Non-inverted inversion

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Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Posted: Sat, Jan 2 2010 9:47 PM

After a discussion with MikeM regarding the Masorah parva I decided to start reading Kelley's The Masorah of the Biblia Hebraica Stuttgartensia ....  When I came to the subject of the inverted nun and checked the reference given, I noted that the inverted nuns there (which I think would more appropriately be named "reversed nuns", but convention prohibits) are not inverted nuns but plain ordinary garden variety nuns.  I checked Charmap under SBL Hebrew and noted that the character is present.  Why was it decided to print normal nuns with a note that they are inverted nuns?

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 403
777 | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 3 2010 3:53 AM

Hi George,

I haven't looked recently to see where the notes regarding the inverted nuns show up in Logos resources.  Are you referring to the BHS or Kelley's work that doesn't make use of the character that is available in the SBL Hebrew font?

Thanks!

Mike

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 3 2010 4:35 AM

MikeM:

I haven't looked recently to see where the notes regarding the inverted nuns show up in Logos resources.  Are you referring to the BHS or Kelley's work that doesn't make use of the character that is available in the SBL Hebrew font?

I'm speaking of the BHS display of the inverted nun as non-inverted.  Kelley gives references regarding where they appear in chapter 3.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 403
777 | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 3 2010 4:42 AM

Thanks George.

I'm out the door now but I'll be looking at it in Logos later on.

For the lurkers that don't know about this there is a write up about it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_nun

Mike

Posts 403
777 | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 3 2010 4:52 AM

As an aside, the images of the various inverted nuns on the wikipedia page sport what are called tittles.  So if anyone has wondered what a tittle is, now you know.

Mike

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 3 2010 5:04 AM

MikeM:

As an aside, the images of the various inverted nuns on the wikipedia page sport what are called tittles.  So if anyone has wondered what a tittle is, now you know.

Mike

Tsk, tsk, Mike.  Being titilating this early in the am?

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 403
777 | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 3 2010 8:14 AM

George Somsel:

Tsk, tsk, Mike.  Being titilating this early in the am?

Well, to be technical those particular tittles are known as crowns.  Smile

I checked the Logos 4.2 morph BHS and sure enough, in Numbers 10:34 and 10:36 we have regular dime store quality nuns with a little Logos "masoretic popup" that states that it is an inverted nun.  I noticed that the wikipedia page incorrectly states that Numbers 10:35 has an inverted nun.  It doesn't.

My printed BHS has them inverted in Numbers 10:34 and 10:36.

In BibleWorks 8 the inverted nuns are both right where they are supposed to be.  Odd that Logos chose to use dime store nuns here.  Let's look at Psalm 107 and see what Logos has there too.

In Psalm 107:20 we have the Logos popup and a regular nun, as we also have at the ends of verses 21 through 25 and again in verse 39.  In BibleWorks 8 we show inverted nuns correctly in all of the aforementioned verses, as does the printed BHS.

AFAIK, you can't do a morph search in Logos to find these inverted nuns either, like you can in BibleWorks,  Interesting.

I'm not sure why Logos chose to do what they did with the inverted nuns in the 4.2 morph BHS database.  Perhaps when they last worked on that database there was no inverted nun character in the font.  The database I use in BibleWorks is up to 4.10, so things have changed a bit over time. 

I don't have the SESB here yet and I don't know how it is tagged.  Do you have the Logos SESB on your machine George?

I checked my original BHS that I bought from Logos early on with the 1993 morph database and it has a question mark in a rectangle where the inverted nuns go. Smile  In my Logos 4.0 database they appear the same as the Logos 4.2 database.  In my Logos BHS/WIVU morph database the inverted nuns appear as inverted nuns.  I need to use that WIVU database for a bit and see how their morph pans out.

Mike

 

 

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 3 2010 8:29 AM

MikeM:

I'm not sure why Logos chose to do what they did with the inverted nuns in the 4.2 morph BHS database.  Perhaps when they last worked on that database there was no inverted nun character in the font.  The databse I use in BibleWorks is up to 4.10, so things have changed a bit over time. 

I don't have the SESB here yet and I don't know how it is tagged.  Do you have the Logos SESB on your machine George?

I checked my original BHS that I bought from Logos early on with the 1993 morph database and it has a question mark in a rectangle where the inverted nuns go. Smile  In my Logos 4.0 database they appear the same as the Logos 4.2 database.  In my Logos BHS/WIVU morph database the inverted nuns appear as inverted nuns.  I need to use that WIVU database for a bit and see how their morph pans out.

I'm not sure why Logos chose to do that either.  I note that, as you say, the WIVU database does have it, but AFAT doesn't even note its existence. 

No, I don't have SESB.  I have too much on prepub to afford that at the moment (or up until now either).

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 403
777 | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 3 2010 8:31 AM

Hah!  The Anderson-Forbes Analyzed Text just leaves them completely out.

FAIL!

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 3 2010 8:45 AM

MikeM:

Hah!  The Anderson-Forbes Analyzed Text just leaves them completely out.

FAIL!

I neglected to mention that BHS 4.2 also doesn't display the enlarged letters, minuscules or raised letters.  I'll need to check WIVU for those.  While I was aware of all of these things before reading Kelley from grammars, I never bothered to check them in my Logos texts but simply in print. 

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 403
777 | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 3 2010 8:58 AM

George Somsel:

I neglected to mention that BHS 4.2 also doesn't display the enlarged letters, minuscules or raised letters.  I'll need to check WIVU for those.  While I was aware of all of these things before reading Kelley from grammars, I never bothered to check them in my Logos texts but simply in print. 

I wonder if the SESB has that or not.  I have heard that some of the SESB features no longer work with Logos 4 so I'm waiting until the smoke clears on that before I think about an investment on that resource.

I checked my printed BFBS Major 4 volume set of Ginsburg's Massoretico-Critical Edition of the Hebrew Bible here and it's got enlarged inverted nuns in Numbers.  Giinsburg used what is essentially the Second Rabbinic Bible and then laced it up with his notes that he gathered during his work on the Massorah.  Too bad Logos doesn't have these works.  I'd buy those in a heartbeat and use Logos' E-Z Payment plan if I needed to.

 

Posts 403
777 | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 3 2010 9:48 AM

Dotan's Biblia Hebraica Leningradensia has real nice inverted nuns.  I will have to check my Letteris and BHK too, along with my other Ginsburg set.

I remember going through this all years ago on the inverted nuns, but I had forgotten how each work had depicted them.  So far, I like Ginsburg's the best with Dotan's in second place.

I'm going to go stare at the SESB 3 page and see if it perhaps has some massoretic features.

 

Posts 403
777 | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 3 2010 10:04 AM

Well the SESB 3 doesn't appear to be any friendlier to Massorah studies than anything else that Logos offers and after I re-read the SESB page I'm not of the mind to buy it any longer.  I have big chunks of the included resources already here and unless I can get it for like $90 I'll probably pass.  I'd not mind having what Logos offers for BHQ as I have some of that already in my library and it's interesting.

Maybe the inverted nuns are available as an add-in resource.  Wink

Posts 403
777 | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 3 2010 11:31 AM

I looked at my copy of The Leningrad Codex by Eerdmans/Brill and on page 174 you'll find folio 81 verso of the Leningrad Codex.  In the right hand column about 3/5 of the way down is Numbers 10:34-36.  I see no masoretic notation at the end of verse 34 (it's not like the verses are marked - lol) but there is a very distinguishable mark at the end of verse 36 and it's not an inverted nun.  I guess the wikipedia page could be correct as the first inverted nun that appears in Numbers comes after the text of verse 34 so the two inverted nuns seem to frame verses 35 and 36.

I'll have to get my magnifying glass and look closer at this photo-facsimile of the Leningrad codex.  It's interesting to look at but not something that I would want to use for day to day studies.  If your library has this volume you ought to take a look at it.

Mike

Posts 2212
Damian McGrath | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 3 2010 4:07 PM

Mike, Fascinating discussion.

Here are my texts with pictures:

 

1. Westminster 4.0

 

2. Westminster 4.2

 

3. SESB

 

4. WIVU

 

5. BHS - Morpologically Tagged Edition (I think that I meant to hide this one).

 

 

Interesting that none of them accurately reflects the BHS.

The inverted nun should come between the colon and the section marker (which is, I think, what the last was trying to do - but the font is missing)

Posts 403
777 | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 3 2010 6:54 PM

Hi Damian,

Thanks for the pictures.  You changed my mind on buying the SESB 3 package because I'm now curious about that SESB version again.  Do you mind if I ask you just how crippled it got moving it to Logos 4 compared to what functionality you had with it using Logos 3?  I would like to have it, but not if it's just pretty.

We ought to start reporting typos on a grand scale and have Logos update the BHS to include what is in the printed BHS - along with updating the morph database and getting them to tag it with their whiz-bang syntax codes to boot.  While we're at it, we could get them to allow us to do searches that are a bit more fine grained - like accent and vowel point searches.  And we could get them to make a new font with crowned letters (OK, I'm going overboard now).  Maybe later on the font.

I wonder if we reported a typo on that old old BHS if Logos would fix it.  It's like 15 years old now. Smile

I think I'm going to report all of the inverted nuns in the 4.2 BHS as typos now and let them know.  We all ought to. I think one of the reasons that Logos dropped their graphical search in Logos 4 is because folks probably turn off Logos' snooping (I did and still do), so they figured all 11 people that used it were not worth the time to put it into L4.  We that study in the original languages ought to be more proactive about reporting things so Logos gets the picture that this stuff is important.

Posts 403
777 | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 3 2010 6:57 PM

On second thought, I think that really old BHS is a lost cause.  Look at the vowels.  Lol.

Posts 2212
Damian McGrath | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 3 2010 7:02 PM

MikeM:
Do you mind if I ask you just how crippled it got moving it to Logos 4 compared to what functionality you had with it using Logos 3?

Mike, I'm not really sure how to answer this. I didn't use any of the fancy searches (where there some?) or the syntax stuff. I'm interested in a faithful reproduction of the texts and apparatuses.. in this regard, I don't ever hesitate to recommend the SESB stuff...

 

Do you want pictures?????

BHS, BHQ, Vulgate, LXX, NA27, GNT?

Posts 2212
Damian McGrath | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 3 2010 7:08 PM

There is a problem with BHQ. See http://community.logos.com/forums/p/6673/69371.aspx

Posts 403
777 | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 3 2010 7:12 PM

Damian McGrath:

MikeM:
Do you mind if I ask you just how crippled it got moving it to Logos 4 compared to what functionality you had with it using Logos 3?

Mike, I'm not really sure how to answer this. I didn't use any of the fancy searches (where there some?) or the syntax stuff. I'm interested in a faithful reproduction of the texts and apparatuses.. in this regard, I don't ever hesitate to recommend the SESB stuff...

 

Do you want pictures?????

BHS, BHQ, Vulgate, LXX, NA27, GNT?

I was primarily concerned with the searching and the apparatuses.  Since you did not use the SESB search, I have no clue how it works in L4 or if it even is available.  Is the SESB search even available in L4?

On the apparatuses - how are those and do they have any functionality?  Or are they like a static picture of the apparatuses?

PICTURES?  Thanks for the one you already posted with SESB 2's BHS.  Now I'm wondering if version 3 of the SESB is using that same BHS that you have in SESB 2 or if they are now using the BHS/WIVU, which I already have here.   Hmmmmmm.  Go upgrade to SESB 3.0 and let me know.  I'll go put the kettle on while I wait for you to do that, OK?

Big Smile

 

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