Set release dates for Pre-Publications

I have ordered some resources last year that were on pre-publication. These are academic resources that I need for doctoral work. When the year end came by and then the Spring and they were still "in production" I waited patiently inasmuch as I was taken up by other greater priorities anyway. Then a "last chance to get..." message was given by Logos and a release date in early June announced (the specific date was provided). This was more than a month ago. The collection is still not released.

I am concerned as September approaches and I need to have these resources available earlier. This post then is a bit of a complaint but more so a (strong) suggestion that once a resource hits production stage, a date be set (like movie release dates) and kept. Those who depend on resources for their work must be provided with reliable expectations as to when resources will be available.

As it is, I had the option to purchase the resources from other sources if I had known that it was not going to be available on time. But now, I still don't know whether they will be. It is just not right to be kept hanging like that. I am not sure if too many offerings are being put out and then the production team is not able to keep up, but whatever be the case, Logos claims to be and has become a professional academic tool and it means that professionals need to know what they can count on.

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MJ. Smith

This post then is a bit of a complaint but more so a (strong) suggestion that once a resource hits production stage, a date be set (like movie release dates) and kept.

It is because this is impossible that Logos does not give estimated dates. We as users take them as "promises" and get upset when they are not met or get upset because resources still have problems that should have been resolved before release.

The problem is the number of unknowns at the start of the process. And no it is not just Logos - I just received a book from Amazon that originally had a release date of December 2013 that was essential for some of my work. I understand your frustration and suspect the more resources Logos produces the more refined their estimates and projections will become.

George Somsel

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/609859#Comment_609859

Oh, MJ, they should be able to say that they will release something Aug 1, 2014 at 3:00 pm and that should be final ! [^o)] [:D] [;)]

Dan Francis

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/609867#Comment_609867

It might be nice if they could give a very rough estimate then maybe (Subject to change) after it. I know Logos never puts dates up till they are confident in the timetable. But there are always people who need something by a certain date and it would be nice for them to know if it is even feasible to see it by the time they need it. Also it would be nice (and I believe Bob may have said this is coming) to see under production verses simply under contract. Like the old under contract for the WBC... Last we heard they had yet to be even given the text for the ones actually released let alone the acts volume that has not yet been published. Now that Zondervan is in charge maybe we can see movement on the WBC.

-Dan

Francis

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/609867#Comment_609867

Papers are due at given dates. People get sick, accidents happen, life happens. Some of it is exceptional in which case extensions are granted. Otherwise, it is understood to be part of the ebb and flow of what has to be managed in order to be accountable. The same is true of production in companies. Once the rights of a book have been secured and enough orders have been put in to start production, it is hard to see why there should not be an informed estimate of the release date, including a bit of margin for setbacks.

I am not arguing that publishing a Logos book is as simple as writing a paper. so please let's not go there. I am just saying that a pre-pub resource that enters production is a product. To the extent that it has been offered for orders and enough orders are in to start production, Logos has enough experience with publishing to be able to make some commitments it can keep. It is after all, presenting itself as not merely a product for the wide public, but also for professionals. Software packages that are much more complex than any single resource could ever be are also subject to setbacks and accidents along the way, yet announcements are made as to their release dates and by and large kept. These are commitments to the buyer.

So if someone wanted to buy a game console, they knew they only had to wait until last Christmas to get in the US. They could make an informed decision about waiting for it or going for a competitor's product. That's what I am talking about.

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/609877#Comment_609877

It might be nice if they could give a very rough estimate

That would be nice.

Dan Francis

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/609879#Comment_609879

It is a rare exception for Logos to put up dates that are more than 3-4 weeks off... I believe they did so with the New Interpreter's Bible since a competitor had released it in May, which with in a week or so the August 2014 appeared up there. Had Logos been following their typical practice we would not have seen the release date till probably about now. That being said I saw over in the competitors forums one person said they purchased the NIB from them because they got it released first.

-Dan

Rosie Perera

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/609879#Comment_609879

Software packages that are much more complex than any single resource could ever be are also subject to setbacks and accidents along the way, yet announcements are made as to their release dates and by and large kept.

In what alternate universe is that sentence true? [:)] "Vaporware" and schedule slips are common in the software industry.

Looking back over the multi-century history of product shipments, it is only extremely recently that consumers have expected/demanded to know in advance when a product will be available. There was a time not too long ago (in my childhood even) when people were satisfied with what they had and didn't NEED to buy a game console by Christmas time if it didn't exist by Christmas time. If they wanted to buy a present for someone, they'd go shopping and buy what was available at the time. If a researcher needed books, she would use what was available already in libraries. None of this pre-pub order stuff existed at all. See how impatient we've become in a decade or so. I can't recall the concept of "pre-pub" orders being available from any supplier much before then. Logos was actually one of the first pioneers in the idea, I think.

Reminds me of comedian Louis C.K.'s great take on this theme (warning: a tiny bit of rude language, but it's bleeped out): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEY58fiSK8E

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/609879#Comment_609879

Logos has enough experience with publishing to be able to make some commitments it can keep.

It does make some. Experience tells me it makes some commitments it can't keep, thinks its met some that were problematic, and meets some it didn't have the confidence to give public exposure. I would rather push for better QA than better meeting of self-imposed "deadlines".

Francis

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/609916#Comment_609916

I am not really interested in the opinions of those who don't think it is an issue. If it is not an issue for you, good for you. But for those for whom it is, it would be nice not to have their concerns sidestepped and more respect for their concerns.

Rosie, there is a clear difference between wanting to have one's consumerist thirst satiated; It is quite another to be ask to know when an item that is already ORDERED will be available. I am not salivating and tugging on Logos' sleeve to know when the next upgrade will be available so I can toy with it. A product was offered for sale. I ordered it. When someone offers something for sale, there are responsibilities to buyers that follow. If it is not ready to be put up for sale, it should not be offered until such commitments can be made.

I understand that the duration of the phase for gathering interest is by nature indefinite, but production should not be.

Rosie Perera

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/610003#Comment_610003

I understand that the duration of the phase for gathering interest is by nature indefinite, but production should not be.

If production were linear then it would be completely predictable. But it's not. They have hundreds of book projects going on in parallel, and only a fraction of that many people employed working on them. They shift their priorities back and forth between different resources that are in the pipeline, depending on factors that are not entirely under the control or advance knowledge of Logos (publisher whims, legal snags, etc.). So it's not like they can set up their project management software with a start date and add to that the number of days it takes to produce title X and come out with an end date when it will be finished. If they could do that reliably, I'm sure they'd be giving us more dates in advance.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/610003#Comment_610003

I am not really interested in the opinions of those who don't think it is an issue. If it is not an issue for you, good for you. But for those for whom it is, it would be nice not to have their concerns sidestepped and more respect for their concerns.

I apologize if I came across as not recognizing it is an issue - it is a serious issue. I was trying to express my belief that I don't see any practical way to solve the issue. Different users have different priorities as to which become issues for them. Different resources hit different unexpected roadblocks that take particular resources and periods of time to resolve. I've seen nothing that implied Logos wasn't trying to schedule accurately and use its available resources efficiently ... but I've still seen critical products pulled for copyright issues, products released missing critical tagging, ... I guess what I'm saying is I don't think I could do better because I don't see a systemic, fixable flaw. However, I do think I could improve QA[;)]

Francis

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/610007#Comment_610007

Thanks, MJ, and I likewise apologize for my irritation...

Erwin Stull, Sr.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/610010#Comment_610010

I definitely can see where pre-pubs release date would be a big issue in some settings. If you are attending a class in September where book "A" is required but book "A" is in Logos pre-pub, and you prefer to have the Logos edition, it would be nice to know if you will be able to purchase book "A" in time for the class, or should you just look at getting book "A" from another source. Now, if you get book "A" from another source now, then come August and Logos releases the book, it is then frustrating because you either have to have buy the same resource in Logos (thus wasting much needed money) or do without all of the search and linking functions that the Logos version will offer. You would have been able to make a more informed decision if you knew if the Logos book "A" would definitely be released in time for your class.

fgh

I can think of one thing they could do: add a "Not before ..." date to resources that are expected to take more than 3 months to produce. It wouldn't help everyone, but it would help some people with deadlines, and some people trying to plan their expenses.

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/610089#Comment_610089

I can think of one thing they could do: add a "Not before ..." date to resources that are expected to take more than 3 months to produce. It wouldn't help everyone, but it would help some people with deadlines, and some people trying to plan their expenses.

Now that is a good approach. I am not so much impatient as I am wary of three big resources shipping at once.

Alan Macgregor

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/610102#Comment_610102

I wonder …? Is this the resource? Due for release 19th June; pulled back that very day! No news is bad news! [:'(]

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/610108#Comment_610108

I wonder …? Is this the resource?

No. I am more concerned about when this resource will ship. I want to pick up several mEd titles but I am afraid to.

Francis

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/610108#Comment_610108

I wonder …? Is this the resource?

The one I am waiting for is Studies in John by Fortress Press. Same as you, it was advertised to come out early in June and since then, nada. It's been "in production" for a long time.

Rosie Perera

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/610089#Comment_610089

I can think of one thing they could do: add a "Not before ..." date to resources that are expected to take more than 3 months to produce. It wouldn't help everyone, but it would help some people with deadlines, and some people trying to plan their expenses.

That is a very good suggestion that would help people make informed purchase decisions.

Dan Francis

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/610116#Comment_610116

I wonder …? Is this the resource?

No. I am more concerned about when this resource will ship. I want to pick up several mEd titles but I am afraid to.

LOL I am worried enough about When the Eerdmans Bible Commentary Bundle comes out... I already had to call Logos up and have NIB added to my monthly plan (although they had to change me $539 rather than the $489 but at least I get it), it would have been completely ironic for me to be promoting the NIB so heavily and then not getting it.

-Dan

Francis

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/610149#Comment_610149

A new twist to the saga for those of us who are waiting for Fortress Press packages. While the smaller packages such as Studies in John or Studies in Mark still show as "under development", the larger bundle which include all of these volumes is out. See https://www.logos.com/product/41785/fortress-press-new-testament-studies-bundle

I don't know for how much time it has been out, I only noticed yesterday. Glitch or commercial ploy?

Dan Francis

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/612181#Comment_612181

If i have learned anything as a Logos user it is this BIG sets usually get released in the summer... Don;t know why but it seems to be the same every summer... Which ones can I afford to get... If I didn't have a monthly payment plan already I would avail my self of the savings account but until my Logos is paid off this is just a good idea.

-Dan

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/612233#Comment_612233

If i have learned anything as a Logos user it is this BIG sets usually get released in the summer... Don;t know why but it seems to be the same every summer.

I have noticed that too. I just assumed it was because Logos offers expensive stuff in the 12 Days of Logos Sale and did not want to compete with themselves.

Francis

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/612237#Comment_612237

Well, it took a good round of communications with Logos (all of it courteous) but Studies in John is coming out in two weeks. I would assume that it should be the same for other Fortress Press smaller NT bundles though I have not checked.

[:D]