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Posts 737
Evan Boardman | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 2 2014 10:56 AM

I think we are going on bunny trails here, but being a Calvinist is not what makes a person Reformed. There are many Calvinist who are not Reformed. I think what makes a person Reformed or not has to do with their view on Covenant Theology.

Posts 5615
Todd Phillips | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 2 2014 11:19 AM

Richard DeRuiter:

elnwood:
I can think of Roger Greenway, Harvie Conn, John Nevius, and J. H. Bavinck, but their major works are not in Logos.

elnwood:

A quick search with Google or at Amazon for "reformed missiology" doesn't give me much of anything.

Again, I'm curious, what did you have in mind?

The sources you mentioned are some obvious ones. Add to those J. Verkuyl. I know there are others, but I'm a bit strapped for time today. You're also right about the sparse reports via google or Amazon search. I glanced at them earlier, but didn't do much digging. I'll have to do so later.

I think the "Missions" category at WTS books shows a good selection.  (Mind you, not all of it is by Reformed authors, but they're in the mix.)

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Posts 3942
abondservant | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 2 2014 11:40 AM

Evan Boardman:

I think we are going on bunny trails here, but being a Calvinist is not what makes a person Reformed. There are many Calvinist who are not Reformed. I think what makes a person Reformed or not has to do with their view on Covenant Theology.



I had written up a long reply to this but re-thought it.

There are what 4m? Presbyterians in the USA today? With that number dropping 5-10% a year as I understand it.

By contrast there are ~5m (give or take) in the SBC that consider themselves reformed (even if only in their soteriology). Were a large and rapidly growing group of people - perhaps there is a more valuable use of time then than quibbling over whether we can truly be reformed or not because we don't necessarily follow the regulative principal of worship, or baptize infants.

Were all brothers in Christ, lets share in each others successes and grieve for each others losses. Lets focus on what brings us together, rather than what divides (in so far as we can while still abiding by the spirit of the forum rules); and lets let God be sovereign enough to deal with another persons theology.

If a dispensationalist (and some do - I even know a dispensational baptist who identifies as reformed) wants to call them selves reformed, then so be it, may God eventually bring us all to a better understanding of His revealed Truth.

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 2 2014 3:37 PM

Well said.

Logos 7 Collectors Edition

Posts 1011
Mike Pettit | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 2 2014 4:04 PM

If people try to hide behind words then they should be challenged, in the right spirit of course but theology is important and words have meaning, that is why they are useful.

Posts 737
Evan Boardman | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 2 2014 4:20 PM

And theirs no need to get defensive. All I was stating was being a Calviinist doesn't make one Reformed. By the way being Reformed or not isnt what makes a person a Christian.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 2 2014 6:45 PM

Evan Boardman:

I think we are going on bunny trails here, but being a Calvinist is not what makes a person Reformed. There are many Calvinist who are not Reformed. I think what makes a person Reformed or not has to do with their view on Covenant Theology.

Speaking as a Catholic raised in the Restoration tradition and hence never being "Reformed" I have always assumed that the definition provided by standard references was correct:

Reformed Churches. The term is sometimes taken to include all the Protestant Churches which have accepted the principles of the *Reformation, but in a narrower and more accurate sense it is used specifically of those Churches influenced by the theology of J. *Calvin, J. *Knox, and U. *Zwingli, among others (popularly called *Calvinist), as contrasted esp. with the *Lutherans. This restriction is almost universal, with the corresponding expressions in French (Églises réformées) and German (reformierte Kirchen). The designation of such Churches as ‘ecclesiae reformatae’ was already general before the end of the 16th century.

F. L. Cross and Elizabeth A. Livingstone, The Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church (Oxford;  New York: Oxford University Press, 2005), 1384.

Within the tradition you're free to make additional distinctions but please remember some of us are dependent on the dictionaries for common usage. Geeked

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 3942
abondservant | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 2 2014 8:01 PM

Back on topic. As a red-headed step child of the reform movement (chuckle), I am especially interested in reformed missiological works. I grew up a combination of free-will southern baptist, and evangelical free (run by a calvinist I vehemently disagreed with - Its not the responsibility of the church to share the Gospel, "God wants the savage (or american, or canadian) he can save the savage" type thinking). As an undergrad, I attended a non-denominational school founded by and administered by the CMA staffed with southern baptists, graduates of Dallas and a campbelite math teacher (which is an issue that came up more than you'd think). My missions prof was arminean, and while from a practical perspective I learned truck loads of missiology, I am still interested in learning reformed missiological theology. I am thankful for the resources already mentioned, and have added some to my Amazon wishlist, and will await the appearance of more Reformed Missiology here within Logos.


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Posts 481
elnwood | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 2 2014 11:20 PM

Evan Boardman:

I think we are going on bunny trails here, but being a Calvinist is not what makes a person Reformed. There are many Calvinist who are not Reformed. I think what makes a person Reformed or not has to do with their view on Covenant Theology.

I like bunny trails!

Some problems with defining Reformed based on Covenant Theology:

1) Arminius was a Covenant Theologian. See, for example, Stanglin and McCall's book Jacob Arminius: Theologian of Grace, especially Chapter 4.

2) Covenant Theology is not a monolithic concept, and Reformed theology has always allowed variations.

Some, like John Murray, denied the Covenant of Works. The Westminster Standards are somewhat contradictory over whether the Covenant of Grace includes just the elect (WLC Q 31) or believers and their children (WCF 28), and Reformed theologians differ. Some view the Mosaic Covenant as a Covenant of Grace; others, like John Owen, Thomas Boston, view it as a republication Covenant of Works. Some claim it was a mix of both. The WCF defined the Covenant of Grace starting with Adam in Gen 3:15. Particular Baptists in the 17th century defined Covenant of Grace as being the New Covenant. I've heard people define Reformed Theology in terms of Covenant Theology, but it seems to me that Covenant Theology is not particularly well-defined either.

My personal thought? We should define Reformed as it has been historically defined: those Presbyterian/Reformed churches descended from the Reformation that followed John Calvin and Zwingli, as distinct from the Lutheran churches descended from Luther, the Anglican churches, Anabaptist churches, etc. Let Baptists be Baptists. Let the Reformed be Reformed.

Reformed is an ecclesiastical tradition, not a list of doctrines that you must hold in order to lawfully called that. We need to recognize that people like Karl Barth, Paul Jewett and even Lewis Sperry Chafer were writing from the Reformed tradition, even as they critiqued it.

Posts 13398
Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Apr 3 2014 3:01 AM

elnwood:
Reformed is an ecclesiastical tradition, not a list of doctrines that you must hold in order to lawfully called that.

I'll bite Smile. I know lots of Presbyterians who don't have a Reformed bone in their body. I know lots of baptists (including me!) who are clearly Reformed.

The best definition I think is that you should be in substantial agreement (though not necessarily total agreement) with the Reformed Confessions.

Posts 90
Steve Nicholson | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Apr 3 2014 4:20 AM

As a clearly Reformed Baptist I concur with our brother Mark's definition! Smile

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Rich DeRuiter | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Apr 3 2014 8:32 AM

Mark Barnes:

elnwood:
Reformed is an ecclesiastical tradition, not a list of doctrines that you must hold in order to lawfully called that.

I'll bite Smile. I know lots of Presbyterians who don't have a Reformed bone in their body. I know lots of baptists (including me!) who are clearly Reformed.

The best definition I think is that you should be in substantial agreement (though not necessarily total agreement) with the Reformed Confessions.

One interesting sport is to listen to people who consider themselves in the Reformed tradition discuss what it really means to be Reformed. For some it's mostly about certain practices (e.g., reading the 10 commandments in the worship service), for others a set of confessional statements (e.g., the Heidelberg Catechism), for others certain key doctrines (e.g., sovereignty of God, covenant theology), or a way of relating to society (e.g. Kuiper's "sphere sovereignty"), or something a bit more esoteric called "the Reformed accent."

It's even more entertaining to listen to people in this tradition discuss whether one can be a "Reformed Baptist" (or is that an oxymoron?), or if one can be Reformed and also a pietist, or a Reformed charismatic. Growing up in a Reformed denomination (the Christian Reformed Church), I remember all of those discussions, along with some "in house" discussions of what "covenant theology" is really about, or whether preaching a topical sermon is Reformed. Recently, my friend Paul VanderKley wrote an article that challenges the "new Calvinists" (Piper, et al.) as not fully Reformed.

So what does it mean to be Reformed? I'm not sure there's a single answer to that question--in fact I'm quit sure there isn't. But I'm happy I am one. I think.

 Help links: WIKI;  Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)

Posts 3942
abondservant | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Apr 3 2014 10:39 AM

Mark Barnes:

elnwood:
Reformed is an ecclesiastical tradition, not a list of doctrines that you must hold in order to lawfully called that.

I'll bite Smile. I know lots of Presbyterians who don't have a Reformed bone in their body. I know lots of baptists (including me!) who are clearly Reformed.

The best definition I think is that you should be in substantial agreement (though not necessarily total agreement) with the Reformed Confessions.



The SBC has 4 confessions of faith that are reformed, and the BF&M (which is partially so).

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Apr 3 2014 12:14 PM

Mark Barnes:
who don't have a Reformed bone in their body

You mean that they've never broken a bone? or that their broken bones never healed?

Sorry, I couldn't resist Big Smile

However, I'll trust standard dictionaries until proven false. I've had enough experience with "if it isn't Tridentine it isn't Catholic" individuals to be suspicious of anything else. However, you each are covered by the following from Theopedia (which is not a standard dictionary - yet):

Reformed theology

Reformed theology is generally considered synonymous with Calvinism and most often, in the U.S. and the UK, is specifically associated with the theology of the historic church confessions such as the Westminster Confession of Faith or the Three Forms of Unity.

What does it mean to be Reformed?

A summary of Reformed theology, or what it means to be Reformed, may be seen in the following:^[1]^

  • It means to affirm the great "Solas" of the Reformation. (See the Five Solas)
  • It means to affirm and promote a profoundly high view of the sovereignty of God.
  • It means to affirm the doctrines of grace. . . to see God as the author of salvation from beginning to end. (See Calvinism)
  • It means to be creedal. . . to affirm the great creeds of the historic, orthodox church. (See e.g. the Nicene Creed)
  • It means to be confessional. . . to affirm one or more of the great confessions of the historic orthodox church. (see e.g. the Westminster Confession)
  • It means to be covenantal. . . to affirm the great covenants of Scripture and see those covenants as the means by which God interacts with and accomplishes His purposes in His creation, with mankind. (see Covenant Theology)
  • It means to take seriously the Great Commission of Matthew 28:19-20. . . to affirm the primacy of mission and understand that mission.
  • It means to have a distinctly Christian worldview that permeates all of life.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 559
Nick Steffen | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Apr 3 2014 7:11 PM

The Encyclopedia of Christianity describes the distinction:

"Calvinism is not to be equated either with John Calvin’s theology or with that of the Reformed churches in general, though the latter are especially influenced by it. In the narrower sense the term denotes the main forms of classic Calvinism as they arose in the 16th and 17th centuries. In the broader sense it stands for the outworking of Calvinistic impulses that, in spite of many changes, may still be detected in the Reformed tradition and in other communions like the Anglican, in the Methodist churches, and among the Baptists. In contrast, there were, and still are, Reformed churches that were influenced less by Calvin than by other Reformers like U. Zwingli and H. Bullinger or in which the Calvinist legacy was combined with that of other Reformers, such as P. Melanchthon in Germany, or Bullinger and M. Bucer in England (Reformation). Calvinism, then, can hardly be identified with a single denomination or confession. Rather, it is a broad driving force in Protestantism that has also had an important influence on culture and society."

Posts 704
ChelseaFC | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 5 2014 3:48 PM

Richard DeRuiter:

  • Duplication (not of actual resources, but virtual duplication nonetheless):
  • BHS is in the list, though I have BHS/WHM 4.2 & BHW 4.18. 

Hey Richard,

    I don't know if this has been answered but for what it's worth I thought the BHS was a duplication as well because I own it. The one in this package is a 1990 edition while the other one is a 1983 edition..This is where a chart would come in handy...Hope that helps.

Cheers,

ChelseaFC

Chelsea FC- Today is a good day!

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Rich DeRuiter | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 5 2014 4:30 PM

ChelseaFC:
I don't know if this has been answered but for what it's worth I thought the BHS was a duplication as well because I own it. The one in this package is a 1990 edition while the other one is a 1983 edition..

The BHS/WHM 4.2 I have has a copyright date of 1996;  The BHS/WHM 4.18 is copyrighted 2013. I have 4 other BHS  resources hidden (BHS with WIVU; BHS/WHM 3.5; BHS/WHM 4.0; and BHS-Morphologically Tagged Edition). 

I don't need another BHS. Do I?

 Help links: WIKI;  Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)

Posts 704
ChelseaFC | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 5 2014 4:46 PM

Richard DeRuiter:

ChelseaFC:
I don't know if this has been answered but for what it's worth I thought the BHS was a duplication as well because I own it. The one in this package is a 1990 edition while the other one is a 1983 edition..

The BHS/WHM 4.2 I have has a copyright date of 1996;  The BHS/WHM 4.18 is copyrighted 2013. I have 4 other BHS  resources hidden (BHS with WIVU; BHS/WHM 3.5; BHS/WHM 4.0; and BHS-Morphologically Tagged Edition). 

I don't need another BHS. Do I?

It looks like you are covered and then some...Yes, I didn't need it either, one is quite sufficient. imho.

Chelsea FC- Today is a good day!

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Rich DeRuiter | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Apr 8 2014 8:23 AM

Gabe Martini:
The price points are the same as the same-named Base Packages in our standard Logos track. For the next two months, these will be available at 15% OFF by using coupon code REFORMEDBP at checkout. Dynamic pricing also applies, for anyone who already owns some of the resources included in a particular base package.

Got a promo today on the Logos Blog.

It's simple really: no links from the page to the actual resources being sold (not always easy to tell what they are), and no comparison chart between the packages = no sale.

I say this knowing that task is not trivial. But we're coming up on a month since the original announcement.

 Help links: WIKI;  Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)

Posts 710
JH | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Apr 8 2014 9:17 AM

Richard DeRuiter:

Gabe Martini:
The price points are the same as the same-named Base Packages in our standard Logos track. For the next two months, these will be available at 15% OFF by using coupon code REFORMEDBP at checkout. Dynamic pricing also applies, for anyone who already owns some of the resources included in a particular base package.

Got a promo today on the Logos Blog.

It's simple really: no links from the page to the actual resources being sold (not always easy to tell what they are), and no comparison chart between the packages = no sale.

I say this knowing that task is not trivial. But we're coming up on a month since the original announcement.

I agree. I am waiting on the ability to do a comparison with what I currently own, with links to what I am getting. It is hard to pay that much for a package and not make an informed decision. A Logos Rep already sent me a spreadsheet of the new resources, but that is also difficult to navigate.

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