 12:18 PM

bryan jay:
I've also noticed it hanging it up when installing new updates, although not every time.

Posted a thread => Bug - Logos 5.2 SR3 Indexer abruptly crashing with recent 5.2 SR3 crashes on Windows 7.  In July 2013, experienced some 5.1 SR 1 Indexer crashes on OS X 10.8.5 so share Sad about Logos indexing reliability (at times).  Thankfully can restart indexing while wishing restart was not needed.

bryan jay:
Yes, I like to leave Logos open (so I don't have to wait for it to load each time I need it) when I leave the computer or close the lid.  And yes, it is often then that Logos hangs.  

Tom Philpot replied on 29 Nov 2013 => http://community.logos.com/forums/p/78218/547017.aspx#547017

Tom Philpot (Logos):

Thanks to your persistence (and all the other Mac users who report bugs and post logs), I think we have a fix for this crash on quit. It seems there was a bug in Mono that we were finally able to track down earlier this week.

 

It seems this bug was a race condition that could occur when Logos was running when waking from sleep. There was about a 10 second window when waking from sleep in which Mono could think that some internal book-keeping data was no longer necessary and throw it out. When this occurred, the program might crash while running, but more often than not it resulted in a crash on quit.

 

This might also explain why people who quit Logos Mac before putting their Mac to sleep had a more stable experience, as this bug appears to only occur when waking from sleep.

 

We have a fix that should resolve the issue in the first 5.2a beta. We'll monitor the crash reports for the 5.2a beta when it ships and see if the number of reports for this issue decreases in 5.2a. If we determine that the change is effective, we'll push this change back to the stable releases as well.

Keep Smiling Smile

Posts 1493
Josh | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 5 2013 1:47 PM

I currently run L5 on two machines. One is a 2009 iMac running Snow Leopard (OSX 10.6) and the other is a 2012 Macbook Pro running Mountain Lion (OSX 10.8). Both are the most basic stock models.

I find it odd that some Mac users have major issues and some don't. The only problem I have with L5 is a problem that the Windows side has too - the constant updates and indexing! Everything else is fine.

If we are using the SAME machines and the SAME software - why is there such a wide performance gap between Mac users? So strange.

Posts 2457
Lee | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 5 2013 5:06 PM

Josh:

If we are using the SAME machines and the SAME software - why is there such a wide performance gap between Mac users? So strange.

Answer: maybe you're NOT running the same software, e.g. some system setting like system locale, some other piece of software that's been installed or not installed, some update that's been applied or not applied, some software that's also running at the same time or not running.

Maybe you're NOT running the same hardware, e.g. RAM, HD (which firmware build?), CPU. Or it could be one of those file permissions issues that crop up for no particular reason. Or, PRAM. Or, some particular usage pattern that exposes a latent problem ...

Of course, the problem may not actually reside with Logos code per se ("this is a Mono bug"...) but the fact that users running Logos encounter problems makes it in everybody's (=Logos and users) interests to track down what is causing them. Smile

Posts 10426
Forum MVP
Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 6 2013 3:49 AM

Lee:
the fact that users running Logos encounter problems makes it in everybody's (=Logos and users) interests to track down what is causing them.

Agreed, that is why we need detailed explanations—and especially logs—when problems occur

Posts 851
Michael McLane | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 6 2013 7:41 AM

I did not bother reading every reply as they seem to be mostly about the Mac functionality. Therefore, I would like to respond to the original post and add my two cents on functionality in general.

I would like to see Logos live up to its basic functionality that it lets us know about on nearly every resource page; namely that every resource is linked. Logos, the one thing that your software should be doing, and doing well, is either none existent, poorly implemented, or thoroughly inconsistent in its implementation both within a single resource and across resources.

Here are a couple of current threads on the topic:

http://community.logos.com/forums/t/78548.aspx

http://community.logos.com/forums/t/73301.aspx

I could go on with screen shots and further explanation, but that has all been done before. The point is that the most basic functionality of the software has deteriorated over time. Please hear me, I do not wish to be overly harsh. I have been a long time Logos user and run an installation on all platforms. I have tens of thousands of dollars invested in this software. I want to love Logos, but they make it so hard when every time I click a link and one of the inconsistent results is a bib reference to copy that does me no good. Then, I have to go to my library and manually look it up. Really? I have to manually look up a reference to BDAG from a Pillar commentary, two of the most common resources? I am actually embarrassed for Logos.

Like the OP, I cannot recommend Logos. I cannot use it in group Bible study, because it is inconsistent in its workings, I never know what it will do and how many hoops I will have to jump through. I don't even tell people I own Logos. I am sorry, that is bad. Just make the links work, and work consistently. I have actually started moving to buy my resources on Kindle, at least they are cheaper there for what is about the same functionality, an e-reader.

I apologize if I sound a bit frustrated, but a product should deliver on the most basic of its promises and I do not see Logos doing that.

Thanks for listening and I look forward to learning if I am just doing something wrong.

Posts 8811
Forum MVP
Bruce Dunning | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 6 2013 9:08 AM

Michael Paul:

I would like to see Logos live up to its basic functionality that it lets us know about on nearly every resource page; namely that every resource is linked. Logos, the one thing that your software should be doing, and doing well, is either none existent, poorly implemented, or thoroughly inconsistent in its implementation both within a single resource and across resources.

Here are a couple of current threads on the topic:

http://community.logos.com/forums/t/78548.aspx

Regarding the above thread, Kyle Anderson from Logos gave what I thought was a very good response on page 2.

Using adventure and community to challenge young people to continually say "yes" to God

Posts 2457
Lee | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 6 2013 9:51 AM

Jack Caviness:

Lee:
the fact that users running Logos encounter problems makes it in everybody's (=Logos and users) interests to track down what is causing them.

Agreed, that is why we need detailed explanations—and especially logs—when problems occur

For the known, intractable problems, Logos and users need to be in direct contact. Logs are almost certainly not going to capture sufficient info to isolate the causes.

Posts 757
Fr. Charles R. Matheny | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 6 2013 10:29 AM

One of the recent arguments revolves around: "Not all Mac installs are the same".

This is, of course true.

However, that argument is a pretty poor argument, Mac, Windows etc.

Why?

Because it should not happen anyway.

Most people, companies,businesses would not use a software that crashed frequently and, gave inconsistent results, Especially if said software company blamed it on their usage of other normal, mainstream software installs.

On the Mac side of things, most if us use extremely stable software, not junk, not unstable, but very high quality and very stable software. Macs own software bundles, MS Office , mainstream browsers etc. All stable software.

Mac users ( and modern day Windows) owners just are not used to crashes, failures, freezes.

As a "for instance" , the ONLY software on my Mac that ever crashes, is Logos. It's the only software that uses over 100% of my processors from time to time, it's the only software that is extremely slow to load etc, etc.

If Logos knows that are "software conflicts" with other software and thus, install paths, sharing GPU etc, then we should be notified of this, both Logos and the customer could try to make adjustments.

Installs: While it is true, that installs differ, it isn't true that this should be, or is, the underlying issue for most problems, at least on the Mac side.
Server side issue at Logos cause some of the issues, install issues on Logos side are some of the issues ( database issues) .
Another recurring issue IS code, it just is what it is.
Code issues that fix one thing, break another, code issues within one resource, that when used, crash the program, thus, if one person has that resource and another does not, then one will have the problem, one will not.

Posting Logs: This is great for getting help on the forums, yet, posting Logs here, does not mean Logos software engineers are going to get those logs.

I have spoken to Logos support by phone several times, screen share etc, and been told that yes, a problem is known, or, no, this is the first they have heard of it- in both examples, many people had same issue and many logs had been posted.

The bottom line is simply that we, the consumer, have no easy answers and, basing someone else's situation from our own experience can often be less than helpful. I cannot say all Logos experience is like mine, weather good or bad, nor that it should be like mine, good or bad and, the last thing we should do is make someone feel like the problem is because they have an inferior product, weather it be a Mac or Windows unit.

Logos just has issues, code issues, sever issues and, is very sensitive, very hard on ones computer resources.

When it works- it works, when it fails, it fails.

I had gone a couple of months with No crashes, then upgraded my Verbum Tuesday, nothing else on my Mac Changed- nothing. Logos/Verbum now crashes several times a session. Cant be my Mac, it was running fine before the upgrade and, all other systems and programs are normal.

I will call tech support, hopefully we will get it fixed again and all will be back to normal, which is slow and clunky-smile, but normal.

We just have to remember that Logos is "supposed" to work like our other software and, most of us go very long periods without crashes, major issues when it comes to Word processors, Browsers, banking software, printing software etc, etc.

People are dissappinted when Logos does not function as other stable software. Logos is not advertised as unstable, but as stable and best, not as beta or alpha etc.

When Logos gets to the type of stability that is "normal" on most platforms, we will see threads like these disappear, until then, frustration is going to be a regular conversation.

Just sayin.

Posts 3937
abondservant | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 6 2013 2:07 PM

I have had nothing but fantastic success with Logos (I have L2, L3, L4 and L5 packages).

L3 was my least favorite, or maybe I just didn't know how to appreciate it fully.

OP - how old is your computer? Logos software requires some horsepower to do what it does. Perhaps upgrading to an SSD, or to a new computer all together is in order in the near future? Or is it a new device?

Here is another perspective.

80-90% of the consumer computer market is comprised of PC's. I don't know about Logos priorities; but my priority would be on the PC side. Think also about the upcoming talent pool. IF 80-90% of all the talented programmers out there are programming for PC, then that leaves a much smaller pool for Logos to draw from; further subdivided by things like "is the programmer a believer" or "does he have an interest in software for bibliophiles".

In terms of actual usage I suspect that in the years to come Mac's will begin, or may have already overtaken PC's in Logos niche. At my seminary, a recent chapel speaker asked everyone to raise their hand if they were a PC - a handful of us did so. Moments later they asked for all the Mac users to raise their hand, and the vast majority did so. Only one hand raised for Linux. Chapel holds upwards of a thousand people.

I suspect that if my school is any type of indicator that Logos internal metrics are going to start swinging that direction as well. When I worked in IT (circa 2000-2009), I saw an ever increasing number of people using Mac's at the Bible school. I suspect its just a matter of time, and Logos will be needing to put more resources into the Mac side of things as that seems to be where "vogue" is headed for now.

L2 lvl4, L3 Scholars, L4 Scholars, L5 Platinum,  L6 Collectors. L7 Baptist Portfolio. L8 Baptist Platinum.

Posts 6122
DAL | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 6 2013 6:35 PM

I'm happy with Logos and its performance.  The only disappointment came when they removed major up-to-date commentaries from the base packages and replaced them with old out-dated ones (e.g. Pillar NT Commentary, NIGTC, BECNT, etc. for Lange's, Black's, Weslyan Tradition ones, etc.).  It's like Logos decided to "Down grade" the packages's content, instead of upgrading them.  Other than that, the software works fine for my personal needs (devotional, lesson prep, etc.).

DAL

Posts 2457
Lee | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 6 2013 6:42 PM

OP:

I have a brand new MacBook Air 1.8GHZ that should be plenty powerful to run Logos with no problem.  The software is sluggish and it crashes all the time.  I have followed the procedures on the support pages, but have seen no improvement.

abondservant:

OP - how old is your computer? Logos software requires some horsepower to do what it does. Perhaps upgrading to an SSD, or to a new computer all together is in order in the near future? Or is it a new device?

Well-intentioned, but not going to help locate the real issues. The entire thread already explores the old "SSD or (insert the hardware that 'works')" canard.

Fr. Charles R. Matheny:

I have spoken to Logos support by phone several times, screen share etc, and been told that yes, a problem is known, or, no, this is the first they have heard of it- in both examples, many people had same issue and many logs had been posted.

The bottom line is simply that we, the consumer, have no easy answers and, basing someone else's situation from our own experience can often be less than helpful. I cannot say all Logos experience is like mine, weather good or bad, nor that it should be like mine, good or bad and, the last thing we should do is make someone feel like the problem is because they have an inferior product, weather it be a Mac or Windows unit.

Logos just has issues, code issues, sever issues and, is very sensitive, very hard on ones computer resources.

When it works- it works, when it fails, it fails.

I had gone a couple of months with No crashes, then upgraded my Verbum Tuesday, nothing else on my Mac Changed- nothing. Logos/Verbum now crashes several times a session. Cant be my Mac, it was running fine before the upgrade and, all other systems and programs are normal.

Yes Yes Yes  If Logos wants to help the user base who are experiencing problems, troubleshooting and testing will have to done professionally, in co-operation with affected users.

Posts 757
Fr. Charles R. Matheny | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 6 2013 7:46 PM

Agreed Lee: I am all for us helping each other in many ways; Set-ups, prioritizing and, recommended lists, workflows etc and, minor fixes, tweaking etc.

There are many here that do these things really well, some that can read the logs and help with some things.

That said, it is my belief we need to refer people to Tech support more often, this may get them quicker help if it's a tough issue and, I tend to think Logos gets better input. 

That said: I sure do wish we had more interaction here and "how we use Logos". Screenshots of layouts, tips and tweaks, workflows, word studies, how to use things in conjunction with one another.

Usually it's just : Go read a wiki.

I wish there were more Mark Barnes Video's and those of others.

Many of us just cannot spend hundreds of dollars on training video's, we really need the "community aspect " for help. At times I think these are better anyway, for we hear things like: This is how I go about this and why, this is my workflow for this type of study, and I change to this, when doing research etc, etc.

Well, I'm far off target, but know this, when we can, we should do our part to "make sure" Logos has pulled crash reports and made case files so the programmers have good information for looking at problems.

I know for a fact, Logos can be better, smoother, faster and much more stable and, want to do my part in helping them achieve those goals, even if we have to spell those goals out for them-smile.

We help, we win, no down side to that.

Grace and Peace,

Page 3 of 3 (55 items) < Previous 1 2 3 | RSS