Seeking Books that refute bart d ehrman

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This post has 38 Replies | 2 Followers

Posts 390
Alain Maashe | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, May 24 2014 9:43 AM

Denise,

This might surprise you, but “naivety” and “missing the point” are not the only alternatives when someone does not see things as you do. David did not mention Logos’ motives and the reason why they do not offer Erhman’s work. I do not like speculating on what was not stated and will let you be the interpreter of David. The fact remains that Logos’ offering of resources on one side of the debate should not be contingent on offering resources from the other side as there are many other ways to get acquainted with the arguments from the other side outside Logos. One could argue that Ehrman’s resources are desirable in Logos. However, it should not be a prerequisite for books refuting Ehrman.

Logos is not the only Blacksmith in town, some workshops even rent iron for free to those who want to practice without buying. I would know, I am a regular customer.

But what does my naïve self know?

Posts 3052
Doc B | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, May 24 2014 9:56 AM

JoshInRI:
Please note I am not initiating a debate

Sorry, Joshua, but you can't actually state an opinion in these forums without getting hammered from one side or the other. Ya gotta have some thick skin sometimes.It is unfortunate, but it is the forums. I'm as guilty as others sometimes.

As to your request, please jump on the bandwagon to get Michael Kruger's books on the Canon into Logos...they are tremendously valuable for the task you seek (but are not necessarily accessible to all ages and abilities). There are several Suggestions threads mentioning these books.

(BTW: The books are titled, "The Question of Canon" and "Canon Revisited", IIRC)

My thanks to the various MVPs. Without them Logos would have died early. They were the only real help available.

Faithlife Corp. owes the MVPs free resources for life.

Posts 32175
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, May 24 2014 11:27 AM

Alain Maashe:
or the need to differentiate between “Arian” and “particular arguments of Arian”,

Sorry, Alain, here you are wrong. There is always a need to distinguish between what is right and what is wrong in any study of the Bible or doctrine. Basic logic. Basic fairness. Basic awareness that God values every individual. It would be even more important were it Mormons or Jehovah's Witnesses. And although it has not been Logos' policy, I personally believe that one should read the literature of the Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, Northern Free Will Baptists, Catholics, Church of Christ before reading the literature that debunks them. Why? Because I have found that literature debunking others is among the most unreliable literature - factually and logically - available. So yes, I do think Logos needs both sides of each contraversial figure, sect or doctrine.

Doc B.'s suggestion to look at books on the creation of the canon is a very good one. Kruger isn't the only possibilty. The Canon of Scripture by F. F. Bruce is already in Logos.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 2782
David Ames | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, May 24 2014 11:33 AM

MJ. Smith:

I personally believe that one should read the literature of (...) before reading the literature that debunks them. Why? Because I have found that literature debunking others is among the most unreliable literature - factually and logically - available. 

Amen! My Logos Library has shown that what X says about W is often not factual when I review the true teachings of W.  

Posts 390
Alain Maashe | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, May 24 2014 12:40 PM

M.J.

I do not disagree with what you wrote above. My point was that the OP post was very clear and did not need all the disclaimers and tangents that many volunteered despite being kindly asked by the OP to refrain from doing it.

It was obvious to me that refuting “Bart Ehrman” meant refuting his controversial ideas not everything he has possibly written or said. The same would be true for Arian any other author out there.

No one is suggesting that fairness and consideration (and even love) should not be applied to all, since all (even the apostates and heretics) are made in the image of God.

The very narrow and specific request of the OP was not about the proper procedure in studying the people we disagree with, what should be read first, or what should be available in Logos for the sake of a balanced presentation of the views. While worth discussing, it was not in my view the point of the OP and does not belong in this thread without hijacking it.

The OP just wants to know what works are available (preferably in Logos)refuting Erhman. This simple request does not tell us if he has access to works by Erhman, if he has read them, and so on (and to be frank, it is none of our business unless he asked for advice on the proper procedure).

As such, the question was not about what Logos’ policy should be, what would be fair and balanced, but simply whether works taking a particular position from a particular perspective are available.

One should be able to make suggestions or requests without being subjected to lectures and sometimes demeaning comments about things that were not included in the original request especially when many of the respondent did little to answer the question of the OP. This is increasingly an issue in the Forums and some of us should know better.

Posts 1753
JoshInRI | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, May 24 2014 1:52 PM

Thanks Alain.Smile

Posts 5204
SineNomine | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, May 24 2014 2:12 PM

Alain, I really appreciate your contributions to this discussion thus far.

(If, however, I may be allowed one tangential nitpick, it is that the man Arianism was named after was a priest named Arius, not Arian.)

Posts 390
Alain Maashe | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, May 24 2014 3:14 PM

SineNomine,

You are correct. I cannot believe myself that I have repeatedly called "our" North African Presbyter "Arian" (I would not have believed it if I didn't have my posts to prove it ). I guess I might have been Thinking about Bruce Arians  of the Cardinals.

Shame on me especially since I deal with Arius, my second favorite heretic at least twice every semester.

I guess doing yard work in the afternoon under the Texas sun is not a good idea after all :)

Thanks for the correction!

Posts 390
Alain Maashe | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, May 24 2014 4:06 PM

JoshInRI:

Thanks Alain.Smile

My pleasure. Wink

Posts 32175
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, May 24 2014 6:41 PM

Alain Maashe:
One should be able to make suggestions or requests without being subjected to lectures and sometimes demeaning comments about things that were not included in the original request especially when many of the respondent did little to answer the question of the OP. This is increasingly an issue in the Forums and some of us should know better.

You are absolutely correct. In my defense, sometimes one responds not to the post in isolation but to the post in the context of their other posts. Sometimes this is obvious as in George and interlinears, Denise on post-2nd century, MJ on canon and Eastern rite. Sometimes it is based on knowledge that is not public as in XX's stroke damage or XX's mental disability . . . Sometimes it is less obvious. I should be careful to consider how a post will be read by someone new to the forums or unfamiliar with the individuals involved in the discussion

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 2782
David Ames | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 26 2014 6:22 AM

JoshInRI:

I am interested in any LOGOS protestant inexpensive, easy to read, easily shared at Bible Study, Biblically focused books that refute bart d ehrman. 

Does he need refuting?  

"I do not take a stand on the theological question of Jesus’s divine status. I am instead interested in the historical development that led to the affirmation that he is God."

 Ehrman, Bart D. (2014-03-25). How Jesus Became God: The Exaltation of a Jewish Preacher from Galilee (p. 3). HarperCollins. Kindle Edition.

Has he not thus taken himself out of the theological debate?  Do his readers remember that this is what he said on page 3 when they get to the last page of the book?

 

Posts 3052
Doc B | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 26 2014 8:27 AM

Alain Maashe:
One should be able to make suggestions or requests without being subjected to lectures and sometimes demeaning comments

YesYesYesYesYesYesYesYesYesYesYesYesYesYesYesYesYesYes

It's really simple, people. Answer the question that was asked, or ignore it.

I have to keep telling myself that, because I've been part of the problem before. But if we would grant this basic courtesy to folks on the forums, they would be such a better place to come for help.

My thanks to the various MVPs. Without them Logos would have died early. They were the only real help available.

Faithlife Corp. owes the MVPs free resources for life.

Posts 8967
RIP
Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 26 2014 8:43 AM

Doc B:

Alain Maashe:
One should be able to make suggestions or requests without being subjected to lectures and sometimes demeaning comments

YesYesYesYesYesYesYesYesYesYesYesYesYesYesYesYesYesYes

It's really simple, people. Answer the question that was asked, or ignore it.

You might try leading by example.     (I see you are all thumbs.)

Logos 7 Collectors Edition

Posts 11433
DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 26 2014 9:11 AM

This reminds me of Bible study class.   People should be able to ask their offending question without others being offended.

But no sooner is the offending question asked, then the offended have to 'ask back'.  It just seems so wrong.

But to be more exacting, Josh is a big boy. 

He put his query in the Suggestions forum. Which ALSO means other forum members are quite free to add their two cents concerning other resources contra the suggested, as well as point out other avenues of access (e.g. threads not weeks old, libraries, and old VWs that might have the desired resource in the front boot).

Some people enjoy back and forth. Others just feel it's so .... well, uncomfortable.   Then there's the ones that like to light the fire cracker and ask everyone to ignore it.

"God will save his fallen angels and their broken wings He'll mend."

Posts 5251
David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 26 2014 10:01 AM

BeerBig Smile

Just to let you know, Denise...I have a strict limit of three beers per thread. You have one more--use it wisely. Stick out tongue

ASROCK x570 Creator, AMD R9 3950x, HyperX 64gb 3600 RAM, Asus Strix RTX 2080 ti, 2tb m.2 Seagate Firecuda SSD (x2) ...and other mechano-digital happiness.

"The Unbelievable Work...believe it or not."

Posts 8967
RIP
Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 26 2014 11:12 AM

Doc B:

Alain Maashe:
One should be able to make suggestions or requests without being subjected to lectures and sometimes demeaning comments

YesYesYesYesYesYesYesYesYesYesYesYesYesYesYesYesYesYes

It's really simple, people. Answer the question that was asked, or ignore it.

I see you are all thumbs.

Logos 7 Collectors Edition

Posts 15805
Forum MVP
Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 26 2014 6:10 PM

NB.Mick:
three mention him with name, see https://vyrso.com/products/search?q=bart+ehrman

Logos.com search has 15 resources => https://www.logos.com/products/search?q=bart+ehrman

including one co-edited by Bart Ehrman in 1995 => https://www.logos.com/product/7492/the-text-of-the-new-testament-in-contemporary-research that has Chapter 22 written by Bart Ehrman

Suggest searching Logos for:

Bart NEAR Ehrman

Found a personal book => Huge encyclopaedia: The Dictionary of Christianity and the Bible has 1,214 search results.

One Vyrso eBook => https://vyrso.com/product/28950/cold-case-christianity-a-homicide-detective-investigates-the-claims-of-the-gospels mentions Bart Erhman in three chapters

Another Vyrso eBook => https://vyrso.com/product/19565/godforsaken-bad-things-happen-is-there-a-god-who-cares-yes-heres-proof has 9 search results.

Thankful for these two Vyrso eBooks having been offered for $ 0.00 along with 745 others since Thanksgiving 2011.

MJ. Smith:

If you are genuinely interested in the topic, go to the largest nearby library with a large collection of academic journals - look for reviews and replies related to Bart Ehrman. BTW I assume that you mean refuting particular arguments of Ehrman; some of his work is solid and you'd look the fool trying to refute it.

Logos offers => https://www.logos.com/product/15633/journal-of-modern-ministry-vol-4-issue-1-winter-2007 that has a critical review of Misquoting Jesus.

JETS volume 49 has a Misquoting Jesus review by Daniel B Wallace => https://www.logos.com/product/4624/journal-of-the-evangelical-theological-society

Theological Journal Library, vols. 1–15 => https://www.logos.com/product/33619/theological-journal-library-vols-1-15 includes JETS volume 54:
Chatraw, J. (2011). Disunity and Diversity: The Biblical Theology of Bart Ehrman. Journal of the Evangelical Theological Society, 54(3), 449.

Journal of Biblical Literature => https://www.logos.com/product/3626/the-journal-of-biblical-literature is included in Diamond and Portfolio

Search results included more journals so sorted results By Count:

Keep Smiling Smile

Posts 5251
David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 26 2014 7:16 PM

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :):

NB.Mick:
three mention him with name, see https://vyrso.com/products/search?q=bart+ehrman

Logos.com search has 15 resources => https://www.logos.com/products/search?q=bart+ehrman

including one co-edited by Bart Ehrman in 1995 => https://www.logos.com/product/7492/the-text-of-the-new-testament-in-contemporary-research that has Chapter 22 written by Bart Ehrman

Suggest searching Logos for:

Bart NEAR Ehrman

Found a personal book => Huge encyclopaedia: The Dictionary of Christianity and the Bible has 1,214 search results.

One Vyrso eBook => https://vyrso.com/product/28950/cold-case-christianity-a-homicide-detective-investigates-the-claims-of-the-gospels mentions Bart Erhman in three chapters

Another Vyrso eBook => https://vyrso.com/product/19565/godforsaken-bad-things-happen-is-there-a-god-who-cares-yes-heres-proof has 9 search results.

Thankful for these two Vyrso eBooks having been offered for $ 0.00 along with 745 others since Thanksgiving 2011.

MJ. Smith:

If you are genuinely interested in the topic, go to the largest nearby library with a large collection of academic journals - look for reviews and replies related to Bart Ehrman. BTW I assume that you mean refuting particular arguments of Ehrman; some of his work is solid and you'd look the fool trying to refute it.

Logos offers => https://www.logos.com/product/15633/journal-of-modern-ministry-vol-4-issue-1-winter-2007 that has a critical review of Misquoting Jesus.

JETS volume 49 has a Misquoting Jesus review by Daniel B Wallace => https://www.logos.com/product/4624/journal-of-the-evangelical-theological-society

Theological Journal Library, vols. 1–15 => https://www.logos.com/product/33619/theological-journal-library-vols-1-15 includes JETS volume 54:
Chatraw, J. (2011). Disunity and Diversity: The Biblical Theology of Bart Ehrman. Journal of the Evangelical Theological Society, 54(3), 449.

Journal of Biblical Literature => https://www.logos.com/product/3626/the-journal-of-biblical-literature is included in Diamond and Portfolio

Search results included more journals so sorted results By Count:

Keep Smiling Smile

In other words, Logos is beating around the bush and dancing around the issue...

WE NEED BART'S BOOKS ASAP.

ASROCK x570 Creator, AMD R9 3950x, HyperX 64gb 3600 RAM, Asus Strix RTX 2080 ti, 2tb m.2 Seagate Firecuda SSD (x2) ...and other mechano-digital happiness.

"The Unbelievable Work...believe it or not."

Posts 1753
JoshInRI | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 27 2014 5:25 AM

Big Smile  Keep Smiling...I appreciate you and your thoughtful research and reply.

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