Jehovah's Witnesses Works

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George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 29 2014 3:59 PM

James Chandler:

Some of Ankerberg's books would be good.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XVSRm80WzZk

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 11433
DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 29 2014 4:09 PM

I think Shinto would be good.  I especially like the trees (true).

But the question is somewhat disappointing.  Since we're talking 'voting' on CP, maybe indeed there's millions of JW purchasers just waiting around.

But with SO MANY really basic-to-Christianity (regardless the theology) that sit in CP and PP, one has to wonder.

I do have to agree with Ben; the Mormon bookstore offers far better quality than the oldies on Logos.

"God will save his fallen angels and their broken wings He'll mend."

Posts 824
GregW | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 29 2014 4:13 PM

Phil Gons:

  1. Do you appreciate our offering broad religious content in Logos?
  2. Would you be interested in having JW content in Logos?
  3. Is there a different group we should focus on first?
  4. Which would you rather have first: content from a JW perspective or content that provides a critical assessment of that perspective?
  5. Any specific recommendations on content we should prioritize? (e.g., the works of Charles Taze Russell?)

1. Yes

2. No

3. Yes - Jewish materials

4. Neither

5. No

We need to bear in mind that those of us who have had the benefit of theological training, or who have developed our own theological awareness are accustomed to using our critical faculties. This is not true of everybody, and the presence of these materials in the Logos store would certainly affect the number of people I recommend Logos to. I know this should not be the case, and that we should be training people to use their critical faculties (I do), but those of us who are church leaders preach the ideal and live with the real. I would not be happy about these materials being introduced without clear indicators in the store that they are JW materials (the same applies, in my view, to another set of material). Having said this, I know that some evangelicals would feel this way about Catholic material, and vice-versa, and once Jehovah's Witnesses were on Logos they would probably want to be warned about materials that others of us would value.

I have no doubt that it would only be a matter of time before a pastor came onto these forums to complain that his or her youth worker had delivered a Logos-based Watchtower Arian study to their youth group, or something similar. I know that some would say "so what?" but there are pastoral issues as well as intellectual issues involved in these moves. 

I am writing this as someone who advocates and practices a generous orthodoxy and who is happy to work with and be enriched and challenged by Christians from nearly all the groups represented on Logos. I do, however, have some boundaries as to what I regard as orthodox and that orthodoxy constrains me to shield some of those for whom I exercise pastoral care from what I regard as unorthodox (I will refrain from using the "h" word here!) 


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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 29 2014 4:14 PM

Mike Pettit:
I know that many here would disagree but Logos would be antagonising some of its strongest supporters if it went this far.

I don't know about "strongest supporters" but I am sure that it would antagonize a group of supports ... and they would be vocal about it.

Mike Pettit:
Logos would forgo any meaningful claim it had to having any Christian roots.

I don't see this as following especially since the Watchtower has Christian roots ... If Logos is to have credibility as an academic or broadly Christian platform, they need to provide materials that some of their users find offensive if it presents a sizeable organization, a group its users frequently interact with or has historical relevance. It cannot redefine "Christian" to satisfy a subset of users and retain any street cred.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 29 2014 4:35 PM

GregW:
We need to bear in mind that those of us who have had the benefit of theological training, or who have developed our own theological awareness are accustomed to using our critical faculties. This is not true of everybody, and the presence of these materials in the Logos store would certainly affect the number of people I recommend Logos to. I know this should not be the case, and that we should be training people to use their critical faculties (I do),

I find your argument thought-provoking because I would never suggest Logos to someone who hadn't developed their critical faculties. The language tools and tagging both can lead to a mistaken belief that you know things that you don't even begin to understand. The Guides provide so much material that one can easily mistake the activity of click & read for Bible study. Mind you, a number of Bible study methods for dead tree format also use time and activity to replace actual study. And the value of Logos is precisely the language tools, tagging, volume of content i.e. that which requires critical faculties.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 29 2014 5:01 PM

Phil Gons:
Any specific recommendations on content we should prioritize? (e.g., the works of Charles Taze Russell?)

I thought of one;  Ravi Zacharias.

A collection of Ravi's works would complement the Peter Kreeft Bundle nicely.

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Bruce Dunning | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 29 2014 5:59 PM

Phil Gons:
It seems like Jehovah's Witnesses works make a next obvious step in rounding out our coverage of important world religions. But before we start posting this content on Community Pricing, I wanted to get your feedback.

Yes, I would like to see JW resources being offered in Logos.

In my opinion, one of the best papers I wrote in Bible College was a paper comparing Jehovah's Witness concept of God to that of the book of Isaiah. During that time I read dozens of JW books in paper format that since I have discarded due to physical space. There is value in researching with original works.

Using adventure and community to challenge young people to continually say "yes" to God

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tom | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 29 2014 6:58 PM

MJ. Smith:
If Logos is to have credibility as an academic or broadly Christian platform, they need to provide materials that some of their users find offensive
Yes

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Lynden Williams | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 29 2014 7:44 PM

I do not have any particular work that I want to see published, but I say yes lets publish it.

In the same way I am expected to read and be critical when walking into any bookstore or Library, (even Amazon) customers with theological training or none, must also take the time to read and decide if this or that book meets their needs.

Gentle people, Logos is in the business (profit) of meeting the needs of those interested in studying the scriptures, and anything remotely near to it they publish.

If you do not like the resources do not purchase.

I will purchase them if they are at the right price. I am sure some persons who follow that persuasion would like to have them in the Logos app, considering all that it can do.

Lynden Williams Communications https://www.lyndenwilliams.net 

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Lynden Williams | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 29 2014 7:57 PM

Phil if you can get some of the current stuff, published in the last ten years of so then please go for it.

Sometimes I read their articles, even give a dollar towards it. Let them know that they can also use this as a means of distributing their literature for little to nothing, or free if they so desire.

My desire is to see Logos as a Excellent theological library. As long as sufficient students request a resource, the library will try and get if for their collection.

Lynden Williams Communications https://www.lyndenwilliams.net 

Posts 2736
mab | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 29 2014 11:08 PM

There's so many more genuinely Christian works that are languishing in pre-pub or CP, that I would much rather see Logos get into libraries. 

Let's keep the main thing, the main thing. You can readily find JW stuff in the average thrift shop, even those run by the Salvation Army. I think the average price is less than a dollar, and for that stuff, more than it's really worth.

The mind of man is the mill of God, not to grind chaff, but wheat. Thomas Manton | Study hard, for the well is deep, and our brains are shallow. Richard Baxter

Posts 406
James C. | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 30 2014 1:58 AM

As one who often speaks to Jehovah's Witnesses and who has family members within that group I would be delighted to have access through Logos. I'd be interested in anything but many times the old material is of the most use because you can show where they changed their views. For example how they once taught that Jesus was going to return in 1914 and then once he didn't they changed what "really" happened in 1914 (the invisible return). I access their materials through PDF files, their software, and print materials but how much easier to do it in Logos.

So put me down for a BIG YES!

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NB.Mick | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 30 2014 3:52 AM

Phil Gons:

IMO, one of the best things about Logos is its broad library of resources. This breadth serves a wide array of theological perspectives and enables the study of opinions that differ from your own. There's great value in being able to cite a primary source, rather than always relying on a secondary one. (...)

  1. Do you appreciate our offering broad religious content in Logos?
  2. Would you be interested in having JW content in Logos?
  3. Is there a different group we should focus on first?
  4. Which would you rather have first: content from a JW perspective or content that provides a critical assessment of that perspective?
  5. Any specific recommendations on content we should prioritize? (e.g., the works of Charles Taze Russell?)

I'd love to hear your thoughts. Thanks!

  1. Yes. I've kept your first paragraph on purpose, since I find it a really great description.
  2. Not really. I don't think I'd want to pay for it. I can see the pastoral issues Greg brought up - and I think there is a business risk to Logos if JW apologetics on the web start to defend their doctrines with Logos-based "scripture studies" and use Logos' good name to gain credibility for theor results. You might win ten JW apologists as new customers and kill much of the market you aim for with Faithlife if people were to think "Logos can't be trusted". I know this is not rational, and it will not apply to the "critically trained" part of the user base, but my impression is that you want to grow somewhat beyond this. 
  3. I see lots of underdeveloped areas within traditional Christianity (those were you assigned product managers become better, but there's no complete coverage), as well as an overall issue with the ability of Logos to offer a near-current, near-complete coverage of their "home market", the evangelical.
    To draw some very broad strokes: Currently you offset the overbearing (Neo-)Puritan/Reformed Evangelical with RC and some EO, but even non-calvinist evangelical is imho not adequately covered. The Baptist, Methodist and Lutheran denominations as well as the "Progressive Christian" group have some resources, but lack material, the Restoration Movement exists nearly only in PB. Lots of areas where you could extract even more from the wallets of your existing customers plus find new customers that will buy much of the existant stuff to round out their libraries.
    If you want to grow into faith sectors beyond Christianity with material relevant for Christian users as well, I second those who voted for Jewish.  
  4. The five works your search gives on Logos.com have five more on Vyrso: https://vyrso.com/products/search?q=title%3a%22jehovah%27s+witnesses%22 plus potentially some more where JW is not in the title but in the focus of the resource. I think I own none of all these and have no idea if this is somewhere near the best and brightest of the countercult literature, or if there is a large gap. But I'm missing a "neutral" scholarly history of the JW group in these search results and a non-apologetic overview over JW doctrines and doctrinal differences.
  5. If you were to go in this direction, I'd definitely think the Watchtower "bible" is indespensable.

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Posts 1753
JoshInRI | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 30 2014 5:23 AM

I would agree with Randy.

As for other works and traditions, I am working till to learn all I can about God's Biblical Truth.

I do not have time to do a comparative religion (and cult) study though I can appreciate there may be some nominal evangelistic benefit to it.

Posts 11433
DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 30 2014 7:53 AM

This whole thread really reminds me of my grandmother's chicken-coop and the refreshing fragrance. However, fresh eggs each morning were great, and it got them through the Depression.

I'm currently reading 'Women in the Church' by Grenz/Kjesbo. Quite obviously it's an 'egalitarian' view that's trying to whack the 'complimentarian' view and since the latter isn't around to defend themselves, the egalitarians are winning hands-down.

But the authors do reference Witherington, Wright and others' writings. But what's curious is that when you go to Logos, nobody's home.  Gee, am I surprised.  I notice this pattern quite a bit.

Everytime there's some hint of non-mainstream, Logos is out hiding in the chicken-coop.  Except as regards the OT,in which case it's just the opposite.  YHWH grew up in Edom.  Although, I'll have to admit the pre-pub pages on Berit Olam surprises, with the Penteteuch written in Babylon.

"God will save his fallen angels and their broken wings He'll mend."

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 30 2014 8:15 AM

Denise:

This whole thread really reminds me of my grandmother's chicken-coop and the refreshing fragrance. However, fresh eggs each morning were great, and it got them through the Depression.

I'm currently reading 'Women in the Church' by Grenz/Kjesbo. Quite obviously it's an 'egalitarian' view that's trying to whack the 'complimentarian' view and since the latter isn't around to defend themselves, the egalitarians are winning hands-down.

But the authors do reference Witherington, Wright and others' writings. But what's curious is that when you go to Logos, nobody's home.  Gee, am I surprised.  I notice this pattern quite a bit.

Everytime there's some hint of non-mainstream, Logos is out hiding in the chicken-coop.  Except as regards the OT,in which case it's just the opposite.  YHWH grew up in Edom.  Although, I'll have to admit the pre-pub pages on Berit Olam surprises, with the Penteteuch written in Babylon.

Perhaps they enjoy the refreshing smell.  Wink

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 30
178294z | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 30 2014 8:23 AM

As an academic and apologist:

  1. Do you appreciate our offering broad religious content in Logos?  Yes. I prefer to read primary source material. Logos' hyperlink interface is THE reason I utilize it over paper. When primary sources, especially broad religious/historical contnet, is immediately available one's quality of scholarship and contextual understanding is vastly improved.
  2. Would you be interested in having JW content in Logos? Yes. I am excited about the Mormon Studies, Books of the East, & etc. Very helpful.
  3. Is there a different group we should focus on first? In the US at least Mormonism and JW are the primary Gospel challenges.
  4. Which would you rather have first: content from a JW perspective or content that provides a critical assessment of that perspective? Critical Assessment
  5. Any specific recommendations on content we should prioritize? (e.g., the works of Charles Taze Russell?) The works of Taze would be terrific
Posts 1216
Matt Hamrick | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 30 2014 8:48 AM

1. Yes, the broader the content the better.

2. Yes

3. It's going to go on community pricing so focus on any group doesn't really matter.

4. I would rather have primary source material from JW and secondary source material from the critics.

5. It's in prepub, but Edwards.

Posts 237
Rick Ratzlaff | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Feb 9 2014 1:25 PM

I haven't spent any money at Logos for some time, pulled off Pre-pub items, and don't intend to purchase anything sore some time. Now to be fair I'm semi-retired and focused on getting to know my Bible (TRUTH).

And I was instrumental in selling probably 30+ programs.

However I was extremely disappointed when Logos began to come out with so much trash that is supported right out of the pit of hell.

I read academia supporting false theological resources. That's one of the foundational problems in the TRUE CHURCH. Academics spending too much time in "mind bending" false g, trash.

Can you imagine where the Church would be today if pastors read through their Bible's 7 times a year in the original languages.

Now that I've been so dogmatic,  I'll make one more prediction. I know Logos needs to SELL BOOKS", however you are dealing with the GOD of the universe. "Avoid all appearances of evil", for one.  

Your demise will be in the face that you haven't drawn the line in the sand between error and truth. Your business plan maybe need to change so you can become the "bastion of TRUTH".

This blog primarily speaks of the 2 cults JW's and LDS, but Logos has snuggled up to others like EO and RC.

Sorry but you get no more support from here. Dare to be different and God will take care of your needs. Ask Moses.  

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Feb 9 2014 1:33 PM

Rick Ratzlaff:
I haven't spent any money at Logos for some time, pulled off Pre-pub items, and don't intend to purchase anything sore some time. Now to be fair I'm semi-retired and focused on getting to know my Bible (TRUTH).

I hope you remembered to shut your eyes before burying your head in the sand.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

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