The Heart of an Ignorant Logos 6 User

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Cynthia in Florida | Forum Activity | Posted: Sun, Nov 30 2014 6:12 AM

I feel I must share something here that has been, I believe, somewhat forgotten.  Please, hear this as information, not criticism.  Know that my heart is to explain how an average, "joe schmo" user thinks.

Take a look at the number next to my name.  It is something like 140 posts.

I come on this board because I am an average user who has some basic knowledge of computers.  I just want to turn on my computer and have it work.  I don't understand code, and words like "boolean operators" were foreign to me until I started using Logos 4.

While I can appreciate the wealth of knowledge some of you have, and may even be a little green with envy, I beg you all to remember that there are some of us who just don't understand the technical side of things; we simply are trying to figure out why something isn't working.

I have seen frustrated advanced posters state that "well, if you just went over to wiki and ..."  Do you know I didn't even KNOW there was a Logos Wiki until last year?  And...quite frankly, I STILL can't figure out the Faithlife website and how it all works, between groups and files and...  More and more I witness advanced posters state things that are obvious to them, but not necessarily to "us."  I'm so nervous to ask anything further, so I search and search to find what they are talking about.

Like I said, I'm just an average girl, trying to serve my Savior by serving others through an in depth Bible Study class.  So I beg you, please be kind to those of us who are squeaking by with limited knowledge. 

You were there one day too...

Cynthia

Romans 8:28-38

Posts 58
Kathy Brasby | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 30 2014 6:48 AM

Cynthia, I relate so well! I continue to search and learn how to use LOGOS but I just discovered how to use Favorites and I'm still trying to get ideas on how to use Clippings. I know how to clip but would love ideas on why to clip. (for example) Very good post. Thanks for stepping out. 

Posts 425
Mary-Ellen | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 30 2014 7:06 AM

Hang in there, Cynthia (and everyone else here who sees themselves in Cynthia's post).  You are not alone in feeling sometimes overwhelmed with the wealth of resources, tools and sheer power of Logos 6.  You represent the majority of users. 

And you will find that the majority of advanced users here in the forums are very gracious, kind and extremely generous with their time, expertise and desire to serve.  Fear not, and let the occasional unthinking comment (from someone whose heart is in the right place--or they wouldn't be here posting in the first place--but who is probably having stresses completely unrelated to the question at hand) roll right off your back and carry on.

I love your commitment to using the best tools available to "go and make disciples" even when there are obstacles to be faced and overcome.  What you are doing has eternal worth.  You go, girl!

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Rich DeRuiter | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 30 2014 7:36 AM

Cynthia in Florida:
I have seen frustrated advanced posters state that "well, if you just went over to wiki and ..."  Do you know I didn't even KNOW there was a Logos Wiki until last year?

While I don't know if you are thinking of a specific instance where someone was frustrated, please don't take a terse, or brief comment as an expression of frustration. Sometimes we "advanced posters" just want to 'cut to the chase' and in this case help you learn how to find the answers to your own questions. In mediums such as this one may (and folks sometimes do) take something in a way it wasn't intended.

As to what it's like to use Logos as an average "joe schmo," those questions and frustrations are welcome here. I hope that is always the case. Logos is a very powerful program and some of its advanced features require advanced training. One of the reason the wiki exists is to help users get answers to common questions. I find myself there often to learn or remember how to do something I don't often need to do.

Cynthia in Florida:
More and more I witness advanced posters state things that are obvious to them, but not necessarily to "us."  I'm so nervous to ask anything further, so I search and search to find what they are talking about.

As one who posts here a lot, I've had the other thing happen to, where I've made a step by step suggestion and gotten a response like "Hey! I'm not stupid. I know how to do that."  It's not always easy to know how to help someone you've not met. But this is a good reminder to us MVP's at least, to not assume someone knows what we're talking about, just because we know the lingo.

Please don't be intimidated by us. Most of us are actually nice people who really enjoy helping people who are trying to figure out something in Logos. If you don't know what something means, just ask. Now, there are some folks on these forums who are not as accommodating. Frankly, there are some I simply don't interact with at all any more, or only interact with on a minimal basis. Momma always told me there would be people who won't like me; sometimes I find the evidence of that. No big deal. I know Someone whose love more than makes up for that.

If someone posts something that makes you feel intimidated, disrespected, humiliated, etc., say so in a follow-up post. It may be a simple misunderstanding on your part, or simply a poor choice of words on the part of the person posting. Personally, I don't get frustrated with ignorance (not knowing) nearly as much as I get frustrated with arrogance.

I hope I wrote this in a way that makes sense to you, and that you find helpful. If not, let me know what I didn't fully understand, or what I said that made you feel less than welcome here. You're just the sort of person I like helping. I hope that I can write in a way that makes you know that; if I don't or didn't, I want to know that too.

 Help links: WIKI;  Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)

Posts 13420
Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 30 2014 7:55 AM

Cynthia in Florida:
I'm so nervous to ask anything further, so I search and search to find what they are talking about.

Don't be nervous Smile. Keep asking. That's how most 'advanced' people got to where they are — by asking 'dumb' questions from those who knew more than they!

I teach a lot, and it's always my responsibility to ensure those listening understand. If they don't, I can't blame them. It's my job to ensure they can understand, by teaching at an appropriate level and in an engaging way. The same is true here. It's the responsibility of the person answering the question to make sure they do so in a helpful way. (Though those asking questions can help them do that, of course.)

That said, it's not always easy to remember the experience levels of everyone who posts on the forum. If we get it wrong one way, it can be patronising. If we get it wrong the other way, it can seem curt. There are also different types of knowledge. Some people know a lot about Bible study, but little about computers. Some are technically very competent, but are just starting out in Bible study. And on many threads, different people with different levels of experience all chime in — which is great to see, but it can make it hard to respond appropriately to everyone.

Because it's hard, those answering will often get the 'level' wrong. I'm sorry when I do that. Please don't take it personally when it happens, but don't be silent, either. A simple "Thanks, but could you explain exactly how to do X", helps us know we're not being sufficiently clear, and the extra answer that will undoubtedly follow will surely help others, too.

Finally, let me add that I learn most about Logos when I'm trying to answer other people's questions. I've lost count of the number of times I've answered a question, and weeks or months later needed to do something very similar myself. I'm always grateful when that happens, because it proves there's a virtuous circle here on the forums.

Posts 4158
abondservant | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 30 2014 8:01 AM

effort is made to help the new user, and to communicate on their level. 

We have all been there and some of us are still learning new things daily through our time on the forum. 

However, when you notice frustration is when one must answer the same question over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over. 

I don't know specifically what thread or situation you're talking about. I've been on vacation for the past week and haven't been very active on the forums. So if that doesn't apply to your specific circumstance then apologies. However as a good rule of thumb before posting and to keep the ire of others down (not only on this forum, but on the internet in general), I suggest the following:

1. Search the forum - no don't use the built in forum search tool, use google

2. Failing that, check the Wiki. You must be logged in to the wiki (using your normal logos credentials) to be able to use the wiki. 

3. Failing that, give some indication in your post that you've tried looking, and the other threads didn't seem to give any indication of a solution. Showing your search terms may help us improve your searching, as well. 

4. Try to make the post title catchy to draw in a wider audience. Avoid using drama as that will not be helpful to you, may cause an argument which will delay your answer. Examples of this are "Logos cheated me". I assure you they did not now, nor ever cheat you. They go out of their way to help. This just makes people that know better feel irritated and defensive. A better way would be "Help me understand why my Library shows 0 titles" (when you know you have 5000). 

5. Be clear and concise in the body of your post, yet don't leave out important detail. This is an art, that is easily picked up. If its a software glitch, don't ask "why my software broke". We need to know as concisely as possible the symptoms: "I bought Reformed Portfolio and my library shows I have 0 books". Then include the software version which you can learn by clicking the question mark within Logos, then clicking "about logos. My current build is "6.0.1.0032".

6. try to give information about the circumstances related to the issue at hand. "I noticed my internet isn't working on that computer" or "I turned it off while it was indexing, is that bad?".  Most important for a glitch like that would be the Log files. There are links that show how, but I don't remember their location. However for PC, hold ctrl while starting logos. Then browse to your my documents folder, logos logs, and zip up the files within, and upload the files to the forum. 

7. List steps you've taken to try to fix the issue if any. "after I rebooted my computer, I randomly started deleting files in my logos installation folder" (or whatever more realistic steps someone might have taken might be, most people don't do this unless specifically told, and that may be something you are told to do in the previous situation as a DB may be corrupt). 

8. Be courteous. Most people are most of the time, but you'll note that part of this is coming back to tell us its fixed and saying thank you. Most people with low post counts don't tend to come back and respond with courtesy. This not only makes us feel warm and fuzzy for participating in a sometimes thankless voluntary position, but it lets us know what specifically helped, so we can better help someone with that new found knowledge in the future. 

With few exceptions (generally the starred ones - the MVPS, and Logos employees) we don't all know everything about Logos, but we do have a strong set of troubleshooting skills.  :)

For instance when a new product is launched (and this is as much a nomenclature issue as anything), there are hundreds of threads over the initial few weeks asking why they just bought L5, and weren't told about L6, and why would logos prevent them from getting L6, they like their current resources and don't want to lose them etc. I have made that exact post before, so don't think I'm singling anyone out, I'm lumping myself in. We were all new once. But those posts tend to be made without having searched the forum, read other related posts and so forth. They are an emotional post that was made while feeling left out, and short changed when really neither applies to you. You just don't know it yet. 

In the end, this forum is one of the kindest English language forums I've ever been part of. 

I was once a part of a WIFI related forum. Many of the contributors were engineers or higher level. Any time someone posted something that demonstrated their lack of due diligence they were pounced upon and verbally eviscerated. Here at worst you see peoples frustration. All in all its a very friendly forum when you're dealing with technical issues. Alot of this has to do with the caliber of the MVP's that are here I think. They really seem to set the tone. 

L2 lvl4 (...) WORDsearch, L9

Posts 11433
DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 30 2014 8:04 AM

I'd give a fairly decent bet  (not gambling), that 99% of Logos users are in this same boat.  I base my bet on just watching how many people can answer a question on what appears to be a fairly common Logos feature.  Accurately.  Basically Dave and Graham.

I also think most people don't want to embarrass themselves, raising their hand.  I don't.  I rarely ask questions about a feature.  If I can't figure it out, then so be it.  Life's too short.  I'll spend several days researching, to avoid asking on any of my software.

I also don't recommend Logos to my friends (not being disloyal!!).  But, I just know what's going to happen next, and then they'll blame me.  In the market research survey world, 'recommending' is always the key question ... it places your reputation on the line.

"God will save his fallen angels and their broken wings He'll mend."

Posts 13420
Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 30 2014 8:04 AM

Kathy Brasby:
I know how to clip but would love ideas on why to clip.

Welcome, Kathy!

I didn't want your question to get lost in amongst answers to Cynthia. I think of clippings like a scrapbook. I put things there that I might want to use again in the future, but I'm worried I'll never find when I need them. That might be quotes for an essay or article that I'm writing at the moment. Or it might be a great illustration or explanation I want to file away for when I preach on that topic far into the future.

Because I can create many clippings documents with different themes, and because clippings documents show up in "My Content" searches, I'm quite likely to come across my clippings when I need them in the future.

That's why I use clippings - to make sure I 'keep' everything useful that I find, so that I can find it again when I need it.

Posts 425
Mary-Ellen | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 30 2014 8:09 AM

Building on Mark's suggestions re Clippings -- That's where I start when I'm collecting info at the very beginning a research project, when I don't have it well-defined enough to know how I'll eventually want to organize my thoughts.  You can think of it as a stack of index cards.

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Cynthia in Florida | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 30 2014 8:19 AM

Rich DeRuiter:

Cynthia in Florida:
I have seen frustrated advanced posters state that "well, if you just went over to wiki and ..."  Do you know I didn't even KNOW there was a Logos Wiki until last year?

While I don't know if you are thinking of a specific instance where someone was frustrated, please don't take a terse, or brief comment as an expression of frustration. Sometimes we "advanced posters" just want to 'cut to the chase' and in this case help you learn how to find the answers to your own questions. In mediums such as this one may (and folks sometimes do) take something in a way it wasn't intended.

As to what it's like to use Logos as an average "joe schmo," those questions and frustrations are welcome here. I hope that is always the case. Logos is a very powerful program and some of its advanced features require advanced training. One of the reason the wiki exists is to help users get answers to common questions. I find myself there often to learn or remember how to do something I don't often need to do.

Cynthia in Florida:
More and more I witness advanced posters state things that are obvious to them, but not necessarily to "us."  I'm so nervous to ask anything further, so I search and search to find what they are talking about.

As one who posts here a lot, I've had the other thing happen to, where I've made a step by step suggestion and gotten a response like "Hey! I'm not stupid. I know how to do that."  It's not always easy to know how to help someone you've not met. But this is a good reminder to us MVP's at least, to not assume someone knows what we're talking about, just because we know the lingo.

Please don't be intimidated by us. Most of us are actually nice people who really enjoy helping people who are trying to figure out something in Logos. If you don't know what something means, just ask. Now, there are some folks on these forums who are not as accommodating. Frankly, there are some I simply don't interact with at all any more, or only interact with on a minimal basis. Momma always told me there would be people who won't like me; sometimes I find the evidence of that. No big deal. I know Someone whose love more than makes up for that.

If someone posts something that makes you feel intimidated, disrespected, humiliated, etc., say so in a follow-up post. It may be a simple misunderstanding on your part, or simply a poor choice of words on the part of the person posting. Personally, I don't get frustrated with ignorance (not knowing) nearly as much as I get frustrated with arrogance.

I hope I wrote this in a way that makes sense to you, and that you find helpful. If not, let me know what I didn't fully understand, or what I said that made you feel less than welcome here. You're just the sort of person I like helping. I hope that I can write in a way that makes you know that; if I don't or didn't, I want to know that too.

Hello Rich:

Thank you for your post. 

The question asked was if I was speaking of a specific instance.  My short answer is "no."  However, collectively I am where I am now...posting the original comment.

I in NO WAY meant to imply that the more advanced posters were rude.  Let me re-state that...I HAVE NEVER EVER received a post from anyone being rude to me personally.  I have received TONS of help from the kindest of people. Since the Logos 6 launch, I have been forced to be on the board more because, well, it hasn't work correctly for me since day one, and that is a story in another post.  I have had several people try to help me, and for that I am very thankful.

However, I don't know if it is because of the L6 launch, and then server crash, or just too much turkey and stuffing, but I am noticing a ton of very technical comments, and some interspersed with frustration, or as we call it in my home "getting punchy", so I just thought I would go out on a limb and post a friendly reminder on behalf of the average user.

My favorite line you wrote is that you don't get frustrated with ignorance nearly as much as arrogance.  Thank you, as that tends to be me~ :)

Cynthia

Romans 8:28-38

Posts 812
Cynthia in Florida | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 30 2014 8:32 AM

abondservant:

effort is made to help the new user, and to communicate on their level. 

We have all been there and some of us are still learning new things daily through our time on the forum. 

However, when you notice frustration is when one must answer the same question over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over. 

I don't know specifically what thread or situation you're talking about. I've been on vacation for the past week and haven't been very active on the forums. So if that doesn't apply to your specific circumstance then apologies. However as a good rule of thumb before posting and to keep the ire of others down (not only on this forum, but on the internet in general), I suggest the following:

1. Search the forum - no don't use the built in forum search tool, use google

2. Failing that, check the Wiki. You must be logged in to the wiki (using your normal logos credentials) to be able to use the wiki. 

3. Failing that, give some indication in your post that you've tried looking, and the other threads didn't seem to give any indication of a solution. Showing your search terms may help us improve your searching, as well. 

4. Try to make the post title catchy to draw in a wider audience. Avoid using drama as that will not be helpful to you, may cause an argument which will delay your answer. Examples of this are "Logos cheated me". I assure you they did not now, nor ever cheat you. They go out of their way to help. This just makes people that know better feel irritated and defensive. A better way would be "Help me understand why my Library shows 0 titles" (when you know you have 5000). 

5. Be clear and concise in the body of your post, yet don't leave out important detail. This is an art, that is easily picked up. If its a software glitch, don't ask "why my software broke". We need to know as concisely as possible the symptoms: "I bought Reformed Portfolio and my library shows I have 0 books". Then include the software version which you can learn by clicking the question mark within Logos, then clicking "about logos. My current build is "6.0.1.0032".

6. try to give information about the circumstances related to the issue at hand. "I noticed my internet isn't working on that computer" or "I turned it off while it was indexing, is that bad?".  Most important for a glitch like that would be the Log files. There are links that show how, but I don't remember their location. However for PC, hold ctrl while starting logos. Then browse to your my documents folder, logos logs, and zip up the files within, and upload the files to the forum. 

7. List steps you've taken to try to fix the issue if any. "after I rebooted my computer, I randomly started deleting files in my logos installation folder" (or whatever more realistic steps someone might have taken might be, most people don't do this unless specifically told, and that may be something you are told to do in the previous situation as a DB may be corrupt). 

8. Be courteous. Most people are most of the time, but you'll note that part of this is coming back to tell us its fixed and saying thank you. Most people with low post counts don't tend to come back and respond with courtesy. This not only makes us feel warm and fuzzy for participating in a sometimes thankless voluntary position, but it lets us know what specifically helped, so we can better help someone with that new found knowledge in the future. 

With few exceptions (generally the starred ones - the MVPS, and Logos employees) we don't all know everything about Logos, but we do have a strong set of troubleshooting skills.  :)

For instance when a new product is launched (and this is as much a nomenclature issue as anything), there are hundreds of threads over the initial few weeks asking why they just bought L5, and weren't told about L6, and why would logos prevent them from getting L6, they like their current resources and don't want to lose them etc. I have made that exact post before, so don't think I'm singling anyone out, I'm lumping myself in. We were all new once. But those posts tend to be made without having searched the forum, read other related posts and so forth. They are an emotional post that was made while feeling left out, and short changed when really neither applies to you. You just don't know it yet. 

In the end, this forum is one of the kindest English language forums I've ever been part of. 

I was once a part of a WIFI related forum. Many of the contributors were engineers or higher level. Any time someone posted something that demonstrated their lack of due diligence they were pounced upon and verbally eviscerated. Here at worst you see peoples frustration. All in all its a very friendly forum when you're dealing with technical issues. Alot of this has to do with the caliber of the MVP's that are here I think. They really seem to set the tone. 

First:  You personally have always been so wonderfully helpful to me.  Thanks.

Second:  THANK YOU FOR THE SUGGESTION ABOUT GOOGLE SEARCH (Yes, I'm shouting (with joy!!).  I DO search for help before asking a question, and half the time wind up with searches on the Logos board that have NOTHING to do with what I need.  I will do it through Google for now on.  Never heard that one before, so THANK YOU!!!

Third:  Wiki has become my new friend here since "discovering it" last year.  I even made a couple of Personal Books with it just so I can look there first!

Fourth:  Your #5-#7 suggestions are INDEED an art.  I am trying to learn it, so that is where I, and other newbies, need lots of grace.

Fifth:  I am sad you even have to mention number 8.  I couldn't imagine NOT thanking those who help.  I even told someone who helped me that I was so happy I could kiss him! LOL

Finally, in the end I too agree this is a very kind forum.  I am not saying it's not and in no way meant to imply it isn't. I'm just saying to remember the little guys with very little knowledge is looking at a Bugatti, knowing it is a Bugatti, and is trying to figure out how to get past taking the foot off the brake. :)

Blessings to you and yours,

Cynthia

Cynthia

Romans 8:28-38

Posts 5573
Forum MVP
Rich DeRuiter | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 30 2014 8:33 AM

Cynthia in Florida:
My favorite line you wrote is that you don't get frustrated with ignorance nearly as much as arrogance.  Thank you, as that tends to be me~ :)

You're welcome (I assume you mean you tend toward ignorance not arrogance Smile). I think that speaks for more than one of us on these forums.

Cynthia in Florida:
However, I don't know if it is because of the L6 launch, and then server crash, or just too much turkey and stuffing, but I am noticing a ton of very technical comments, and some interspersed with frustration, or as we call it in my home "getting punchy", so I just thought I would go out on a limb and post a friendly reminder on behalf of the average user.

Yes, there were some technical problems, especially with the Mac roll-out that required some technical work-arounds and some technical solutions. There was also a lot of frustration expressed all around as this was very, very messy and we weren't sure where the all the causes for the problems were.

On the other hand, when there is a known issue, with some steps already laid out, and when people don't follow them (after being directed to do so), or they say they did when they didn't, and then begin bashing Logos, or forum posters, it's frustrating for those trying to help. Sometimes that frustration also comes out toward people for whom it not ought to be directed. Sorry.

 Help links: WIKI;  Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)

Posts 4158
abondservant | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 30 2014 8:54 AM

Cynthia in Florida:

abondservant:

effort is made to help the new user, and to communicate on their level. 

We have all been there and some of us are still learning new things daily through our time on the forum. 

However, when you notice frustration is when one must answer the same question over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over. 

I don't know specifically what thread or situation you're talking about. I've been on vacation for the past week and haven't been very active on the forums. So if that doesn't apply to your specific circumstance then apologies. However as a good rule of thumb before posting and to keep the ire of others down (not only on this forum, but on the internet in general), I suggest the following:

1. Search the forum - no don't use the built in forum search tool, use google

2. Failing that, check the Wiki. You must be logged in to the wiki (using your normal logos credentials) to be able to use the wiki. 

3. Failing that, give some indication in your post that you've tried looking, and the other threads didn't seem to give any indication of a solution. Showing your search terms may help us improve your searching, as well. 

4. Try to make the post title catchy to draw in a wider audience. Avoid using drama as that will not be helpful to you, may cause an argument which will delay your answer. Examples of this are "Logos cheated me". I assure you they did not now, nor ever cheat you. They go out of their way to help. This just makes people that know better feel irritated and defensive. A better way would be "Help me understand why my Library shows 0 titles" (when you know you have 5000). 

5. Be clear and concise in the body of your post, yet don't leave out important detail. This is an art, that is easily picked up. If its a software glitch, don't ask "why my software broke". We need to know as concisely as possible the symptoms: "I bought Reformed Portfolio and my library shows I have 0 books". Then include the software version which you can learn by clicking the question mark within Logos, then clicking "about logos. My current build is "6.0.1.0032".

6. try to give information about the circumstances related to the issue at hand. "I noticed my internet isn't working on that computer" or "I turned it off while it was indexing, is that bad?".  Most important for a glitch like that would be the Log files. There are links that show how, but I don't remember their location. However for PC, hold ctrl while starting logos. Then browse to your my documents folder, logos logs, and zip up the files within, and upload the files to the forum. 

7. List steps you've taken to try to fix the issue if any. "after I rebooted my computer, I randomly started deleting files in my logos installation folder" (or whatever more realistic steps someone might have taken might be, most people don't do this unless specifically told, and that may be something you are told to do in the previous situation as a DB may be corrupt). 

8. Be courteous. Most people are most of the time, but you'll note that part of this is coming back to tell us its fixed and saying thank you. Most people with low post counts don't tend to come back and respond with courtesy. This not only makes us feel warm and fuzzy for participating in a sometimes thankless voluntary position, but it lets us know what specifically helped, so we can better help someone with that new found knowledge in the future. 

With few exceptions (generally the starred ones - the MVPS, and Logos employees) we don't all know everything about Logos, but we do have a strong set of troubleshooting skills.  :)

For instance when a new product is launched (and this is as much a nomenclature issue as anything), there are hundreds of threads over the initial few weeks asking why they just bought L5, and weren't told about L6, and why would logos prevent them from getting L6, they like their current resources and don't want to lose them etc. I have made that exact post before, so don't think I'm singling anyone out, I'm lumping myself in. We were all new once. But those posts tend to be made without having searched the forum, read other related posts and so forth. They are an emotional post that was made while feeling left out, and short changed when really neither applies to you. You just don't know it yet. 

In the end, this forum is one of the kindest English language forums I've ever been part of. 

I was once a part of a WIFI related forum. Many of the contributors were engineers or higher level. Any time someone posted something that demonstrated their lack of due diligence they were pounced upon and verbally eviscerated. Here at worst you see peoples frustration. All in all its a very friendly forum when you're dealing with technical issues. Alot of this has to do with the caliber of the MVP's that are here I think. They really seem to set the tone. 

First:  You personally have always been so wonderfully helpful to me.  Thanks.

Second:  THANK YOU FOR THE SUGGESTION ABOUT GOOGLE SEARCH (Yes, I'm shouting (with joy!!).  I DO search for help before asking a question, and half the time wind up with searches on the Logos board that have NOTHING to do with what I need.  I will do it through Google for now on.  Never heard that one before, so THANK YOU!!!

Third:  Wiki has become my new friend here since "discovering it" last year.  I even made a couple of Personal Books with it just so I can look there first!

Fourth:  Your #5-#7 suggestions are INDEED an art.  I am trying to learn it, so that is where I, and other newbies, need lots of grace.

Fifth:  I am sad you even have to mention number 8.  I couldn't imagine NOT thanking those who help.  I even told someone who helped me that I was so happy I could kiss him! LOL

Finally, in the end I too agree this is a very kind forum.  I am not saying it's not and in no way meant to imply it isn't. I'm just saying to remember the little guys with very little knowledge is looking at a Bugatti, knowing it is a Bugatti, and is trying to figure out how to get past taking the foot off the brake. :)

Blessings to you and yours,

Cynthia



Happy I could be of help :)

I agree as well, its the argumentative arrogant ones that are most annoying. :)

Having been (and sometimes still am) ignorant of somethings I appreciate it when people take the time to explain things.

L2 lvl4 (...) WORDsearch, L9

Posts 812
Cynthia in Florida | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 30 2014 9:03 AM

Mark Barnes:

Cynthia in Florida:
I'm so nervous to ask anything further, so I search and search to find what they are talking about.

Don't be nervous Smile. Keep asking. That's how most 'advanced' people got to where they are — by asking 'dumb' questions from those who knew more than they!

I teach a lot, and it's always my responsibility to ensure those listening understand. If they don't, I can't blame them. It's my job to ensure they can understand, by teaching at an appropriate level and in an engaging way. The same is true here. It's the responsibility of the person answering the question to make sure they do so in a helpful way. (Though those asking questions can help them do that, of course.)

That said, it's not always easy to remember the experience levels of everyone who posts on the forum. If we get it wrong one way, it can be patronising. If we get it wrong the other way, it can seem curt. There are also different types of knowledge. Some people know a lot about Bible study, but little about computers. Some are technically very competent, but are just starting out in Bible study. And on many threads, different people with different levels of experience all chime in — which is great to see, but it can make it hard to respond appropriately to everyone.

Because it's hard, those answering will often get the 'level' wrong. I'm sorry when I do that. Please don't take it personally when it happens, but don't be silent, either. A simple "Thanks, but could you explain exactly how to do X", helps us know we're not being sufficiently clear, and the extra answer that will undoubtedly follow will surely help others, too.

Finally, let me add that I learn most about Logos when I'm trying to answer other people's questions. I've lost count of the number of times I've answered a question, and weeks or months later needed to do something very similar myself. I'm always grateful when that happens, because it proves there's a virtuous circle here on the forums.

Hello Mark:

Practically everything I have learned in Logos is from your videos!  When you reply to a post, I hear your voice.

If you would just bear with me for one minute, let me share with you a little about me, and then how I overcome your challenge above about not know people's level of knowledge. It will serve two purposes:  one being you will get to know me a bit and second, explain how I deal with levels of knowledge.  I promise it will make sense.

I live in South Florida.  This state is very transient and there is a joke that there is no such thing as a true Floridian, as practically NO ONE is born here!  My husband is the ONLY PERSON I know who was actually born here (aside from my kids).  That means that people come and go, and in the churches here, we get a mish-mosh of denominations, levels of understanding, etc.  Few people can say "I grew up in that church" like some places in the country, or in your neck of the world.

The GREATEST challenge facing churches here in South Florida is level of depth.  We have a TON of very surface level--what some would call "seeker friendly" or "seeker driven" -- churches.  That being said, what I do here in South Florida, while not necessarily foreign in other places of the world or even the US, is extremely foreign here.  I teach and write inductive Bible Studies to a level that even most inductive students (even around the country) have never experienced.  That being said, let me tell you a little about my church.

I attend THAT church.  Yes, the church with 24,000 congregants who hit the news big in April of this year.  We are a healing church, as you can imagine.

We have hundreds of Bible studies available to us that we can attend, and my class is the ONLY women's Bible Study class in all our campuses (at least, last I checked) that teaches inductively at this level of depth.  I have women travel from various campuses, and even other churches just to attend the class.  Trust me, it isn't because I'm "all that," as a teacher, but because the ladies are desperate for the meat of the Word. 

The class is very large, with all levels of understanding.  I have ladies who just started with me this September, and some who have been with me for ten years.  One student actually said to me that I have quite a challenge because I have to teach the "Bible 101" Students with my "Bible AP Students." 

I tell you all this so that you know I understand how difficult it is to remember experience levels, or types of experience levels.  Here is how I personally preface every class I teach.  I basically say that I am going to teach the class as if no one has any knowledge at all.  Those who have no knowledge appreciate it, and those who have some knowledge are, as you said, happy to be reminded of the principle.  I then throw out things here and there for my more advanced students, TELLING the class beforehand that it is a concept hard to wrap our brain around.  It makes my advanced students think until their brains hurt a little, and it makes my new students a bit "green with envy" to know more,  as I stated I am of those who have so much knowledge.

So, maybe a work around for your dilemma is to preface your post with saying that you don't know their level of understanding, so you will start from the beginning?  I don't know...it's a suggestion.  One that has worked for me for many years now.

Again, I thank you very very very much for all your help.  I actually was going to message you and ask if you plan on having any L6 videos up?  There is quite a gap between L4 and L6.  Just a friend nudge for you to consider. 

Blessings to you and yours.

Cynthia

Romans 8:28-38

Posts 812
Cynthia in Florida | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 30 2014 9:12 AM

Mark Barnes:

Kathy Brasby:
I know how to clip but would love ideas on why to clip.

Welcome, Kathy!

I didn't want your question to get lost in amongst answers to Cynthia. I think of clippings like a scrapbook. I put things there that I might want to use again in the future, but I'm worried I'll never find when I need them. That might be quotes for an essay or article that I'm writing at the moment. Or it might be a great illustration or explanation I want to file away for when I preach on that topic far into the future.

Because I can create many clippings documents with different themes, and because clippings documents show up in "My Content" searches, I'm quite likely to come across my clippings when I need them in the future.

That's why I use clippings - to make sure I 'keep' everything useful that I find, so that I can find it again when I need it.

PERFECT explanation!  Especially as a scrapbooker, that makes so much sense to me.  I was excited where there was a post on how to use the 11 (I think 11) file types.  I haven't seen another post in the series, and so I was wondering about clippings.  Thanks!

Cynthia

Romans 8:28-38

Posts 4158
abondservant | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 30 2014 9:13 AM

Cynthia - now you know two :)

When Spain owned Florida the first time, that was in part my family. 

L2 lvl4 (...) WORDsearch, L9

Posts 812
Cynthia in Florida | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 30 2014 9:27 AM

Mary-Ellen:

Building on Mark's suggestions re Clippings -- That's where I start when I'm collecting info at the very beginning a research project, when I don't have it well-defined enough to know how I'll eventually want to organize my thoughts.  You can think of it as a stack of index cards.

Mary-Ellen:

Wanted to thank you too for your interjections.  Your encouraging words were just what I needed today, for an entirely different reason!

Be Blessed!

Cynthia

Romans 8:28-38

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 30 2014 10:14 AM

As a number of posters have stated, "Keep asking."  I would add that if some reply doesn't seem understandable to you, say so.  I'm sure someone, if not the poster to whom you are replying, will try to explain the seemingly inexplicable.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 352
Cynthia Tucker | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 30 2014 12:00 PM

Cynthia, keep asking and it will be given to you; keep searching and you will find; keep knocking and the door will be opened to you! Big Smile

But seriously, I can relate to your post. Not because anyone has been rude, but because some of the responses to questions are just way too technical for the average user. When I saw your post, I immediately thought of the thread about Milestone searches. It seems like it will be useful, but trying to understand it made my head hurt. And I'm very computer savvy, have a Master's degree, and pick up most things pretty quickly. But some things about Logos are just very unintuitive and not at all easy to understand even once explained. Regarding the Milestone searches, I plan to ask Morris Proctor when I see him in January. He breaks things down for the average user.

Author of the Chronological Word Truth Life Bible Series

WordTruthLifeBible.com

Posts 2205
Mark | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 30 2014 1:14 PM

Mark Barnes:
Don't be nervous Smile. Keep asking. That's how most 'advanced' people got to where they are — by asking 'dumb' questions from those who knew more than they!

This really is great advice.  I have found it to be true over the years.  If an answer is given that the user should go to the Wiki, and a person does not know what that is, a follow up question asking what it is will give the answer.  I have found most to be very helpful and patient.

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