Is the Exodus historical?

NB.Mick said:

George Somsel said:

It would appear that the Exodus was more of a theologoumenon than an historical reality.

It would appear to me that your post is either stretching the bounds of the forum rules or clearly overstepping them. Maybe the heat of youth age - fanned by the joy of making new discoveries in an old text - can be attributed until someone reaches 40 years of age, though....

Does appear to be somewhere near the line....so naturally I'll feed into it. I recall a story about historians/archaeologists mocking Bible-believing Christians because the Bible refers to the Hittites. As far as the world was concerned, the Hittites were a fictitious group...until archaeology eventually found evidence of the people.  1. The field of archaeology is not complete; we don't know everything there is to know. 2. I find it very tenuous to argue from silence when it comes to archaeology.

The best I can say is that unless the bible gives some indication that a particular pericope is to be taken as less than literal, we should accept it as literal.

THAT and the argument from silence is one of the weakest arguments out there.

Finally if the veracity of a text must be questioned, I would sooner question the veracity of the ugaritic text than the text of exodus.

Maybe thats my theological bent shining through.

George Somsel said:

William Gabriel said:

Also consider Deut 8:2-4. This was not a mundane "nomadship".

What is a "mundane 'nomadship' "?

I suspect George is non-chicken-cooping.

But I'm impressed with the archaeological record that places Egyptian military well situated in Jezreel about the time the Israelites showed up. Sort of like 'come home to mamma'.

But all clues point to the mines south of Edom ... Egyptian managed periodically, wilderness environment, geographical siting per Elijah (the one who will return), and answers why the highlands could be easily be settled (miners expert in water collection techniques).  The tiny early iron-age villages are a bit of headache, though.

I believe the Exodus is historical, there is plenty of evidence that our tractional beliefs may be wrong about the path... The Real Mount Sinai Found in Saudi Arabia - YouTube IF this is true we are searching for evidence in all the wrong places. 

-Dan

George Somsel said:

abondservant said:

George Somsel said:

William Gabriel said:

Also consider Deut 8:2-4. This was not a mundane "nomadship".

What is a "mundane 'nomadship' "?

Somewhat slower than a starship, but still faster than walking.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8QXU8TwjmQ

Edit: forgot to make the link active.

Not "Beam me up, Scotty"?

MJ. Smith said:

or refusing to be drawn into an OT debate.

Hoffmeier gave another lecture at the same library last weekend on a similar topic again, but the video isn't up yet. Keep an eye on the website I just linked to and it should be up in a week or two.

Here's the topic they discussed:

Moses Did Not Sleep Here!
A Critical Look at Some Sensational Exodus and Mt. Sinai Theories

Over the past 10-15 years there have been a number of sensational ideas advanced for where and how the Red Sea crossing occurred as the Hebrews departed Egypt and where Mt. Sinai is located. Many of these are known from popular TV programs on the History, Learning, Discovery and National Geographic Channels. Some of these theories, such as the one that has the Israelites crossing the Gulf of Aqaba and landing in Saudi Arabia will be examined biblically, archaeologically (Hoffmeier) and geologically (Moshier). Was Mt. Sinai a volcano? Is there any basis for identifying Mt. Sinai with the traditional site, Gebel Musa? These and other questions will be treated, using film clips, slides and maps.

Hilarious

George Somsel said:

Your origin and your birth were in the land of the Canaanites; your father was an Amorite, and your mother a Hittite.

Isn't this the prophetic equivalent of "Yo mama eats kitty litter"?

George Somsel said:

no archaeological evidence has be[en] discovered to support an exodus from Egypt

Isn't this arguing from archaeological silence?

George Somsel said:

A race?

Ex 19.1 NRSV">

19 On the third new moon after the Israelites had gone out of the land of Egypt, on that very day, they came into the wilderness of Sinai.

Quite a dash.  A dash of snails?

It is to 40 years in the desert...  or maybe they had people like me, i take 2 light cycles or more to cross a city street....

-Dan

AS I said for me the truth told in the story is more important to me than a proof of it historically happening. 

-Dan

Poor George,

I see that you are (with certain others) continuing to spout your rationalistic nonsense as if it were the Truth, how in the world can you find TRUTH in a lie, if you deny as you continually do the historical accuracy of Gods Word. If the bible is not historically and prophetically accurate that means whoever wrote the Bible told LIES, please inform us how you can find truth in lies.

If I were you I would close the bible and never read it again, on what basis can you trust anything that the bible says? it is not something you can pick and choose from as it suits your own mind, either you believe God is capable of giving us a complete and perfect Revelation of His mind and preserving to our day the same or you don't, if as it seems you don't please, please try some other past time and quit troubling those who have the God given faith to actually believe what the Bible says.

"And so we have the prophetic word confirmed, which you do well to heed as a light that shines in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts; knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit."2 Pet 1: 19-21

The apostle Paul certainly believed in the historical accuracy and reality of the Exodus, in 1 Corinthians 10:-

"Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, all ate the same spiritual food, and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ. But with most of them God was not well pleased, for their bodies ewere scattered in the wilderness.Now these things became our examples, to the intent that we should not lust after evil things as they also lusted. And do not become idolaters as were some of them. As it is written, “The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.” Nor let us commit sexual immorality, as some of them did,and in one day twenty-three thousand fell; nor let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed by serpents; nor complain, as some of them also complained, and were destroyed by the destroyer. Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written forour admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come."

And again the writer to the Hebrews in chapter 3:-

"And Moses indeed was faithful in all His house as a servant, for a testimony of those things which would be spoken afterward, but Christ as a Son over His own house, whose house we are if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end.

Therefore, as the Holy Spirit says:

    “Today, if you will hear His voice,

    Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion,

    In the day of trial in the wilderness,

    Where your fathers tested Me, tried Me,

    And saw My works forty years.

    Therefore I was angry with that generation,

    And said, ‘They always go astray in their heart,

    And they have not known My ways.’

    So I swore in My wrath,

    ‘They shall not enter My rest.’ ”

And again:-

"For who, having heard, rebelled? Indeed, was it not all who came out of Egypt, led by Moses? Now with whom was He angry forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose corpses fell in the wilderness? And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey? So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief."

What do we do with the writers of the New Testament do we throw them overboard also?

I really wish Logos would stop these threads, it really is disappointing that we find such unedifying babble still going on, for so long the forum rules have not been adhered to while some continue to attack the veracity of Gods Holy Word, with impunity.

Robert.

RGP said:

<snip>

I really wish Logos would stop these threads, it really is disappointing that we find such unedifying babble still going on...

Robert.

This response might be viewed as more of the same.

I was surprised Ted invoked the 'Gons' rule, since it was Phil that initiated the thread series by posing the scary question as to whether Logos could remain on the face of planet earth, if dusty JW resources found their way into the CP process.  And whether JW was just too much to stomach; maybe rants against JW's might work.  Or, well, maybe something else?

I'm sure Phil's concern wasn't theological; strictly business.  But the question is too obvious and so Ben's point concerning Mormons (and I'd assume any other non-mainstream group).  George's thread illustrated the OT and thense the Logos library argued positions far in excess of the JWs.

But the volcanic deity thread (though not YHWH) was interesting while watching Gilligan's Island and the British rare butterfly catcher.  I remember another series where the family visited Hawaii and ran afoul of the volcanic deities, but I can't remember their name.

Denise said:

But the volcanic deity thread (though not YHWH) was interesting while watching Gilligan's Island and the British rare butterfly catcher.