I Think We Are at THAT Point

I would love to see more training resources as well, but I don't feels as though they've left us in the lurch.

The summary post of features with details on each one is nice: https://community.logos.com/forums/p/92701/643169.aspx#643169

We have QuickStart for Logos Bible Software v. 6 built right into the Logos platform.

Many of the resources that trained us on L4 and L5 are still valid for L6. Each iteration has been an extension of the prior, so you can still learn a lot about L6 if you're new to the software and watch an L4 training video.

Don't get me wrong--I agree with you about the need for refinement. There is a lot of raw material there, and I hope the resources go into refining it so that every new feature becomes world class on its own.

I do agree that one department of Logos that leaves a lot to be desired is the lack of training.  I have never really seen a software with as little training as Logos.  At least free training anyway.  I shouldn't have to buy a manual it should come with the program.

Ok, gripe over.  Staying positive!

Buying Logos is a little like buying a jet liner, getting in and fiddling  with a few knobs and buttons and the engines suddenly roar to life!  You think, "Wow!  I can run this thing!" You drive it up and down the runway a few times (rarely crashing) and get it up to 100 MPH.  Wheeeee!  Then you want to fly to Canberra and discover you may need to learn a few things first.  

Logos does a lot out of the box for the raw beginner.  And there is a lot of help for those folks. But it does a lot more that beginner-ish stuff too.  We jealously watch the pros's do incredible aerobatics with just a few Hebrew grammar tricks, a lexicon and some label searches using fancy "{[(*)]}'s" and stuff., and we want to know how to do it too.  Some of us buy Camp Logos, and some of us just stick our nose down deep in the computer's innards and figure it out the hard way.

I think that going from 0-60 isn't so hard.  Lots of help is available.  Going from 60-140 is kind of a bleak landscape of help.  Then from 140-200 there is some very good, though spotty help--it;s kind of specialized.  From 200 and up...you are mostly on your own, but let me warn you this bird can go 700 MPH.  

I've had it up to 35 already.   

Ever try too learn Photoshop?  There are a gazillion youtube videos and books and courses.  But if you want to really use its potential you have to just get in there and use it a lot. If you don't have that level of interest, there is always Microsoft paint, or a pencil and paper.

I suggest with Logos that you overbuy just a little.  Then you won't be frustrated by what you can't do.  Then when you want more, buy more.  There is no silver bullet that just downloads all that ability into your head in a day or week or month or year.

I think it's important to note that users will be limited in some cases no matter how much Logos teaches them how to use their software. For example in exploring the original languages and using all the tools to do so, I am familiar with doing; asking the right questions and drawing the right conclusions is something I'm still learning. 

Anthony said:

For example in exploring the original languages and using all the tools to do so, I am familiar with doing; asking the right questions and drawing the right conclusions is something I'm still learning. 

That is where the Holy Spirit and seminary (or other focused schools) come in. Logos will not infuse your mind with what you need to learn, however, it will help you in learning what needs to be infused in you. [:)]

My thoughts

Rich DeRuiter said:

David Taylor Jr said:

 I would just like to see a manual.

Bob has said in the past they they are not likely to ever produce a written manual. The reason, as I remember it, is too few people read manuals anymore to justify the cost to produce it.

(I wouldn't know how to begin to corroborate nor refute that assumption.)

Yeah I know Bob's position.  And I actually agree with him, I am the exception to the rule.  I used to do tech support for Apple, I can guarantee you 90% of people do not read the manuals! lol  I'm just a tech junkie and like to know how everything works.

I am to software what my dad is to cars.

Rich DeRuiter said:

David Taylor Jr said:

 I would just like to see a manual.

Bob has said in the past they they are not likely to ever produce a written manual. The reason, as I remember it, is too few people read manuals anymore to justify the cost to produce it.

(I wouldn't know how to begin to corroborate nor refute that assumption.)

Even Morris Proctor produces Logos print manuals...and sells them.  I would assume there is a market for them.  And I would also assume that this is the reason why you see no free manual in Logos.  Having said that, I wish an on line manual would be included as part of the base price.  If this was done, I would think it is possible that the price for the manual could be greatly reduced as the amount of people receiving base packages and thus  the manual, would be greater

MP's training is good. John from learnlogos.com does  good job. Perhaps the training I like the most is that which has been produced over the years by people like Mark Barnes. His material is usually very practical and easy to follow. I think we will probably see those type of videos coming in the near future.  

Rich DeRuiter said:

SineNomine said:

Base packages should include training videos and other materials. Period.

They do include training materials. Other materials are accessible (to everyone) on-line.

Those aren't really training materials. Those are introductory materials. Verbum Practicum is a good example of a collection of training materials.

I have no problem in principle with paying for training, and if I spend hundreds (or more) on a base package (or several of them), I'd appreciate paid-level training materials. So would lots of other people.

Doc B said:

With L6, we have a rather long list of new features, and very little material from Logos with which to work. I assume this body of material will grow a bit over the next few months. But I would love to see it grow faster and more than it has in the past, and not leave the training up to MP or kind volunteer lay-users.

I know that there's a team in Logos that are actively working on creating short Logos 6 training videos, similar to the ones that have already been released, but covering a much wider selection of features.

But like you, I'd love to see even more. My dream would be a MobileEd training resource. Like this one, but that comes free with base packages, and covers more topics and is more in-depth. It would probably need 16 hours, rather than 7. That's only a dream though. Sadly, I don't think it's likely in the short term.

That said, it doesn't matter if we don't use all the software. I intend only to use about 75% of the functionality, because that's all I need to do my ministry well. A decent chunk of that 75% didn't exist until last week, and some of the 25% I won't use has been there since L4 days.

That said, I'm already looking forward to L7 giving me even more things I didn't know I needed [:)].

Learnlogos.com has lots of training, and I mean lots of training.

Proctors does a lot too. 

Do they charge for their work? Yes, they do. I do too for mine.

Jim Wait said:

I just received a manual from Morris Proctor that covers everything in Logos 6 in a way that is very understandable and thorough.  The price of this manual is 14.95.  It is available from MPSeminars.com.  In my opinion Morris is one of the best teachers I have ever experienced in any field. This manual is 150 pages long.  I doubt that the 14.95 even covers the cost of this great production.

What could a Christian possibly desire more than Logos?  Thank you LOGOS.  Keep growing and changing and producing the greatest tool on earth.

Thank you Morris Proctor..

Can you shed light on how detailed the manual is? I have the Logos 5 manuals (two of them I believe) and I was pretty happy with them. For example, how detailed is it on the Parallel Gospel Reader? 

I've found two places that talk about it, here and here, and neither offered examples such as different layouts options you can use in the resource. So I'm stuck experimenting, hoping I am utilizing everything in a timely manner. Does the Morris Proctor Manual state more than the two links I provided? 

Nathan Parker said:

I purchased Morris Proctor's "What's New in Logos 6" manual as well as pre-ordered John Fallahee's Logos 6 Training Bundle.

Both Morris and John are excellent trainers. I have learned so much from both of them.

Sure it involves investing a little time and money into their materials (except for John's free live webinars), but it's so worth it. I feel far more confident with Logos with two great trainers keeping me up-to-speed.

I just wish MP's books were available in Logos Format or even PDF (If they already are please tell me!)

Logos has easily become a bit feature heavy. I do think training and manuals have there place. One of the really great thing is that Logos so neatly puts the resources most of us need to have right up front. Back when L4 came out, I was immediately impressed at how readily contextual exegesis was placed at one's fingertips.It was very close to what I had always thought was an ideal way to study.

Definitely not a gender thing. I'd love to see a manual for Logos.

Bob Pritchett said:

I'll take this as a reminder to work on the problem again, and try to get it resolved. But please realize that this (and all books whose IDs start 'GS_') is one of the few exceptions to our plan for rich tagging. If there are other books that are bothering you, please email me directly at bob@faithlife.com and I'll see if we can get them higher on the maintenance list.

Thank you for this post, Bob. I mostly use Logos for theology books and I have to say... my recent readings have come across a horrifically large amount of missing links to resources I already own in Logos. For example, in Thomas Oden's 3 vol. Systematic Theology, which is useful mostly for its many references--hardly any of them go anywhere. I don't think I've yet found a working link in any book to Harnack's History of Dogma--and that's a pretty big deal for historical theology. For a more recent work, the Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church does not provide working links to either J.N.D. Kelly's Early Christian Doctrines or Early Christian Creeds. I just acquired all three of those works as part of L6 Reformed Gold, and it's a little disappointing that those links are lacking. 

Anyway, I don't know if you'll catch this in this thread or not--it's rather off topic--but I intend to write more about this once the Logos 6 rush and my own schedule quiet down. That Logos does not function all that well in this area at this point in time is a let-down, but I'm encouraged by your statement that you have plans to work on it.

Doc B said:

But I think there is also a place for more extensive training videos (and other media) from Faithlife itself, whether on Youtube or some other channel. (BTW, the Quickstart videos in L6 are nice, but working in the software while watching a video is hard unless you have dual monitors, and I don't.) Short tutorials on how to do little things are helpful. Mo's Monday how-to tips are always helpful, but we need more of those. One every day brings to mind an old Kool n the Gang song from the late 70s. (My Evernote has a notebook full of clippings from those MP posts, and I refer to them often.)

I think there are two sets of topics here: the QuickStart videos were great for those of us upgrading, but I suspect the bigger issue is that of getting up to speed for new users (and was for me). I know some products and services I've bought over the past couple of years have emails that automatically get sent out to new users over a couple of weeks introducing them to features of the software in bite-sized chunks. New users to Logos need to be introduced to things like:

• Navigating the library
• Sorting out their preferred Bible
• Displaying things like Reverse Interlinears
• Prioritising resources
• Setting up collections
• Using the Guides
• Using Notes, Highlighting and Visual Filters
• Searching
• Setting up Reading Plans
•  And a whole lot of other things. 

I don't think manuals are much help - a tiny proportion of users ever looked at them when I produced software, and virtually nobody phoning for support had bothered checking the manual first: I would prefer Logos to focus its people on producing/updating content and developing the software than writing manuals (and I suspect they'd rather be doing that as well). I think a regular feed of bite-sized chunks (which could include videos, although I'm not wild about them) would be the best way of getting new users up to speed. Regular instructional emails from Logos in the first few weeks as customers would also give them a feeling that Logos cared, as well as presenting Logos with some marketing opportunities to sell additional content. 

Jannie, thank you for attending to this. If you just open the NET Notes and start scrolling, you will come across a number of issues.

Looking at note 10 for Gen. 1:2, I personally think that there should be links to the NRSV and NEB versions of the verse. There are many places where NET makes a specific reference to a particular translation of a verse, but when one hovers over the verse, the user gets a pop-up of their preferred Bible instead. Links should always follow the context of the discussion. The current hyperlinks that inform users that NRSV means New Revised Standard Version and NEB means New English Bible should also provide the verse under discussion from each translation.

In note 20 for Gen. 1:5, it would be awesome if the reference to Enuma Elish had a link to at least one pertinent example. I realize that the NET committee didn't specify a reference, but if Logos provided a reference here, it would be a perfect example of Logos's superiority over other media.

In note 23 for Gen. 1:6, there is no link indicating what (AnBib) refers to. Even if Logos doesn't have it at present, if a user wants to track down the reference, there is no clue as where to begin. Is it Anchor Bible? Something else?

In note 31 in Gen. 1:11, there is a reference to the Samaritan Pentateuch. This should have a hyperlink to the relevant verse in the SP, which I know Logos has.

In note 44 in Gen. 1:22, there is no indication what (OBT) refers to.

In note 51 in Gen. 1:26, the references to MT and Syriac could have links similar to the ones suggested in Gen. 1:2 above.

In note 61, there is no link to the WBC note that is referenced. This is the kind of missing link to which I am most referring.

In note 9 in Gen. 2:4, there is no pop-up explaining what CTJ is. There should be, and if it is available in Logos the link should go there.

In note 11 in Gen. 2:4, there are numerous resources mentioned, none of which has a link. Perhaps none are in Logos, but they should be. I am a huge advocate of Logos making a concerted effort to acquire resources that are used a references in resources already in Logos, particularly "trunk" resources such a NET. Also, as I suggested about 3 years ago, I think it would be very helpful and forward thinking if Logos created links even for resources that it doesn't have in its stable. That way, when those resources are acquired, the links will "go live" and users will get immediate utility rather than having to wait years, most likely, for a retrofit.

In note 31 in Gen. 2:9, there is no pop-up explaining what (SHR) means.

In note 32 in Gen. 2:9, there is no link to the referenced note in WBC, which can and should be linked. Also, just to reiterate previous requests, I strongly advocate that Logos acquire Vestus Testamentum and Novum Testamentum (and their supplements), both of which are cited multiple thousands of times in Logos.

In note 34 in Gen. 2:10, there is no hyperlink to Jubilees...which is frankly shocking. This should be virtually automatic.

So, that's the first two chapters of Genesis. These are the kinds of concerns I have. The links to WBC and Jubilees are major oversights, and the other things I mention would greatly enhance the utility for users. If a pop-up can save a user from having to "physically" open a referenced resource, it should be included. Even if a pop-up isn't sufficient, there should be a link to the mentioned resource so that users don't have to go through a bunch of rigmarole to open the resource.

Thanks again for your attention.

Alas, maybe not. I thought I distinctly remembered it being offered as a PrePub a few years back.