Old version of Pseudepigrapha vs. Charlesworth's newer version?

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Milkman | Forum Activity | Posted: Thu, Sep 18 2014 5:01 PM

Can anyone tell me if there is much of a difference between Charles' Pseudepigrapha and Charlesworth's version?

mm.

I was in dialogue with a Logos sr, but unfortunately Logos is experiencing some issues. Gee that sounds like a common issue these days.

mm.

Posts 5318
Dan Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 18 2014 5:17 PM

Charlesworth is better in my mind...

31 O thou who thunderest from on high, blessed heavenly one, who hast the Cherubim 2 as thy throne, I pray thee give me a short respite from mine unerring oracle, 3 for my soul within me is weary. 4 Nay, why did my heart again flutter, and why is my soul, 5 lashed with a spur from within, compelled to announce my message 6 to all? So again I will proclaim all 7 that God bids me proclaim unto men.
8 Ye men that bear the form that God did mould in his image, 9 why do ye wander at random and walk not in the straight path, 10 being ever mindful of the eternal Creator? 11 There is one sovereign God, ineffable, whose dwelling is in heaven, 12 self sprung, unseen yet seeing all himself alone. 13 No mason’s hand did make him, nor does some model formed from gold 14 or ivory by the varied skill of man represent him. 15 But he, himself Eternal, hath revealed himself 16 as One who is and was before, yea and shall be hereafter. 17 For who, being mortal, can gaze on God with his eyes? 18 Or who could bear even to hear the mere name 19 of the mighty, heavenly God, the World-Ruler? 20 Who by his word created all, both heaven and sea 21 and tireless sun and moon at full 22 and twinkling stars, mighty mother Ocean, 23 springs and rivers, fire immortal, days and nights. 24 Yea it is God Himself who fashioned four-lettered Adam, 25 the first man fashioned, who completes in his name 26 morn and dusk, antarctic and arctic. 27 He too both established the fashion of the form of mortal men 28 and made the beasts and things that creep and fly. 29 Ye do not worship nor fear God, but wander at haphazard, 30 bowing down to serpents and doing sacrifice to cats, 31 and to dumb idols and stone statues of mortal wights, 32 and sitting down before the doors of godless temples 33 ye weary the God who ever is, who guards all 34, taking your delight in miserable stones, forgetting the judgement 35 of the Eternal Saviour Who created heaven and earth. 36 O race that delights in blood, crafty, wicked race of godless men, 37 liars and double-tongued, immoral, 38 adulterous, idolatrous, of wily devices, 39 within whose heart is evil, a frenzied spur, 40 snatching for yourselves, having a shameless mind! 41 For no man of wealth endowed with goods will give any part to another, 42 but miserable meanness shall be among all mortals, 43 and faith they shall never keep at all, 44 but many widowed women shall have other secret lovers for lucre’s sake, 45 and gaining husbands shall not keep hold of the rope of life.


Robert Henry Charles, ed., Pseudepigrapha of the Old Testament, vol. 2 (Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software, 2004), 378–379.

THE SIBYLLINE ORACLES

Book 3


FROM THE SECOND BOOK CONCERNING GOD

The inspiration of the Sibyl

* Blessed, heavenly one, who thunders on high, who have the cherubim
as your throne, I entreat you to give a little rest
to me who have prophesied unfailing truth, for my heart is tired within.
But why does my heart shake again? and why is my spirit
5* lashed by a whip, compelled from within to proclaim
an oracle to all? But I will utter everything again,
as much as God bids me say to men.


Praise of God and denunciation of idolatry

Men, who have the form which God molded in his image,
why do you wander in vain, and not walk the straight path
10* ever mindful of the immortal creator?
There is one God, sole ruler, ineffable, who lives in the sky,
self-begotten, invisible, who himself sees all things.
No sculptor’s hand made him, nor does a cast
of gold or ivory reveal him, by the crafts of man,
15* but he himself, eternal, revealed himself
as existing now, and formerly and again in the future.
For who, being mortal, is able to see God with eyes?
or who will be able even to hear only
the name of the great heavenly God who rules the world?
20* who created everything by a word, heaven and sea,
untiring sun, full moon,
shining stars, strong mother Tethys,
springs and rivers, imperishable fire, days, nights.
Indeed it is God himself who fashioned Adam, of four letters,
25* the first-formed man, fulfilling by his name
east and west and south and north.
He himself fixed the shape of the form of men
and made wild beasts and serpents and birds.
You neither revere nor fear God, but wander to no purpose,
30* worshiping snakes and sacrificing to cats,
speechless idols, and stone statues of people;
and sitting in front of the doors at godless temples
you do not fear the existing God who guards all things.
You rejoice in the evil of stones, forgetting the judgment
35 of the immortal savior who created heaven and earth.
Alas for a race which rejoices in blood, a crafty and evil race
of impious and false double-tongued men and immoral
adulterous idol worshipers who plot deceit.
There is wickedness in their breasts, a frenzy raging within.
40* They ravage booty for themselves and have a shameless spirit.
For no one who is rich and has possessions will give a share to another
but there will be terrible wickedness among all mortals.
They will have no fidelity at all. Many widowed women
will love other men secretly for gain;
45 and those who have husbands will not keep hold of the rope of life.


James H. Charlesworth, The Old Testament Pseudepigrapha, vol. 1 (New York;  London: Yale University Press, 1983), 362–363.

But not only is the translation clearer there is massive amounts of introductory material to each chapter....


THE SIBYLLINE ORACLES, BOOK 3


Introduction

The third Sibyl is the only book of the collection that has received extensive scholarly attention. The composite nature of the book has been recognized by virtually all scholars,2 but the fragmentation of the book proposed by Geffcken is certainly excessive. In fact we may distinguish three stages in the book:4
1. The main corpus: verses 97–349 and 489–829.
2. Oracles against various nations: 350–488.
3. Verses 1–96, which probably constitute the conclusion of a different book. One verse (776) must be regarded as a Christian interpolation.


1. The main corpus

In the main corpus of the book five oracles may be distinguished: (1) 97–161; (2) 162–95; (3) 196–294; (4) 545–656; (5) 657–808. The first of these, 97–161, stands apart from the rest of the book. It contains: (a) the fall of the tower of Babylon (97–104); (b) a euhemeristic account of the war of the Titans against Cronos and his sons (105–55); (c) a list of world empires (156–61).
The description of the fall of the tower has been widely thought to be a fragment from a collection of oracles of a Babylonian sibyl, perhaps influenced by Berossus, but this theory has been soundly refuted by Nikiprowetzky. There is nothing in the Sibylline account that could not be developed from Genesis.


James H. Charlesworth, The Old Testament Pseudepigrapha, vol. 1 (New York;  London: Yale University Press, 1983), 354.

I gave you the starting sample which is 7 pages long....

-Dan

Posts 3703
Milkman | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 18 2014 5:26 PM

@ Dan:

Yep big difference in language flow & it would seem intro's very helpful. - Thanks!

mm.

Posts 1178
David Wilson | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 18 2014 5:48 PM

R. H. Charles: Pseudepigrapha of the Old Testament  (volume two of the above set): (with a separate apparatus)

The Pseudepigrapha of the Old Testament

General Introduction (Charles)

Primitive History Rewritten from the Standpoint of the Law—

The Book of Jubilees (Charles)

Sacred Legends—

The Letter of Aristeas (Andrews)

The Books of Adam and Eve (Wells)

The Martyrdom of Isaiah (Charles)

Apocalypses—

1 Enoch (Charles)

The Testaments of the XII Patriarchs (Charles)

The Sibylline Oracles (Lanchester)

The Assumption of Moses (Charles)

2 Enoch, or the Book of the Secrets of Enoch (Forbes and Charles)

2 Baruch, or the Syriac Apocalypse of Baruch (Charles)

3 Baruch, or the Greek Apocalypse of Baruch (Hughes)

4 Ezra (Box)

Psalms—

The Psalms of Solomon (Gray)

Ethics and Wisdom Literature—

4 Maccabees (Townshend)

Pirkē Aboth (Herford)

The Story of Ahịḳar (Harris, Lewis, Conybeare).

History—

The Fragments of a Zadokite Work (Charles).

General Index

Charlesworth:  Volume One

Contents

Foreword  - George W. MacRae, S.J.

Foreword for Christians  - James T. Cleland

Foreword for Jews  - Samuel Sandmel

Editor’s Preface  - James H. Charlesworth

Board of Advisors

Contributors

Introduction for the General Reader  - James H. Charlesworth

Explanation of Typographical and Reference Systems

List of Abbreviations

Documents

Apocalyptic Literature And Related Works

Introduction  - J. H. Charlesworth

1 (Ethiopic Apocalypse of) Enoch (Second Century b.c.–First Century a.d.) - E. Isaac

2 (Slavonic Apocalypse of) Enoch (Late First Century a.d.) with Appendix: 2 Enoch in Merilo Pravednoe - F. I. Andersen

3 (Hebrew Apocalypse of) Enoch (Fifth to Sixth Century a.d.) - P. Alexander

Sibylline Oracles (Second Century b.c.–Seventh Century a.d.) - J. J. Collins

Treatise of Shem (First Century b.c.)  - J. H. Charlesworth

Apocryphon of Ezekiel (First Century b.c.–First Century a.d.) - J. R. Mueller and S. E. Robinson

Apocalypse of Zephaniah (First Century b.c.–First Century a.d.) - O. S. Wintermute

The Fourth Book of Ezra (Late First Century a.d.)  - B. M. Metzger

Greek Apocalypse of Ezra (Second to Ninth Century a.d.)  - M. E. Stone

Vision of Ezra (Fourth to Seventh Century a.d.) - J. R. Mueller and G. A. Robbins

Questions of Ezra (Date Unknown) - M. E. Stone

Revelation of Ezra (prior to Ninth Century a.d.) - D. A. Fiensy

Apocalypse of Sedrach (Second to Fifth Century a.d.) - S. Agourides

2 (Syriac Apocalypse of) Baruch (early Second Century a.d.) - A. F. J. Klijn

3 (Greek Apocalypse of) Baruch (First to Third Century a.d.) - H. E. Gaylord, Jr.

Apocalypse of Abraham (First to Second Century a.d.) - R. Rubinkiewicz

Apocalypse of Adam (First to Fourth Century a.d.) - G. MacRae

Apocalypse of Elijah (First to Fourth Century a.d.) - O. S. Wintermute

Apocalypse of Daniel (Ninth Century a.d.) - G. T. Zervos

Testaments (Often With Apocalyptic Sections)

Introduction  - J. H. Charlesworth

Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs (Second Century b.c.) - H. C. Kee

Testament of Job (First Century b.c.–First Century a.d.) - R.P. Spittter

Testaments of the Three Patriarchs:  Introduction - E. P. Sanders

Testament of Abraham (First to Second Century a.d.) - E. P. Sanders

Testament of Isaac (Second Century a.d.) - W. F. Stinespring

Testament of Jacob (Second to Third Century a.d.?) - W. F. Stinespring

Testament of Moses (First Century a.d.) - J. Priest

Testament of Solomon (First to Third Century a.d.) - D. C. Duling

Testament of Adam (Second to Fifth Century a.d.) - S. E. Robinson

A Volume of Alternate Texts to those in the main volume 1

Charlesworth: Volume Two

Contents

Foreword  - George W. MacRae, S.J.

Foreword for Christians   - James T. Cleland

Foreword for Jews - Samuel Sandmel

Editor’s Preface - James H. Charlesworth

Board of Advisors

Contributors

Introduction for the General Reader - James H. Charlesworth

Explanation of Typographical and Reference Systems

List of Abbreviations

Documents

Expansions of the "Old Testament" and Legends

Introduction - J. H. Charlesworth

Letter of Aristeas (Third Century b.c.–First Century a.d.) - R. J. H. Shutt

Jubilees (Second Century b.c.) - O. S. Wintermute

Martyrdom and Ascension of Isaiah (Second Century b.c.–Fourth Century a.d.) - M. A. Knibb

Joseph and Aseneth (First Century b.c.–Second Century a.d.) - C. Burchard

Life of Adam and Eve (First Century a.d.) - M. D. Johnson

Pseudo-Philo (First Century a.d.) - D. J. Harrington

The Lives of the Prophets (First Century a.d.) - D. R. A. Hare

Ladder of Jacob (c. First Century a.d.) - H. G. Lunt

4 Baruch (First to Second Century a.d.) - S. E. Robinson

Jannes and Jambres (First to Third Century a.d.) - A. Pietersma and T. R. Lutz

History of the Rechabites (First to Fourth Century a.d.) - J. H. Charlesworth

Eldad and Modad (prior to Second Century a.d.) - E. G. Martin

History of Joseph (prior to Fourth Century a.d.) - G. T. Zervos

 

Wisdom and Philosophical Literature

Introduction - J. H. Charlesworth

Ahiqar (Seventh to Sixth Century b.c.) - J. M. Lindenberger

3 Maccabees (First Century b.c.) - H. Anderson

4 Maccabees (First Century a.d.) - H. Anderson

Pseudo-Phocylides (First Century b.c.–First Century a.d.) - P. W. van der Horst

The Sentences of the Syriac Menander (Third Century a.d.) - T. Baarda

Prayers, Psalms, And Odes

Introduction - J. H. Charlesworth

More Psalms of David (Third Century b.c.–First Century a.d.) - J. H. Charlesworth with J. A. Sanders

Prayer of Manasseh (Second Century b.c.–First Century a.d.) - J. H. Charlesworth

Psalms of Solomon (First Century b.c.) - R. B. Wright

Hellenistic Synagogal Prayers (Second to Third Century a.d.) - D. R. Darnell and D. A. Fiensy

Prayer of Joseph (First Century a.d.)  - J. Z. Smith

Prayer of Jacob (First to Fourth Century a.d.) - J. H. Charlesworth

Odes of Solomon (Late First to Early Second Century a.d.) - J. H. Charlesworth

Supplement

Fragments of Lost Judeo-Hellenistic Works

Editor’s Introduction  - J. H. Charlesworth

General Introduction, with a Note on Alexander Polyhistor - J. Strugnell

poetry

Philo the Epic Poet (Third to Second Century b.c.) - H. Attridge

Theodotus (Second to First Century b.c.) - F. Fallon

oracle

Orphica (Second Century b.c.–First Century a.d.)  - M. Lafargue

drama

Ezekiel the Tragedian (Second Century b.c.) - R. G. Robertson

other

Fragments of Pseudo-Greek Poets (Third to Second Century b.c.) - H. Attridge

philosophy

Aristobulus (Second Century b.c.) - A. Yarbro Collins

chronography

Demetrius the Chronographer (Third Century b.c.) - J. Hanson

history

Aristeas the Exegete (prior to First Century b.c.) - R. Doran

Eupolemus (prior to First Century b.c.) - F. Fallon

Pseudo-Eupolemus (prior to First Century b.c.) - R. Doran

Cleodemus Malchus (prior to First Century b.c.) - R. Doran

romance

Artapanus (Third to Second Century b.c.) - J. J. Collins

appendix :

Pseudo-Hecataeus (Second Century b.c.–First Century a.d.) - R. Doran

Posts 11433
DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 18 2014 6:58 PM

The two are a bit of apples and oranges.  

- Charlesworth tends to be more high level, and also includes more territory.

- Charles is probably quoted far more, largely due to the inclusion of line-based commentary (OT apocrypha and pseudepigrpha).

There's another one I like better (mentioned in your 2nd Temple Judaism thread).  It proceeds chronologically, introducing each PG and how it likely fit.  

While you're up there waiting for snow flakes, we just got back from the Fiery Furnace (Utah) and our brains are toasted.

"God will save his fallen angels and their broken wings He'll mend."

Posts 3703
Milkman | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Sep 19 2014 3:59 AM

Morning Denise, well it looks like we might have staved off old man winter for another month, but he's on his way. Save some of that brain heat till January and then send it northward. They're calling for an unusually cold winter here. What else is new on the lone prairie?

By the way? what specific book were you referring to in my thread?

mm

Denise:

The two are a bit of apples and oranges.  

- Charlesworth tends to be more high level, and also includes more territory.

- Charles is probably quoted far more, largely due to the inclusion of line-based commentary (OT apocrypha and pseudepigrpha).

There's another one I like better (mentioned in your 2nd Temple Judaism thread).  It proceeds chronologically, introducing each PG and how it likely fit.  

While you're up there waiting for snow flakes, we just got back from the Fiery Furnace (Utah) and our brains are toasted.

mm.

Posts 11433
DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Sep 19 2014 12:01 PM

Lone prairie?  We wish! (The Eurovan is specially equipped to slow down on hills around here.)

The volume was the one Ken mentioned: https://www.logos.com/product/15718/jewish-literature-between-the-bible-and-the-mishnah 

It's especially useful where a writing clearly is in 'pieces' .... slowly incrementing over time (best example Sibylline Oracles).  The latter is an excellent example of modern judgment overlaying ancient judgment .... 'Gosh, early Christians would never fall for that one! It doesn't look anything like correct [todays] Christianity!'

"God will save his fallen angels and their broken wings He'll mend."

Posts 3703
Milkman | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Sep 19 2014 12:06 PM

I thought that was the book. Right now I'm going through Desilva's Introducing the apocrypha with a strong leaning toward two volumes in the Come And See books.

Denise:

Lone prairie?  We wish! (The Eurovan is specially equipped to slow down on hills around here.)

The volume was the one Ken mentioned: https://www.logos.com/product/15718/jewish-literature-between-the-bible-and-the-mishnah 

It's especially useful where a writing clearly is in 'pieces' .... slowly incrementing over time (best example Sibylline Oracles).  The latter is an excellent example of modern judgment overlaying ancient judgment .... 'Gosh, early Christians would never fall for that one! It doesn't look anything like correct [todays] Christianity!'

mm.

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