[resolved]Search syntax and other issues with Spanish UI

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Posts 85
Ruben Gomez | Forum Activity | Posted: Thu, Jan 15 2015 3:47 AM

I'm crossposting this from the Spanish forum (https://community.logos.com/forums/t/99246.aspx) in the hopes that maybe Logos programmers can throw some light on the issues I'm having.

In the latest version of Logos 6 for Mac (Yosemite), if I run a search for {Speaker <Person Jesus>} in Reina Valera Revisada (1960) with the UI in English it works as expected. However, if I change the UI to Spanish, it returns no hits. I've tried changing using "Orador" or "Hablante" instead of "Speaker", to no avail. I cannot understand why these changes in the search syntax when I change the UI language, and could not find any info about it either.

Furthermore, if I use the English UI all the interactive resources (Psalms Explorer and so on) appear in Spanish, despite the fact that I have a license for these resources in English as well as Spanish. What I'm requesting is this: I want to have everything in English when I use the English UI and everything in Spanish when the UI is set to Spanish. Right now I seem to be locked out of my English interactive resources no matter what UI I use.

Thanks in advance for your help on this.

Rubén Gómez

Posts 100
Richard Wilson | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 15 2015 4:18 AM

For the search, you could try

Speaker <Persona Jesus>

The reason is that the Spanish translation (as all of the translations) is incomplete, and when a term is translated it is put in the other language, otherwise the English term is used. "Speaker" has been added fairly recently as a term to translate, and has not been done yet. But Person has been translated. I know this, only because I am doing the translation in Italian, but can look at what has been done in other languages. As the translations are crowd sourced and done externally to Logos by volunteers, there is not much Logos can do about it. Except pay the translators? Otherwise the UI (including the search terms) will always be a mix of English and Spanish.

Posts 85
Ruben Gomez | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 15 2015 4:49 AM

Thank you, Richard, for the quick reply. I understand all about translation/localization, since I'm a translator and did the original Spanish localization work for Logos 3 or 4 (I can't remember exactly...). In my not so humble opinion, crowd sourced translation is a terrible idea in the long run that ends up making Logos look very unprofessional. The current version of the program for Mac has a handful of quite unacceptable terms ("Quitar" for "Quit" or "Saltear" for "Skip" being prime examples of what I'm saying). But I'm digressing...

I updated to version 6.0b today and "{Speaker <Person Jesucristo>}" works with the Spanish UI now. However, when I change the UI to English, now all my Interactive Tools have disappeared. Please help!

UPDATE: None of the Interactive Tools can be accessed via the Tools menu, and when I go to my Library I can't find any of the English Tools (e.g., Psalms Explorer), only the Spanish ones (e.g., Explorador de Salmos). Let me repeat that my license includes BOTH the English and the Spanish Interactive Tools, so I should have all of them.

Rubén Gómez

Posts 9028
Forum MVP
NB.Mick | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 15 2015 5:16 AM

 

Richard Wilson:

For the search, you could try Speaker <Persona Jesus> The reason is that the Spanish translation (as all of the translations) is incomplete, and when a term is translated it is put in the other language, otherwise the English term is used. "Speaker" has been added fairly recently as a term to translate, and has not been done yet. But Person has been translated. I know this, only because I am doing the translation in Italian, but can look at what has been done in other languages. As the translations are crowd sourced and done externally to Logos by volunteers, there is not much Logos can do about it. Except pay the translators? Otherwise the UI (including the search terms) will always be a mix of English and Spanish.

Richard,

thanks for chiming in - I hope it helps the Spanish users to use Logos. But your answer points to a major usability issue in localized UIs.The same has been brought up in the German language forum as well.

I somewhat understand the rationale behind translating commands (even though I get angry about it everytime I have to input a formula in localized Excel) - after all there are users who use the localized UI because they don't speak English. But in this case, there needs to be a full licalization, not a half-baked mix. And this would include not only the non-translated commands, but the examples, the help files, the instructional training material (including videos...). To make matters worse, the crowd-sourced localization page seems to take projects offline, when Logos deems them completed, so there's no way to 'cheat' even for power users.

As you explained, this issue likely is going to stay with us and grow ever larger the more localizations there are - and every change in the software will induce a ripple effect into the local UIs.

However, I see two things Logos can do: 

  • giving us a band-aid: have a list of all commands, search parameters etc. that are ever input by the user into Logos and make that a spreadsheet: first column English, then the local translations. Especially since much of the available material in the wiki, the training videos, the mobile.Ed courses etc. is only available in English, this would allow users to construct their command and searches based on the examples that are in English. And it would show which words are translated - and how! - and which are not.
    (Aside: while the clamoring about software documentation has become a bit overbearing these days, a list of computer-understood input possibilities in my opinion is crucial element of it, for all UI languages. And if Faithlife won't do the spreadsheet version, some volunteers might set this up easily on the wiki provided they get the lists in the respective languages)  
  • fix the problem by leaving the Microsoft-beaten track: this track is the "a UI language is a UI language, period" approach which forces me to remember or lookup ZAEHLENWENN when I want to write COUNTIF in a formula. But given the limited vocabulary and small chance of collisions, there is no compelling reason not to have the command parser / search string interpreter recognize input in local language OR in English. This way, everybody could use existing examples or knowledge for commands and searches.
     

Running Logos 7 latest (beta) version on Win 10

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Bradley Grainger (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 15 2015 11:17 AM

Ruben Gomez:
n my not so humble opinion, crowd sourced translation is a terrible idea in the long run that ends up making Logos look very unprofessional.

Our Spanish translation is done in-house (although our translators use Crowdin to manage the translations). As we recruit more localised product managers (see https://community.logos.com/forums/t/69557.aspx) we'll shift away from 100% crowd-sourced to a mix to 100% in-house.

Ruben Gomez:
The current version of the program for Mac has a handful of quite unacceptable terms ("Quitar" for "Quit" or "Saltear" for "Skip" being prime examples of what I'm saying).

I've passed your feedback on to our translators. 

(Is it possible that these words are a difference between Castilian and Latin American Spanish?)

Ruben Gomez:
However, when I change the UI to English, now all my Interactive Tools have disappeared. Please help!

I'll report this problem.

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Bradley Grainger (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 15 2015 11:20 AM

Ruben Gomez:
Let me repeat that my license includes BOTH the English and the Spanish Interactive Tools, so I should have all of them.

Are you sure that it includes both? I'm not actually seeing them unlocked on your account. Which product(s) have you purchased that includes both English and Spanish interactive tools?

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Bradley Grainger (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 15 2015 11:33 AM

Ruben Gomez:
UPDATE: None of the Interactive Tools can be accessed via the Tools menu, and when I go to my Library I can't find any of the English Tools (e.g., Psalms Explorer), only the Spanish ones (e.g., Explorador de Salmos). Let me repeat that my license includes BOTH the English and the Spanish Interactive Tools, so I should have all of them.

Failure to show the Spanish Interactives on the Tools menu in the English UI (when you own only Spanish but not English interactives) is a bug and I've filed a case.

As far as I can tell, your other UI concerns have been resolved in 6.0b; please post back if I missed something.

Posts 85
Ruben Gomez | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 15 2015 2:57 PM

Bradley Grainger (Faithlife):

Ruben Gomez:
The current version of the program for Mac has a handful of quite unacceptable terms ("Quitar" for "Quit" or "Saltear" for "Skip" being prime examples of what I'm saying).

I've passed your feedback on to our translators. 

(Is it possible that these words are a difference between Castilian and Latin American Spanish?)

I don't want to start a debate over translation issues. I really don't. The short answer is no. If your translators want to take issue with Apple's or Microsoft's standard glossaries, they are welcome to do so.

Bradley Grainger (Faithlife):

Ruben Gomez:
However, when I change the UI to English, now all my Interactive Tools have disappeared. Please help!

I'll report this problem.

I appreciate it. Thanks.

Rubén Gómez

Posts 85
Ruben Gomez | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 15 2015 3:03 PM

Bradley Grainger (Faithlife):

Ruben Gomez:
Let me repeat that my license includes BOTH the English and the Spanish Interactive Tools, so I should have all of them.

Are you sure that it includes both? I'm not actually seeing them unlocked on your account. Which product(s) have you purchased that includes both English and Spanish interactive tools?

Well, I'm having Nathan Smoyer look into this (and I'm extremely grateful for that). IF they are not unlocked, then there's been a serious misunderstanding somewhere. That's the only explanation I can think of right now. IF it is my fault, I'll be glad to apologize and correct the situation.

Thanks again.

Rubén Gómez

Posts 7441
LogosEmployee

Ruben Gomez:
The short answer is no.

Thanks for clarifying. (I asked because I had no idea.) As I said, the feedback has already been passed along to our translators.

Posts 85
Ruben Gomez | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Feb 1 2015 9:57 AM

Just for the record, and much to my chagrin, those English interactive tools were not included in my license and thus were not missing. I was convinced I owned them but Logos thought otherwise... 

Rubén Gómez

Posts 1471
Angela Murashov | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 23 2015 11:43 AM

Bradley Grainger (Faithlife):
Failure to show the Spanish Interactives on the Tools menu in the English UI (when you own only Spanish but not English interactives) is a bug and I've filed a case.

This should be fixed in 6.1.

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